Justice League Next version of Superman needs to be powered down...a lot!!!

[Micromind]

With Superman's power level it's so hard to the movies at a modest level that still looks good. Look at Spider-Man Homecoming. They were able to scale the budget right back because you don't need end of the world stakes. You can't do that with Superman.

Also, making Superman as fast as the Flash and way more powered than Wonder Woman makes those characters redundant.

Byrne's Superman is brilliant. Depowered Superman could then have compelling stories with actual stakes. With that said, Morrison's Superman is the best Superman story I have ever read and Superman was the most powerful he has ever been, but the thing that made the story compelling is Superman was dying. There was a ticking time bomb. No way on this earth could you write compelling stories for that Superman long term.

This.

There are very few compelling stories you can tell when Superman is overpowered. They need to depower him otherwise it's not going to have any interesting stories because stakes are not there.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The most compelling Superman stories have him powerful. To me, it is so lazy to say he needs to be depowered. Its like an excuse that avoids the real problems like bad writing and characterization. For bad villains. Luthor can test the strongest version of Superman when written well. And he has no powers.

 

[heatvision38]

Talking about Superman needing to be powered down, they treat him pretty poorly on Supergirl. Sometimes this show tries too hard with the idea of female empowerment. Another line in tonight's episode that basically punks Superman, showing how great Supergirl is at his expense. I can't imagine a show about Robin or Nightwing being allowed to punk Batman to prop up Dick Grayson at Batman's expense. Supergirl is laying it on thick. At this point, I wish they just never even brought Superman on the show and just left him as mysterious.

 

[Anis]

Talking about Superman needing to be powered down, they treat him pretty poorly on Supergirl. Sometimes this show tries too hard with the idea of female empowerment. Another line in tonight's episode that basically punks Superman, showing how great Supergirl is at his expense. I can't imagine a show about Robin or Nightwing being allowed to punk Batman to prop up Dick Grayson at Batman's expense. Supergirl is laying it on thick. At this point, I wish they just never even brought Superman on the show and just left him as mysterious.

What happened?

So having Supergirl embarassed him at the end of season 2 wasn't enough for them?

I feel sorry for any girls who watch this show and take this Superman mistreatment and feel empowered. That's a false empowerment. Shame on the show creaters for trying to convince the world that a knock-off is somehow a superior produce.

 

[heatvision38]

What happened?

So having Supergirl embarassed him at the end of season 2 wasn't enough for them?

I feel sorry for any girls who watch this show and take this Superman mistreatment and feel empowered. That's a false empowerment. Shame on the show creaters for trying to convince the world that a knock-off is somehow a superior produce.

So, it wasn't bad enough that she beats the far more experienced Superman last season because, reasons... then, to further enforce that Supergirl can beat Superman and do anything, they confirm that Superman wasn't weakened by Kryptonite when they discussed it at the Fortress of Solitude later that episode, having Superman say, "No, you beat me fair and square," even though the easy out would have been to say that Superman had been weakened and still was, which is why Kara would be the one to face the Daxamite Queen.

But then to add insult to injury, tonight,

Spoiler

Supergirl was threatened with a potentially powerful Kryptonian opponent, and before she goes to take the character on, she says, "I beat Kal down to the ground when I had to, I'll beat her down too." I mean, writers, why don't you just further stomp Superman into the ground. I get the feeling they added Superman last year in order to prop up Supergirl. And they also took one of the main elements of Superman's mythos, which is that he was the inspiration for the Legion of Superheroes, and they gave that honor to Supergirl. Many times over they have given key Superman story elements to Supergirl. Can they not come up with their own stuff, especially the bigger stuff?

I think this is why many of us who are Superman fans liked seeing Superman kick butt in JL because we are so used to seeing him get chumped in order to prop up other characters, something you would NEVER see happen to Batman.

 

[Anis]

So, it wasn't bad enough that she beats the far more experienced Superman last season because, reasons... then, to further enforce that Supergirl can beat Superman and do anything, they confirm that Superman wasn't weakened by Kryptonite when they discussed it at the Fortress of Solitude later that episode, having Superman say, "No, you beat me fair and square," even though the easy out would have been to say that Superman had been weakened and still was, which is why Kara would be the one to face the Daxamite Queen.

