Next Avengers Cartoon

[Dread]

I would have preferred an actual Avengers story with this attention to detail, and this version of Ultron. Not tweenie wanna-be Avengers.

Roger Ebert once stated, "Some movies succeed by following a formula and some fail by following a formula." It all is subjective, of course. But for me, the moments I liked best about the flick didn't involve the kids. Out of all of them, Francis was probably my favorite, because he was the only one who wasn't annoying or incompetant (even if he was a "typical rebel kid"). I dislike how writers associate "common" in adults and children with "being dumber than dirt". Pym's jokes were like scratching a chalkboard for me; for every line that worked, there were about five that didn't. He was very grating. I'd take an entire team of Molly Hayes clones from RUNAWAYS over more Pym from NEXT AVENGERS.

I saw NEXT AVENGERS as the reason why there never will be a proper Avengers cartoons; because network hacks believe that the only way to appeal to kids is with kids, when that isn't true at all. I'm not saying ALL children or teenager characters should be nixed from cartoons. But I am also stating that children can and have loved shows about adult characters. Many of those shows from the 80's and 90's are still beloved by those children as current adults, hence why the DVD's sell well.

I don't want to see Hawkeye's kid having an argument over leadership with Cap's kid; I want to see CLINT BARTON have an argument over leadership with STEVE ROGERS. What verges on insulting about NEXT AVENGERS is that is alludes to dynamics and episodes that have never been translated or adopted into any animation medium, and never will be. Anyone who believes AVENGERS: UNITED THEY STAND from 1999 counts as sufficient enough needs to have their standards checked.

The best attempt to shove a teenage body into a defined franchise for me was BATMAN BEYOND, which displayed far more imagination and creativity than NEXT AVENGERS did, and without any hindsight. The kids in NEXT AVENGERS I saw as stock, cliche stereotypes. I can't imagine it took longer than an hour to come up with their characters for the movie bible. I've seen more imaginative alternate characters in message board RPG's. While I am thankful that Azari didn't spout "urban slang" and no kid rode a skateboard (the iconic example of stock child characters in cartoons since the 80's), that hardly means they were the pinnacle of imagination.

I stand by my belief here that Ultron, Iron Man, and Vision all needed a better, more Avenger centric film for them. Not to be afterthoughts and details to a typical tween hero adventure that follows every beat so well you almost think you've seen the flick already and can predict every single event that follows. So will most children. Hell, kids who are 9-13 now are far more cynical and jaded than ones who were that old in the 80's or 90's. They've had more access to cable and seen a lot more TV (back when I was a kid, cable was still a luxury).

Robbing Pym of the Ultron legacy to hand it to Stark was unforgiveable, especially as it wasn't needed; Ultron needed Stark alive to pump him for info about the kids. Showing so much attention to comic lore and then throwing a large chunk of that away just to add yet more spotlight to Iron Man the year he has a movie is almost shameless pandering.

The Marvel LG films have a history of stupid moves like that; they completely sucked all the drama out of Iron Man's origin in INVINCIBLE IRON MAN by claiming Stark had already built a fleet of armor suits before he was kidnapped by terrorists. Thankfully, the live action film's writers weren't that short-sighted.

It is ironic that a Marvel LG film finally, FINALLY gets a genuine Marvel villain 100% right, and it is in a film with generic kid heroes that are so worthless that Hulk easily upstages their final act. Marvel could have animated ULTRON UNLEASHED and produced a GREAT film that we'd be talking about for years to come. Instead, they merely aspired for "good", middle of the road kiddie fodder for CARTOON NETWORK. A dilemma that has plagued most of the DTV's thus far. Rather than be excellent and take some risks, they hold back to try to apply across the board, and suffer as a result. Kyle & Yost are too used to the restrictions of TV networks, and have not learned to strive above that (or even to TRY), beyond gore.

Bruce Timm and Greg Wiesman, and to some degree Steven E. Gordon always have, and that is why they usually back better work.

