Nice guys finish last

[AndThePickles]

No one is saying you aren't. I agree with the last part of the post especially, Pickles, communication is key. You can't keep desires hidden (which goes back to that whole 'nice guy' discussion), and if there is consequences to those desires, so be it, they would've come out eventually (possibly in a more unhealthy way). As for the monogamy thing. First, humans are supposedly monogamous by nature. Second, we're not talking about any one's particular circumstance, we're talking about things in general. Third, I think the Dane Cook reference of your screenname has gone out of style (I was just thinking today -- when the last time Dane Cook did anything?)

I should have clarified (was just using myself as an example) - I do not think that monogamy is necessarily "natural." I believe that in society today we have many freedoms, and that includes the choice to be monogamous or not.

It may be out of style, so let's just call it a classic

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

It may be out of style, so let's just call it a classic

The day Dane Cook shows up on Turner Classic Movie I'm just going to shoot myself and be done with it

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

In theory polygamous relationships should work if everyone involved is okay with it but in practice, too many cooks spoils the broth.

In theory, being with one person is a great idea, in practice monogamous marriages don't have an overwhelming degree of success. Not advocating one over the other, personally I've always choosen monogamy, but I can't deny that most marriages end in divorce, and most relationships are not lifelong ones.

 

[JAK®]

In theory, being with one person is a great idea, in practice monogamous marriages don't have an overwhelming degree of success. Not advocating one over the other, personally I've always choosen monogamy, but I can't deny that most marriages end in divorce, and most relationships are not lifelong ones.

But that's the point. If people can't stay with one, how can they stay with more?

People get jealous and possessive.

 

[LOBO3315a]

But that's the point. If people can't stay with one, how can they stay with more?

Immature People get jealous and possessive.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

But that's the point. If people can't stay with one, how can they stay with more?

People get jealous and possessive.

Kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water a little, aren't you? I mean if we're going there I might as well throw out there that I can't walk out on myself, I have to live with myself until I die, so just be alone (or committ suicide). I can appreciate wanting to get married to one person and just sleep with that person, but some people get turned on by the thought or act of others sleeping with their spouse.

 

[JAK®]

Fixed that for you.

I wish it was just limited to immature people.

 

[Spider-Who?]

That's not really your or my call to make. The most f***ed up marriage I've encountered ever was a Christian couple who saved themselves and married out of love. They had all sorts of problems, she got addicted to drugs, he's forced her to stay with him by doing this sh** with their money so it's really hard for them to get divorced. It's just a mess. The one open couple I know couldn't be happier.

Monogamy isn't the problem. And to assume or insinuate that the bad couple's problem was monogamy is ludicrous. Finances is the number one killer of a marriage. Next comes adultery. Then drugs, alcohol and abuse.

Marriage is a religious thing bud.

As well as an emotional, political and economic "thing". But those don't belittle the importance of marriage to most of society.

But he's right, it does.

No it doesn't. What's funny is, to prove his point that there is no indication that marriage vows include NOT having sex with others, he mentioned this: "forsaking all others".

Nevermind that, but if marriage does, in fact, allow for adultery (having sex with some one outside of marriage), then why in the world would adultery be listed in admissible grounds for divorce?

ADULTERY

In order to be divorced on this basis you need to show that your spouse had sexual intercourse during the marriage with someone other than you. You will have to prove that sexual intercourse occurred, which makes this a difficult ground on which to obtain a divorce.

 

[JAK®]

Kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water a little, aren't you? I mean if we're going there I might as well throw out there that I can't walk out on myself, I have to live with myself until I die, so just be alone (or committ suicide). I can appreciate wanting to get married to one person and just sleep with that person, but some people get turned on by the thought or act of others sleeping with their spouse.

I'm not throwing out anything, I'm just pointing out the flaws.

 

[SpideyVille]

In theory, being with one person is a great idea, in practice monogamous marriages don't have an overwhelming degree of success. Not advocating one over the other, personally I've always choosen monogamy, but I can't deny that most marriages end in divorce, and most relationships are not lifelong ones.

I agree, in an ideal world, one in which is what we usually only see in movies, after two people get together because of love, they'd live happily ever after. But that's just not the case in the real world, and I think its more because of changes over time to the idea of marriage and love. People, mostly woman, have more freedom now an no longer feel like they are forced to stay in relationships or marriage, even if there are children involved. Divorce is no longer looked downed upon. Heck, my sister has been married twice in the past 5 years and she finalizing her second divorce right now, while my brother who is older and has been with his gf for 14 years is just getting married. And both of my siblings have 2 kids each, and my brother was actually seeing another girl on the side for a couple of years during this time. Of course, his gf didn't know, or else she would've killed him.