But then to add insult to injury, tonight,

Spoiler

Supergirl was threatened with a potentially powerful Kryptonian opponent, and before she goes to take the character on, she says, "I beat Kal down to the ground when I had to, I'll beat her down too." I mean, writers, why don't you just further stomp Superman into the ground. I get the feeling they added Superman last year in order to prop up Supergirl. And they also took one of the main elements of Superman's mythos, which is that he was the inspiration for the Legion of Superheroes, and they gave that honor to Supergirl. Many times over they have given key Superman story elements to Supergirl. Can they not come up with their own stuff, especially the bigger stuff?

I think this is why many of us who are Superman fans liked seeing Superman kick butt in JL because we are so used to seeing him get chumped in order to prop up other characters, something you would NEVER see happen to Batman.

Thanks for the answer, I've had no interest in watching that show so they can do whatever they want and I'll just regard it as an else world story that never happen in MY universe. They can let her wear pants and let him wear a skirt for all I care. Superman that got beat down fair and square by his knocked off shouldn't be counted as a genuine Superman in the first place.

 

[Loki882]

I'm pretty sure that Robin and Nightwing would be allowed to get the better of Batman if it was THEIR SHOW!! With THEIR name in the title. That's the distinction here, they weren't going to embarrass the title character (which would have ticked off FAR more people) in favor of a guest-star. The film, however, is called "Justice League" not "Superman and his far less useful pals."

Honestly bringing the show into this only further shows how unreasonable some Superman fans are with how "powerful" he should be imo.

 

[pkwy22]

What happened with Green Arrow and the Flash on the Flash's own show...

 

[The Guard]

I didn't think Superman was shown to be more powerful than he's been previously depicted. We haven't seen him carry a building to date, but I don't think anything has been shown that would indicate he cannot do so. He was told to test his limits in MOS, and he's clearly incredibly powerful and durable.

But in JUSTICE LEAGUE, during the final battle, he's tossing Steppenwolf into walls, not through them and then out the other side of buildings and the length of a football field. Not sure what people are pointing to that would indicate that he is amped up from previous power displays.

And as for Superman VS Wonder Woman...I know this has been discussed, but the point of this sequence is quite clearly that he is NOT holding back, and she is. She is trying to contain him, not fight him. There are several moments that indicate this, her lassoing him, and literally saying “Don’t make me do this”. And Diana is still clearly the more skilled warrior, but Superman has pretty much always been, pound for pound, stronger than Wonder Woman. This is not a social commentary on male and female power dynamics, it’s just what these two characters have always been. He's Superman. They're both superpowered. He's bigger and stronger. This gives writers some interesting angles to play with because she, like anyone else regarding Superman, has to rely on skill and their wits to defeat him.

That doesn't mean that he can't lose a fight; any character can; but the story here required the league to be outmatched and for them to need Lois Lane's emotional appeal to Clark. And since this is their first time fighting as a unit, it's not unbelievable that they haven't quite figured out how to work in tandem to stop someone like Superman. Nevermind that they are also only trying to contain him, not fight or harm him.

 

[random_havoc]

No! I loved his power level in this movie.

ditto

 

[random_havoc]

Characters of all power levels can be great if you have a good writer and director. Saying you HAVE to depower him to make it better is laziness and uncreativity.

 

[_Superman_]

I don’t understand why people complain about Superman being more powerful than Wonder Woman because that was always the case. Wonder Woman is just a better fighter than Superman. But I do agree that he shouldn’t be as fast as the Flash although in the comics they have shown Superman to be fast enough to travel through time on his own will plenty of times.

 

[GarudA]

I really liked how Superman showed his power on Superman Vs The Elite.

[YT]yWyj9ORkj8w[/YT]

 

[obredaan]

I'd much rather they focus on the character and his essence. The secondary characters like Jimmy Olsen, Lois and Perry need to be used better so that everything doesn't fall on Superman's shoulders to engage the audience.

I think most people in the general audience don't care about how powerful the character is compared to others. As long as the character is interesting, well acted and most importantly...likeable!

Making a man in his early 30's act like some whiny teen all the time is just off-putting and annoying. Nobody wants to see a grown man doubting himself because people don't like him and Superman is supposed to be above petty stuff like that. He's a grown man so please let him act like one.

 

[heatvision38]

I'm pretty sure that Robin and Nightwing would be allowed to get the better of Batman if it was THEIR SHOW!! With THEIR name in the title. That's the distinction here, they weren't going to embarrass the title character (which would have ticked off FAR more people) in favor of a guest-star. The film, however, is called "Justice League" not "Superman and his far less useful pals."

Honestly bringing the show into this only further shows how unreasonable some Superman fans are with how "powerful" he should be imo.

