Justice League Next version of Superman needs to be powered down...a lot!!!

[valmont]

Not that he "should" but that he "could" in time..train as she did. Learn.

In STM, Superman "learns" the knowledge of 11 known galaxies and has a brain hundreds of thousands of years more advanced than humans.

WW has lived most of her life cloistered on an island living in a cave!

Only kidding, but you must see that he "could" - he "has" the ability to learn the things she knows...don't you. WW can never acquire or "learn" the power he has. It is in his DNA.

Don't diminish her role by trying to compare apples to apples. This is apples to oranges. Different animals. A tiger cant fly, but if an eagle lands near it the eagle has no chance just as a great white shark, terror of the seas has no chance fighting a mouse if the fight happens on land. The mouse just has to step back a wait...

Wait, what makes you think that DCEU Diana could never find some inner god power that would boost her powers?

Lol saying that a weaker character can never win against a more powerful one goes against the fighting/action genra itself. Every hero/superhero have beat someone stronger, faster...so your comparisons are ridiculous.

Since you've gone in full ironic mode, I don't see any reasons to continue to talk to you. If you enjoyed this movie, more power to you.

 

[souperman]

Wait, what makes you think that DCEU Diana could never find some inner god power that would boost her powers?

Lol saying that a weaker character can never win against a more powerful one goes against the fighting/action genra itself. Every hero/superhero have beat someone stronger, faster...so your comparisons are ridiculous.

Since you've gone in full ironic mode, I don't see any reasons to continue to talk to you. If you enjoyed this movie, more power to you.

I did say, strictly going by the movie versions...

... your logic is faulty and you take this WAY more seriously than I do...

Oh well...

 

[valmont]

Whatever...

 

[metaphysician]

*cough* The idea that Diana has some kind of "super mode" relevant to this, is not really supported by the movies. Note that in BvS, she didn't enter some kind of "super mode" when fighting Doomsday. She just. . . fought Doomsday. And did about as well against him as Superman did, albeit in different ways.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I suppose my question is this. If you establish that Superman is the strongest being on the planet (or universe, for that matter), why does it matter that he be impervious to nuclear bombs or that he can push a planet out of its orbital rotation? Why does he have to be that strong?

What's the issue here? Is it that Superman has to be the strongest character in the DC canon, or that he has to be limitless? Because you can easily accomplish the former without having to do the latter.

The reason Superman pushes planets and survives nuclear blasts is the same reason every other superhero occasionally does things that are flat out crazy and unrealistic. Same reason Flash can time travel, fly like a helicopter by spinning his arms and move through walls, or Hulk can keep getting stronger indefinitely because his anger is infinite, same reason Wolverine can literally heal from anything, including being reduced to a skeleton and decapitated. It isn't just Superman fans who like to see their heroes going beyond the impossible, so maybe it's time to stop pinning this "Superman is too powerful and unrelatable" crap on him all the time.

But that's what I find funny also, if he's so powerful and unrelatable, why are all these fanboys so convinced that their favorite heroes could own him in a fight? Wouldn't that make them also too powerful? If Hulk is infinitely strong, Iron Man's suit infinitely advanced, Flash infinitely fast, Green Lantern only limited by his creativity, and Thor a literal freakin' GOD, why are they not considered "too powerful"? The paradox of comic books. Your favorite hero is too powerful but my favorite hero makes him look like a wimp.

 

[TheGDBatman]

The problem with having Superman being overpowered is that he loses an element of humanity and how relatable he is. Not to mention the stakes will evaporate because we know he's indestructible and all powerful, so there's no way anyone can stop him or put his life at risk (short of using kryptonite). It's a problem that's been present since he was first created imo.

 

[heatvision38]

The reason Superman pushes planets and survives nuclear blasts is the same reason every other superhero occasionally does things that are flat out crazy and unrealistic. Same reason Flash can time travel, fly like a helicopter by spinning his arms and move through walls, or Hulk can keep getting stronger indefinitely because his anger is infinite, same reason Wolverine can literally heal from anything, including being reduced to a skeleton and decapitated. It isn't just Superman fans who like to see their heroes going beyond the impossible, so maybe it's time to stop pinning this "Superman is too powerful and unrelatable" crap on him all the time.