 

[Hellstormer]

So I just got to watch the movie even though I bought it Tuesday (school's a *****) and I actually loved it. I really thought it was great and for some reason the music really stood out to me (I never really notice music). I thought each character got a decent amount of characterization and scream time aside from Vision and Ultron. I really liked Azari, but I wish they would've went with the white hair look they had in the credits. Some of the things that bugged me were of course Stark as the Ultron creator. If they would have used the real story then Pym would've probably become a MUCH stronger character. Hawkeye's looked bugged me, he looked kinda Asian for some reason, and I honestly can't see Clint naming his kid Francis, it's just not like him. I really wish they would've shown who Hawkeye's mom was though. Finally it would've been nice if the kids picked some codenames at the end.

 

[Artistsean]

It sort of reminds me, although I haven't seen it yet, of Mutant X. When it was first announced everyone was psyched, I think. Then it was announced that it had nothing to do with the actual comic, just the name and some ideas about mutants.
When I heard this announced I thought it was Young Avengers animated. But it wasn't and that was disappointing.

But I haven't seen it. Is it any good? How does it compare to the animated marvel movies: Ultimate Avengers, Dr. Strange, Iron Man?
What about DC animated stuff like JLU, Superman, Batman Beyond?

 

[Hellstormer]

It doesn't touch any DC stuff (maybe Doomsday), but as far as Marvel movies I'd probably put it between Ultimate Avengers and Ultimate Avengers 2. It's not quite as good as the first, but much better then the latter.

 

[Dread]

Hellstormer and I will have to agree to disagree. I saw it as network tween jibberish with some excellent peaks at a better Avenger film sprinkled throughout. It was more of a tease than Zelda on the 1989 LEGEND OF ZELDA cartoon.

Out of all of the Marvel/LG animated DTV's, I'd rate them in quality like this:

1). Ultimate Avengers
2). Doctor Strange
3). Ultimate Avengers 2
4). Next Avengers
5). Invincible Iron Man.

All of them, BTW, can't hold a candle to the recent WB DC DTV's, even the rehash work SUPERMAN: DOOMSDAY, or the two HELLBOY ANIMATED flicks.

 

[DOG LIPS]

I don't know if it was my low expectations, but I really enjoyed this. It was pretty good, IMHO. I really liked the story/scenery/etc. Hulk was great, and the kids were interesting. Ultron kicked all kinds of buttocks.

 

[Dread]

Perhaps I would be more forgiving of the product's flaws if I had any faith that we will ever see a faithful animated movie, series of movies or TV series starring the ACTUAL 616 Avengers before I die of old age. Shows like this, starring tween kids that were made by focus groups and hit off every storyline cliche as if adhering to a checklist, give me doubts about that.

True, an AVENGERS film is in the pipeline for 2011-2012. But that is presuming that movies for CAPTAIN AMERICA, THOR, and, heaven help me, ANT-MAN don't all bomb (or dramatically underperform, like INCREDIBLE HULK). And then, whatever cartoon that comes after won't be like 616- it will be like the movies.

No, the time to a genuine Avengers show is NOW. It will get both kids and adults psyched for a flick. Much as the JL/U series airing on CN for years helped set the stage for a feature film, that because it is WB collapsed onto itself. Marvel can learn from such mistakes.

If Marvel was an interested in an Avengers cartoon as they always are in X-Men or Spider-Man, they could have a few years on TV to get more kids psyched for a big screen version, or even on pictures starring solo Avengers first. It seems like a logical investment. So logical, in fact, that it will never happen.

 

[RAMORE]

It sort of reminds me, although I haven't seen it yet, of Mutant X. When it was first announced everyone was psyched, I think. Then it was announced that it had nothing to do with the actual comic, just the name and some ideas about mutants.
When I heard this announced I thought it was Young Avengers animated. But it wasn't and that was disappointing.

But I haven't seen it. Is it any good? How does it compare to the animated marvel movies: Ultimate Avengers, Dr. Strange, Iron Man?
What about DC animated stuff like JLU, Superman, Batman Beyond?