I don't buy that. No way that Batman would outright get jobbed by Robin or Nightwing without some kind of built in explanation as to why Batman lost. And if that did happen, you know a lot of people would have a problem with that. And then to have Nightwing in a later episode say, "I can beat Batman to the ground when I have to, I can beat so and so also if I need to." Just not gonna happen. And imagine it was Batgirl instead of Robin or Nightwing, and done so just to make Batgirl look good.

With the Superman vs Supergirl fight, they could have easily explained that he had been slightly weakened via the kryponite exposure, but they instead went out of their way to have Superman in a separate scene say he was at full strength trying his hardest. Just because it's Supergirl's show doesn't mean Superman fans don't also watch. You can find a good compromise. Instead, it felt like it was pandering to a female audience. It felt so forced. And this isn't about who is better. Superman is simply the far more experienced of the two and he thought he was fighting Zod to protect the world. As it stands, it seems like they brought in Superman to prop up Supergirl. That's a shame, imo, that a show would feel the need to do that.

As for your last line, I don't see the logic there.

 

[heatvision38]

What happened with Green Arrow and the Flash on the Flash's own show...

Yup, and that didn't make sense to me, either. Flash is running around GA at super speed doing nothing, then he decided to actually attack and hits him many times at superspeed, but GA just takes it like it's no big deal. GA won because it was the Arrowverse and they wanted to show he was still the man and the story dictated it. If that fight happened today, it might go down differently just to show how far along Flash has come, though.

 

[Verick808]

The fact that he is the mightiest being on the planet is an essential part of his character. A god among men. It's why he often feels like he carries the weight of the world on his shoulders. If MM, Supergirl, and WW are as powerful or more powerful than Superman than he simply isn't earth's mightiest hero.

Also, no way Batman loses to Nightwing/Robin/Batgirl or any other member of the family without a reason being written in. He was either injured, outnumbered, caught off guard, tired, going easy them, or it's explained that he's just gotten to the point where his age is holding him back.

 

[Superchan]

I'd much rather they focus on the character and his essence. The secondary characters like Jimmy Olsen, Lois and Perry need to be used better so that everything doesn't fall on Superman's shoulders to engage the audience.

I think most people in the general audience don't care about how powerful the character is compared to others. As long as the character is interesting, well acted and most importantly...likeable!

Making a man in his early 30's act like some whiny teen all the time is just off-putting and annoying. Nobody wants to see a grown man doubting himself because people don't like him and Superman is supposed to be above petty stuff like that. He's a grown man so please let him act like one.

Nicely put and I'll say it again, a lame CGI construct based on a C-level comicbook character like Steppenwolf has no business challenging superman or the JL.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

So he got beat up twice in MoS, got beat up by BATMAN!!! in BvS, but he kicks a$$ once in a movie and he's too powerful?! Jeeze people never satisfied.
Flash should be faster than Superman but he will still get his butt handed to him. I've never once thought Aquaman or Cyborg could withstand him; the only one who can last in a hand to hand fight is WW and I've always had the impression that she isn't as strong as him.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

So he got beat up twice in MoS, got beat up by BATMAN!!! in BvS, but he kicks a$$ once in a movie and he's too powerful?! Jeeze people never satisfied.
Flash should be faster than Superman but he will still get his butt handed to him. I've never once thought Aquaman or Cyborg could withstand him; the only one who can last in a hand to hand fight is WW and I've always had the impression that she isn't as strong as him.

Yeah, James Tucker, producer of Batman: Brave and the Bold and co-producer of Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, said it best. (I never get tired of posting this, btw.)

"I think people love Superman the way they love religion. They don’t know him as a character, like people don’t love Jesus as a character. They love him as a concept, what he represents, which is an all-powerful, kind, pure, salt-of-the-earth icon. But as a character, as a flesh and blood, living, breathing person with a personality… they don’t really get that from him. He’s always more of an icon – he represents an ideal rather than an individual. That means people put on him their own aspirations, their own wishes. Much like religion, they twist Superman to be what they want him to be. So if they want him to be all-powerful and able to push planets out of the way, if you don’t show that they feel cheated. And if he’s not perfect in every way, if you show him vulnerable… We had this problem on Justice League where every time something happened to Superman, there was a complaint. But he has to be vulnerable to something or there’s no story, there’s nothing to overcome. We didn’t do as well as we could have, but we got better at it.’"

 

[Power Cosmic]

The fact that he is the mightiest being on the planet is an essential part of his character. A god among men. It's why he often feels like he carries the weight of the world on his shoulders. If MM, Supergirl, and WW are as powerful or more powerful than Superman than he simply isn't earth's mightiest hero.