But that's what I find funny also, if he's so powerful and unrelatable, why are all these fanboys so convinced that their favorite heroes could own him in a fight? Wouldn't that make them also too powerful? If Hulk is infinitely strong, Iron Man's suit infinitely advanced, Flash infinitely fast, Green Lantern only limited by his creativity, and Thor a literal freakin' GOD, why are they not considered "too powerful"? The paradox of comic books. Your favorite hero is too powerful but my favorite hero makes him look like a wimp.

Well said.

 

[Tempus Fugit]

The exact power level of the character is less important than a consistent display of that power level and consistent characterization.

So far, in the three movies we've had, that doesn't really seem to be the case in my opinion.

 

[DerekLake]

My own two cents... I liked Superman’s power level in MOS. It was good. Even that film indicated he could get more powerful. I also do think Superman's fight with Wonder Woman and Aquaman was a little underwhelming, but it didn’t really seem to me that he was shown to be exceptionally overpowered. He IS stronger than Wonder Woman, despite the fact that she WAS holding back (she never really fights him in this scene). If anything, I felt the lasso itself was a bit underpowered. Being magic-based, it should have actually affected him more than it did (at least hurting him a little bit). And she should have actually fought him, because from her solo film she is clearly a lot stronger than JL showed her to be.

 

[CLARKY]

At this point, he's just too damn powerful and unbeatable. You got to whip out kryptonite or Doomsday to stand a chance. The way he ragdolls the entire Justice League, you almost wonder why the rest of them are even needed. A fight with Wonder Woman should be tough...one headbutt and she's out like a light.

The character is unrelatable. No sense of danger with him. It's like watching a video game.

Look at Thor. You could say he's Marvel's Superman (when it comes to strength and power versatlity). But though he's incredibly strong, he's not shown to be virtually unbeatable. He can be knocked unconscious etc.

Taking Superman back to Fleischer power levels is a bit much (they've pretty much done that with Wonder Woman though, and it hasn't hurt her appeal any. She leaps, not flies). But post-crisis John Byrne level at least, where other super-powered heroes and villains can give him a real fight or beat him. And he shouldn't be anywhere near as fast as Flash.

I disagree with you here. Being unrelatable has never been a problem of Superman for me. It may be due to the fact that people think of him as a muscle guy. You compare him to Thor, but Thor is not the most clever nor subtle avenger. Superman is clever and subtle, and he has a heart.
Look at BvS (I disliked the movie but that's not the point) Superman is all powerfull and yet is beaten/broken by Lex luthor when he shows the photos of his mother!
There's always a way to make him suffer, and I've never connected this to his power level.
Just increase the stakes. It's related to that, increase the stakes. Like they do it with the Flash everywhere : he's like the god of speed but even he can be too slow sometimes or has to face a problem in 2 locations at the same time. It's because his ennemies are very specific to him and what works with him wouldn't work with Aquaman or Batman, whereas I always felt people wanted a "batmanization" of Superman's rogues.
I mean, Doomsday canhurt himphysicaally, Brainiac is able to hurt him physically and his mind, Zod too, because he's kryptonian, Doomsday too, and Luthor can destroy is heart, Parasite can suck his power, whatever level of might Superman has. Darkseid too, can affect both his mind, and his heart. Same with the Eradicator.
I mean, in MoS, Superman exerts himself quite a lot.
I don't want to see him vunerable to conventionnal threats. What's interesting is to find/make drama with a "god". This is the cool thing. If Superman is down by conventionnal threats, he lose his appeal to me because he'll end up as a Thor or a Hulk. Superman smaches. " Supes Smash! " Superman is bigger than that.
Superman greatest power comes from his heart, and I have always been able to connect to him through that, I don't need him to be weaken down.

 

[heatvision38]

My own two cents... I liked Superman’s power level in MOS. It was good. Even that film indicated he could get more powerful. I also do think Superman's fight with Wonder Woman and Aquaman was a little underwhelming, but it didn’t really seem to me that he was shown to be exceptionally overpowered. He IS stronger than Wonder Woman, despite the fact that she WAS holding back (she never really fights him in this scene). If anything, I felt the lasso itself was a bit underpowered. Being magic-based, it should have actually affected him more than it did (at least hurting him a little bit). And she should have actually fought him, because from her solo film she is clearly a lot stronger than JL showed her to be.

Why would the lasso hurt him?

 

[spider-neil]

With Superman's power level it's so hard to the movies at a modest level that still looks good. Look at Spider-Man Homecoming. They were able to scale the budget right back because you don't need end of the world stakes. You can't do that with Superman.