Sort of but Mutant X rocked so hard they should have brought most of those characters over to 616!!

 

[RAMORE]

Perhaps I would be more forgiving of the product's flaws if I had any faith that we will ever see a faithful animated movie, series of movies or TV series starring the ACTUAL 616 Avengers before I die of old age. Shows like this, starring tween kids that were made by focus groups and hit off every storyline cliche as if adhering to a checklist, give me doubts about that.

True, an AVENGERS film is in the pipeline for 2011-2012. But that is presuming that movies for CAPTAIN AMERICA, THOR, and, heaven help me, ANT-MAN don't all bomb (or dramatically underperform, like INCREDIBLE HULK). And then, whatever cartoon that comes after won't be like 616- it will be like the movies.

No, the time to a genuine Avengers show is NOW. It will get both kids and adults psyched for a flick. Much as the JL/U series airing on CN for years helped set the stage for a feature film, that because it is WB collapsed onto itself. Marvel can learn from such mistakes.

If Marvel was an interested in an Avengers cartoon as they always are in X-Men or Spider-Man, they could have a few years on TV to get more kids psyched for a big screen version, or even on pictures starring solo Avengers first. It seems like a logical investment. So logical, in fact, that it will never happen.

Agreed done right it could be used as a hype machine but alas...

 

[steelio2006]

Mutant X. that was the tv show right?

 

[GL1]

So the consensus then, is that it wasn't actually a bad film, however, it "should" have been a 616 Avengers film instead... is that what I'm hearing?

To be a Devil's Advocate... isn't that impossible? The instant you show the Avengers origin, and it doesn't match panel for panel, doesn't that make it not 616, maybe 617 or something? If you show a storyline that didn't already occur in the comics, then isn't it non-616 at that point, technically?

How close to 616 do we need to be exactly?

 

[RAMORE]

Mutant X. that was the tv show right?

Oh crap was he talking about that awful live action tv series Mutant x I was talking about the fantastic comic book Mutant X with Havok as lead dog

 

[Docker2.0]

Have the big 3 ever been on any cartoon together even in the 60s? The 90s cartoon didn't make sense becuase for whatever reason they left all of them out and only used 2nd-3rd tier characters. Marvel's 616 big 3 is just waiting to explode with exposure if they were marketed right and can even surpass Marvel's media big 3 of Spidey, Hulk, and Wolverine.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Have the big 3 ever been on any cartoon together even in the 60s? The 90s cartoon didn't make sense becuase for whatever reason they left all of them out and only used 2nd-3rd tier characters. Marvel's 616 big 3 is just waiting to explode with exposure if they were marketed right and can even surpass Marvel's media big 3 of Spidey, Hulk, and Wolverine.

They appeared together in the credits of Avengers: United They Stand.

And that would be the Avengers Big Three, not the 616 Big Three.

 

[Docker2.0]

They appeared together in the credits of Avengers: United They Stand.

And that would be the Avengers Big Three, not the 616 Big Three.

The Avengers big 3 is the 616 big three. Don't tell me you think the media big 3 is bigger than them.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This may be the best effort on these direct to DVD movies yet, but that is not saying much. This movie starts out well, but the ending is completely unsatisfying. It is uber anticlimatic, Thor is a complete jerk, not a fan of the Stark building Ultron change, but I guess they felt it neccessary for the story.

This gets a 6/10. Really messed up the ending, otherwise it would have been better.

 

[Dread]

So the consensus then, is that it wasn't actually a bad film, however, it "should" have been a 616 Avengers film instead... is that what I'm hearing?

To be a Devil's Advocate... isn't that impossible? The instant you show the Avengers origin, and it doesn't match panel for panel, doesn't that make it not 616, maybe 617 or something? If you show a storyline that didn't already occur in the comics, then isn't it non-616 at that point, technically?

How close to 616 do we need to be exactly?