Also, no way Batman loses to Nightwing/Robin/Batgirl or any other member of the family without a reason being written in. He was either injured, outnumbered, caught off guard, tired, going easy them, or it's explained that he's just gotten to the point where his age is holding him back.

That's it. Perfectly stated.

 

[elgaz]

There are very few compelling stories you can tell when Superman is overpowered. They need to depower him otherwise it's not going to have any interesting stories because stakes are not there.

The problem here is that they are essentially changing the core character attributes to make the character fit a story. It's a lazier form of writing.

What they should be doing, is crafting a story that fits with the core attributes of the character instead, even if it's somewhat more difficult because that character is immensely powerful. Difficult does not mean impossible.

Superman's huge physical strength does not mean there are no stakes in his stories. There are many, many angles which can be taken by enemies against which physical strength has little meaning. Magic, blackmail, manipulation, physically equal/stronger enemies like Darkseid/Doomsday ........... to name but a few which instantly spring to mind.

 

[Polux]

I didn't think Superman was shown to be more powerful than he's been previously depicted. We haven't seen him carry a building to date, but I don't think anything has been shown that would indicate he cannot do so. He was told to test his limits in MOS, and he's clearly incredibly powerful and durable.

But in JUSTICE LEAGUE, during the final battle, he's tossing Steppenwolf into walls, not through them and then out the other side of buildings and the length of a football field. Not sure what people are pointing to that would indicate that he is amped up from previous power displays.

And as for Superman VS Wonder Woman...I know this has been discussed, but the point of this sequence is quite clearly that he is NOT holding back, and she is. She is trying to contain him, not fight him. There are several moments that indicate this, her lassoing him, and literally saying “Don’t make me do this”. And Diana is still clearly the more skilled warrior, but Superman has pretty much always been, pound for pound, stronger than Wonder Woman. This is not a social commentary on male and female power dynamics, it’s just what these two characters have always been. He's Superman. They're both superpowered. He's bigger and stronger. This gives writers some interesting angles to play with because she, like anyone else regarding Superman, has to rely on skill and their wits to defeat him.

That doesn't mean that he can't lose a fight; any character can; but the story here required the league to be outmatched and for them to need Lois Lane's emotional appeal to Clark. And since this is their first time fighting as a unit, it's not unbelievable that they haven't quite figured out how to work in tandem to stop someone like Superman. Nevermind that they are also only trying to contain him, not fight or harm him.

Agreed; not only makes sense for the Diana and the story the fact that she's holding back trying to contain him, but this is also a first time for Arthur, Vic and Barry; Arthur and Vic are just in the early stages of "testing their limits" in regards to strength (although they're shown to be way stronger in the final fight, with Arthur sending SW flight with a punch, so it's reasonable that they were holding back too); and Ezra has said that they decided to start with Barry still learning about his powers and becoming increasingly faster through several movies, so he's nowhere near as fast as he'll be with a bit more experience.

Just playing devil's advocate here; I don't think the result of this fight should determine how it would play out in the future under different circumstances and more experienced Arthur, Vic and Barry, or with a Diana who actually wants to put him down.

Yeah, James Tucker, producer of Batman: Brave and the Bold and co-producer of Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, said it best. (I never get tired of posting this, btw.)

"I think people love Superman the way they love religion. They don’t know him as a character, like people don’t love Jesus as a character. They love him as a concept, what he represents, which is an all-powerful, kind, pure, salt-of-the-earth icon. But as a character, as a flesh and blood, living, breathing person with a personality… they don’t really get that from him. He’s always more of an icon – he represents an ideal rather than an individual. That means people put on him their own aspirations, their own wishes. Much like religion, they twist Superman to be what they want him to be. So if they want him to be all-powerful and able to push planets out of the way, if you don’t show that they feel cheated. And if he’s not perfect in every way, if you show him vulnerable… We had this problem on Justice League where every time something happened to Superman, there was a complaint. But he has to be vulnerable to something or there’s no story, there’s nothing to overcome. We didn’t do as well as we could have, but we got better at it.’"

And he's totally right.

 

[GreenKToo]

IKR, and while we're at it, lets dumb down Batman, make flash a little slower, WW less warlike, and AQ just holds his breath for like 5 mins.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

ikr, and while we're at it, lets dumb down batman, make flash a little slower, ww less warlike, and aq just holds his breath for like 5 mins.

lmfao!