Also, making Superman as fast as the Flash and way more powered than Wonder Woman makes those characters redundant.

 

[elgaz]

Being magic-based, it should have actually affected him more than it did (at least hurting him a little bit). And she should have actually fought him, because from her solo film she is clearly a lot stronger than JL showed her to be.

I thought the 'magic' of the lasso was just that it compels whoever it touches to tell the truth. And it seems to make it incredibly strong, as we saw it looped around Doomsday in BvS and even with his insane strength he couldn't break it.

I don't think it actually hurts someone just by touching them. WW never actually managed to restrain Superman with it, she threw it and he caught the end and used that to pull her towards him.

 

[DerekLake]

Why would the lasso hurt him?

I thought the 'magic' of the lasso was just that it compels whoever it touches to tell the truth. And it seems to make it incredibly strong, as we saw it looped around Doomsday in BvS and even with his insane strength he couldn't break it.

I don't think it actually hurts someone just by touching them. WW never actually managed to restrain Superman with it, she threw it and he caught the end and used that to pull her towards him.

It seemed to hurt Steve Trevor. But also, yes, it did seem to work better in restraining Doomsday (for a little longer) than it does Superman.

 

[Loki882]

It "hurts" them when they try to resist it's affects. They say as much to Steve:

"The Lasso of Hestia will compel you to tell the truth. Resistance is pointless" (another Amazons jumps in) "And painful."

Honestly the entire JL jobbed out just to make Superman look good (it's just that Diana came out of it looking especially bad since we have TWO previously films showing how her skills SHOULD be characterized, which they weren't in JL).

She and Aquaman together couldn't beat Steppenwolf, whereas Superman handled him like he was nothing (seriously Steppenwolf couldn't land a single blow on Superman). And he even has that quip about "is this guy still bothering you," which made Arthur and Diana look even worse because Superman isn't taking the guy that they struggled with so much even remotely seriously.

Also Superman throws her around like a ragdoll, and can hold her and Aquaman with one hand each and they cannot escape. Also apparently the film forgot about her supposedly-vaunted speed and "combat prowess" because she uses neither during either the Superman confrontation nor the Steppenwolf fight.

I mean even the whole point of the team is rendered moot.

BVS: "Lets put together a team to defend the world in Superman's absence."

JL: "Ok we've put the team together, now lets got bring back Superman without even trying to do things ourselves first. Because clearly he's the key to everything now."

You cannot screw up much more than if you make the team who's NAME IS IN THE TITLE look superfluous next to ONE guy.

 

[DeadlyDiarrhea]

I can understand why Superman is depicted as the most powerful, by the simple virtue of excelling very wide array of powers that makes him the most versatile of the bunch. He's extremely strong, he can fly, he's very fast, he's got ice breath, heat vision, x-ray vision, super perception, etc. He really is the best all-rounder.

Unfortunately, some of the more rabid fans want him to be a complete god that overwhelm everything physically just for the sake of it, which just reeks of fan wank. Those who justify that by saying that his enemies shouldn't even try to challenge him physically by finding alternate ways to challenge his character and morals conveniently forget that the very same applies to every other members of the League; furthermore, how does that justify why Superman needs to be overwhelmingly more powerful than everyone else? Making him overwhelmingly powerful compared to the rest of the League for the sake of it is frankly unjustifiable.

Furthermore, how powerful these characters are, even relative to each other, is inherently malleable and is based on the writer. Trying to justify a character's power by cherrypicking their most powerful moments ever depicted in the comics devolves into a useless fan wank endeavor by all sides.

Diana should have comparable strength and superior combat training, but she lacks most of Superman's powers. Aquaman should also have comparable strength as well as control of the waters, but again he lacks most of Superman's powers. The Flash should be the fastest member of the League, bar none; if Superman can match his speed then it renders the Flash completely redundant. It's the Justice League, not Superman and his helpers.

 

[heatvision38]

It seemed to hurt Steve Trevor. But also, yes, it did seem to work better in restraining Doomsday (for a little longer) than it does Superman.

It was hurting Trevor the longer he refused to tell the truth. He said it was getting hot.

It did seem WW had just started getting through to Superman as Superman was seemingly starting to come around when she told him he was Kal-El, last son of Krypton, then he yanked her towards him and it was over. If she has the lasso around him and he couldn't escape (though Superman can find other ways to escape, ala flight or movie at super speed to try to yank the lasso out of WW's hands), then it might have worked.