Well, MY opinion was that a lot of NEXT AVENGERS was stock cliches revolving around what have to be the four characters created out of a focus group of network hacks. Remove the kids themselves and the rest of the film's details aren't bad. Especially Vision and Ultron himself (sans the Stark retcon; that was pointless).

It isn't impossible to make a cartoon based around the 616 Avengers and make it good while still updating certain elements. The JUSTICE LEAGUE cartoon was hardly faithful to the "origin" of the JLA, in which they first mobilized to fight Starro. Unlike the JLA, the Avengers haven't had a few CRISIS stories that confuse who the founders were.

The original stories and runs could be condensed, or extracted to core elements. I've seen message board posters both on SHH and Toonzone make some rather compelling episode guides doing this, and they're not being paid to come up with this. It's very possible.

Would I or anyone else want panel-by-panel translations? No, not if you don't realize certain things are dated. But there are ways to do it without making it Ultimate, or simply Xeroxing the 60's stories like the 1966 MARVEL SUPERHEROES show did.

Have the big 3 ever been on any cartoon together even in the 60s? The 90s cartoon didn't make sense becuase for whatever reason they left all of them out and only used 2nd-3rd tier characters. Marvel's 616 big 3 is just waiting to explode with exposure if they were marketed right and can even surpass Marvel's media big 3 of Spidey, Hulk, and Wolverine.

Unless you count Ultimate Avengers, no.

This may be the best effort on these direct to DVD movies yet, but that is not saying much. This movie starts out well, but the ending is completely unsatisfying. It is uber anticlimatic, Thor is a complete jerk, not a fan of the Stark building Ultron change, but I guess they felt it neccessary for the story.

This gets a 6/10. Really messed up the ending, otherwise it would have been better.

Yeah, I saw little reason why Thor couldn't have come down for the final smackdown. It would have been more unique than, sigh, the Hulk again.

 

[Dr. Fate]

I just watched it last night and my thought in an nutshell is this - it feels like Marvel's attempt at Teen Titans, specifically the Teen Titans that aired on Cartoon Network a while back, albeit slightly less silly. Some of this was amusing and some of it was just UGH. I can't say I'd recommend it to others.

 

[BizarroAids]

I finally got the chance to see it. I liked it, alot more than I thought I was going to. I enjoyed seeing 616 Avengers and the overall story. The kids weren't as annoying as I thought they were going to be, and sometimes they had some funny lines.

Old Hulk was a pretty cool visual. I wouldn't mind seeing something like this again. Glad I bought it.t: Marvel keeps them coming with their Animated Projects.

 

[RAMORE]

Saw at Walmart and resisted the urge to spend 15 dollars. I'll get it for free from the Library

 

[Blade X]

Does anyone know how well this movie is selling?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah, I saw little reason why Thor couldn't have come down for the final smackdown. It would have been more unique than, sigh, the Hulk again.

Thor is just a complete jerk. He may rule Asgard, but come on, sitting by and letting your friends all die horrbily in the Ultron take over, and then you let your daughter contantly cry out for your affection, and you sit by until she has a near death experience!!! Completely unacceptable, and he is a jerk.

Also, the ending is just so lame. I mean

Spoiler

we build up this fight with Ultron. This battle they were destined to have against him. And the Hulk is the one who beats him? Not the kids, whom are trying to live up to their parents legacy? THAT WAS THE ENDNG!!!

Poor creative choice in the ending, and sours an otherwise decent movie

 

[TheVileOne]

Dread, these characters weren't created by a network and network hacks. They were created by the Marvel Studios animation guys including Craig Kyle and Chris Yost. Who are also Marvel comic book writers.

 

[Dread]

I just watched it last night and my thought in an nutshell is this - it feels like Marvel's attempt at Teen Titans, specifically the Teen Titans that aired on Cartoon Network a while back, albeit slightly less silly. Some of this was amusing and some of it was just UGH. I can't say I'd recommend it to others.

Yeah, I got that vibe as well.