 

[Bren]

I have no problem with a holding-back WW getting beaten by a somewhat out-of-control Superman. She wasn't even trying to fight him really, just stopping him, and yes he's physically stronger.
I also got the impression Flash is faster as he dodged Superman most of the time. And it was made VERY clear he's an utter noob at this point.

I don't think Aquaman and Cyborg should be able to stand up to Superman normally anyway, same as they shouldn't be able to against WW.

My only issue is WW should have been better against Steppenwolf or Steppenwolf be better against Superman. Simple.

 

[Playco Armboy]

Superman shouldn't have been able to clown Steppenwolf so freakin' easily. Not when the rest of the team was being overwhelmed by the latter without a whole lot of trouble. It was embarrassing for the rest of the League.

It was like a bunch of toddlers fighting a six-year old and then an adult has to step in and stop the fight.

Worst, there wasn't even, like, a team highlight sequence with each of the League demonstrating their individually unique effectiveness in bringing down Steppenwolf. Even Wonder Woman breaking Steppenwolf's sword wouldn't have been possible without Superman freezing it first.

 

[Loki882]

It's the fight with the JL and the Steppenwolf fight AND the fact that the JL doesn't even really try to do anything themselves before jumping to the "oh we just need to bring Superman back" option that makes this suck. Because it all adds up to "Superman alone is better than all of them combined, so why even bother with a JL to begin with" as the perception that the audience is left with.

People can claim that "well WW was holding back," or "well if things had continued then the lasso might have worked," which is irrelevant because the movie intentionally made it so that things DIDN'T continue so we don't that for sure. But the perception that's left is "she's nowhere near in his league" for a lot of people because the scene wasn't done well. There's a reason why Marvel doesn't do stuff like this when it's heroes fight each other, because they're not stupid and short-sighted.

 

[Eggyman]

It "hurts" them when they try to resist it's affects. They say as much to Steve:

"The Lasso of Hestia will compel you to tell the truth. Resistance is pointless" (another Amazons jumps in) "And painful."

Honestly the entire JL jobbed out just to make Superman look good (it's just that Diana came out of it looking especially bad since we have TWO previously films showing how her skills SHOULD be characterized, which they weren't in JL).

She and Aquaman together couldn't beat Steppenwolf, whereas Superman handled him like he was nothing (seriously Steppenwolf couldn't land a single blow on Superman). And he even has that quip about "is this guy still bothering you," which made Arthur and Diana look even worse because Superman isn't taking the guy that they struggled with so much even remotely seriously.

Also Superman throws her around like a ragdoll, and can hold her and Aquaman with one hand each and they cannot escape. Also apparently the film forgot about her supposedly-vaunted speed and "combat prowess" because she uses neither during either the Superman confrontation nor the Steppenwolf fight.

I mean even the whole point of the team is rendered moot.

BVS: "Lets put together a team to defend the world in Superman's absence."

JL: "Ok we've put the team together, now lets got bring back Superman without even trying to do things ourselves first. Because clearly he's the key to everything now."

You cannot screw up much more than if you make the team who's NAME IS IN THE TITLE look superfluous next to ONE guy.

Yeh, it hurts you to resist its effects. Its effect is to get you to tell the truth. No one was asking him anything. I agree to a certain extent that due to it being magic based it should hold him in place or whatever but actually hurt him, no.

 

[Eggyman]

I thought his power level in MOS was perfect. Didn't get a good sense of his capabilities in BvS.

 

[heatvision38]

I thought his power level in MOS was perfect. Didn't get a good sense of his capabilities in BvS.

Well, he did survive a nuke. And towed an oil tanker, through the ice. Those are some feats.

 

[souperman]

Well, he did survive a nuke. And towed an oil tanker, through the ice. Those are some feats.

Also in BvS the news clippings on Wallys wall said " shifted tectonic plates. Avoids earthquake. As well as other cool stuff

 

[spider-neil]

Byrne's Superman is brilliant. Depowered Superman could then have compelling stories with actual stakes. With that said, Morrison's Superman is the best Superman story I have ever read and Superman was the most powerful he has ever been, but the thing that made the story compelling is Superman was dying. There was a ticking time bomb. No way on this earth could you write compelling stories for that Superman long term.