If Marvel wants to make a stab at a TEEN TITANS sort of show, I have two words: POWER PACK.

Does anyone know how well this movie is selling?

No clue, but the Avenger themes DTV's have usually been selling well. I imagine it is outselling DOCTOR STRANGE.

Thor is just a complete jerk. He may rule Asgard, but come on, sitting by and letting your friends all die horrbily in the Ultron take over, and then you let your daughter contantly cry out for your affection, and you sit by until she has a near death experience!!! Completely unacceptable, and he is a jerk.

Also, the ending is just so lame. I mean

Spoiler

we build up this fight with Ultron. This battle they were destined to have against him. And the Hulk is the one who beats him? Not the kids, whom are trying to live up to their parents legacy? THAT WAS THE ENDNG!!!

Poor creative choice in the ending, and sours an otherwise decent movie

To me, the ending symbolized the indecision of the film; it force fed us the child characters, feeling them a proper way to have an "all audience" film than an Avenger movie proper. Then, at a moment's notice, the kids can have their movie stolen from them by Iron Man or Hulk. Because those are the "money" characters. So my thought was, since both are founding Avengers anyway, a mainstream 616 adaptation could have accomplished the same end without the stock kids.

And I agree, Thor was made very stand-off-ish. He seemed more in character in ULTIMATE AVENGERS 2 than here. I didn't buy that he wouldn't have tried to avenge his friends or help his daughter either. I understood the point (the "kids have to stand on their own" moral), Thor came off like a cad. He has a daughter with a random mother who isn't worth even a mention, allows his friend to raise the kid, and then makes the girl "earn" even the slightest recognition or affection (and only at the brink of her death)? Sheesh.

Thor was always a "man of Midguard" and to me it was a shame he didn't at least show up for the final battle. Hulk and Thor tearing Ultron in two would have packed more weight. Then again, so would have this been an actual Avengers film.

Dread, these characters weren't created by a network and network hacks. They were created by the Marvel Studios animation guys including Craig Kyle and Chris Yost. Who are also Marvel comic book writers.

I didn't say the characters were created by "network hacks". I said they were made AS IF they were made for "network hacks".

Here's an analogy. Experiments were once done with generations of flies raised in a closed jar and who never knew any confines outside of it. In one trial, the lid is removed. Some adventurous flies, despite their upbringing, leave the jar for better pastures. Others remain in the jar no matter what, not willing to test accepted limits.

Criag Kyle and Chris Yost can be talented writers who have written a range of material (some good, bad, mediocre, and even excellent). But I believe they have no ability to write beyond the limitations of TV, even with a DTV where those limitations are not there. Or at least they haven't displayed any such inclination in any of the DTV's they've worked on. The lid of the jar is removed, but they remain inside. Much as the expectations and desires of network, usually WB themed hacks are not there, but by condition, they seek to make something that matches such expectations.

So instead of an Avenger film proper, which due to the details of this movie I believe they genuinely wanted to make, they create five stock, cliche child character stereotypes and go for an idea worthy of Kid's WB; kid heroes trained by one crusty old "retired" adult hero. This was basically AVENGERS BEYOND, only with little of the imagination or depth. And BEYOND was launched a decade ago.

Bruce Timm, Greg Weisman, they've always sought to bend or brake the limitations of TV or expectations of network people. Yost and Kyle...not so much. That is their limitation with the DTV's. Instead of reaching for the stars, they reach for the stones.

I was willing to admit I was wrong about Kyle & Yost's FANTASTIC FOUR: WGH from 2006; that didn't break records for action or originality, but it was fun and had a lot of heart and interaction. But this....felt very much like a typical franchise product of something. I've seen a dozen pilots episodes like it, and it offered nothing original aside excellent versions of Ultron and Vision who of course had to take a back seat or, in the face of Ultron, trade barbs with babies. Hulk even virtually beats him off camera. He was the first Marvel villain I felt who was translated perfectly from page to small screen, and he's in a movie facing threats that are beneath him. All of the movie's best moments came not as a result of the kids, but the details around them or the adult characters.

And seriously? No one could figure out, "piss off the Hulk enough and throw him at Ultron" for 12 damn years!?

"Inside the box" thinking like the production of this movie is why we haven't, and likely never will have, a 616 Avengers cartoon proper.

 

[Dr. Fate]

Yeah, I got that vibe as well.

If Marvel wants to make a stab at a TEEN TITANS sort of show, I have two words: POWER PACK.



No clue, but the Avenger themes DTV's have usually been selling well. I imagine it is outselling DOCTOR STRANGE.



To me, the ending symbolized the indecision of the film; it force fed us the child characters, feeling them a proper way to have an "all audience" film than an Avenger movie proper. Then, at a moment's notice, the kids can have their movie stolen from them by Iron Man or Hulk. Because those are the "money" characters. So my thought was, since both are founding Avengers anyway, a mainstream 616 adaptation could have accomplished the same end without the stock kids.

And I agree, Thor was made very stand-off-ish. He seemed more in character in ULTIMATE AVENGERS 2 than here. I didn't buy that he wouldn't have tried to avenge his friends or help his daughter either. I understood the point (the "kids have to stand on their own" moral), Thor came off like a cad. He has a daughter with a random mother who isn't worth even a mention, allows his friend to raise the kid, and then makes the girl "earn" even the slightest recognition or affection (and only at the brink of her death)? Sheesh.

Thor was always a "man of Midguard" and to me it was a shame he didn't at least show up for the final battle. Hulk and Thor tearing Ultron in two would have packed more weight. Then again, so would have this been an actual Avengers film.



I didn't say the characters were created by "network hacks". I said they were made AS IF they were made for "network hacks".

Here's an analogy. Experiments were once done with generations of flies raised in a closed jar and who never knew any confines outside of it. In one trial, the lid is removed. Some adventurous flies, despite their upbringing, leave the jar for better pastures. Others remain in the jar no matter what, not willing to test accepted limits.

Criag Kyle and Chris Yost can be talented writers who have written a range of material (some good, bad, mediocre, and even excellent). But I believe they have no ability to write beyond the limitations of TV, even with a DTV where those limitations are not there. Or at least they haven't displayed any such inclination in any of the DTV's they've worked on. The lid of the jar is removed, but they remain inside. Much as the expectations and desires of network, usually WB themed hacks are not there, but by condition, they seek to make something that matches such expectations.

So instead of an Avenger film proper, which due to the details of this movie I believe they genuinely wanted to make, they create five stock, cliche child character stereotypes and go for an idea worthy of Kid's WB; kid heroes trained by one crusty old "retired" adult hero. This was basically AVENGERS BEYOND, only with little of the imagination or depth. And BEYOND was launched a decade ago.

Bruce Timm, Greg Weisman, they've always sought to bend or brake the limitations of TV or expectations of network people. Yost and Kyle...not so much. That is their limitation with the DTV's. Instead of reaching for the stars, they reach for the stones.

I was willing to admit I was wrong about Kyle & Yost's FANTASTIC FOUR: WGH from 2006; that didn't break records for action or originality, but it was fun and had a lot of heart and interaction. But this....felt very much like a typical franchise product of something. I've seen a dozen pilots episodes like it, and it offered nothing original aside excellent versions of Ultron and Vision who of course had to take a back seat or, in the face of Ultron, trade barbs with babies. Hulk even virtually beats him off camera. He was the first Marvel villain I felt who was translated perfectly from page to small screen, and he's in a movie facing threats that are beneath him. All of the movie's best moments came not as a result of the kids, but the details around them or the adult characters.

And seriously? No one could figure out, "piss off the Hulk enough and throw him at Ultron" for 12 damn years!?

"Inside the box" thinking like the production of this movie is why we haven't, and likely never will have, a 616 Avengers cartoon proper.

Dread, I agree 110%.