 

[LOBO3315a]

But that's the core of it all. If you are a mature person who realizes that the world doesn't revolve around your wants and needs, that other people may have wants and needs that don't include you, there's no basis for being jealous.

Immature people tend to be jealous and posessive. I've yet to meet a single person that I would consider mature, that shows those traits. Doesn't mean there aren't any, I just haven't met them, yet.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Monogamy isn't the problem.

Never said it was.

And to assume or insinuate that the bad couple's problem was monogamy is ludicrous. Finances is the number one killer of a marriage. Next comes adultery. Then drugs, alcohol and abuse.

Go back and read what I wrote. I didn't blame monogamy now did I? I said the most f*** up couple I knew was monogamous, and the only open marriage I was aware of was perfectly happy, I didn't make the implication that either couples choice on monogamy is what kept their marriage together.

Kay!

As well as an emotional, political and economic "thing". But those don't belittle the importance of marriage to most of society.

American and western views on marriage hardly represent most of society, in fact they represent a small fraction of it, and even among that small fraction the views on marriage and what it represents is quite diverse as you'd expect it to be in such a multi-cultural society. Furthermore, as I've said, and it's really tiring repeating myself the concept of marrying for love is relatively new. It's actually nowhere to be found in the Bible. Moreover, many married men in the Bible had concubines, which makes it's "Thou Shalt Not Committ Adultery" commandment a tad fuzzy.

No it doesn't. What's funny is, to prove his point that there is no indication that marriage vows include NOT having sex with others, he mentioned this: "forsaking all others".

Yes, because all marriages are Protestant and Catholic marriages, and all marriages read from the same holy book, and all wedding vows ever uttered include the phrase "forsaking all others".

Nevermind that, but if marriage does, in fact, allow for adultery (having sex with some one outside of marriage), then why in the world would adultery be listed in admissible grounds for divorce?

So wait, everyone who sleeps with someone else is bound by law to get divorced In what strange book in what bizzare library did you read that. You know what else is grounds for divorce; irreconcilable differences (thank you Pre-Law!). You know what that means. "Hey, we don't get along, can we terminate this dumb decision". That doesn't infer though that people who argue or fight or have 'irreconcilable differences" must get divorce because of course we all know marriage is a trouble free world just like it's depicted on the television.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I'm not throwing out anything, I'm just pointing out the flaws.

But these "flaws" are simply reasons you don't believe in open relationships, they have little or nothing to do with couples that make it work. All marriage has flaws, but if the people can work through the flaws and fight to keep themselves together despite what disagreements they have it works. If they don't, it doesn't.

 

[Anita18]

In theory, being with one person is a great idea, in practice monogamous marriages don't have an overwhelming degree of success. Not advocating one over the other, personally I've always choosen monogamy, but I can't deny that most marriages end in divorce, and most relationships are not lifelong ones.

Some divorces aren't caused by adultery. Sometimes the couple just grows apart. My aunt got a divorce because she and her husband could not come to an agreement over her career/family balance. He still cares about her a lot, but she's a workaholic and the fact that he wanted her to focus more on their kids made her think he was holding her back and she couldn't get over it.

Now they're in a bitter custody battle which is kind of She never wanted kids in the first place - he promised her that if they had kids he'd take care of them, which he totally did when they were very young. When they got older though, he believed that they should have more of a relationship with their mom and that didn't quite happen as planned...

It's kind of sad. The kids are doing great, but the older one is in college and can't stand being around her mom. I can't imagine holding a grudge against one of my parents like that...

Anyways, yes. Honesty and communication is key.

 

[SuperFerret]

When did monogamy become the topic?

 

[LOBO3315a]

A few pages back. It kind of fits with the original topic. Popular concepts of relationships.

 

[Danalys]

I agree, in an ideal world, one in which is what we usually only see in movies, after two people get together because of love, they'd live happily ever after. But that's just not the case in the real world.

movies are about romantic heroes and heroines, i think they exist but are just rare.

 

[SuperFerret]

I see.

Are you aware that Homo sapiens is a monogamous species?

 

[Danalys]

we should be the most monogamous considering the time it takes us to reach adulthood.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I see.

Are you aware that Homo sapiens is a monogamous species?

Actually that's not true. Only three percent of mammals are monogamous species and humans are not one of them.

 

[LOBO3315a]

I see.

Are you aware that Homo sapiens is a monogamous species?

Really? We have a natural instinct to stay with one person, forever or is it learned? Otherwise why would divorce even be an option? We'd be compelled to stay together, parting only when 1 mate dies.

My observations lead me to believe that this 'monogamy' of which people speak is the exception, not the rule. Otherwise divorce would be the exception.

 

[SuperFerret]

The length of time it takes to become an adult is the result of our larger brains and a quasi-marsupial response to partuition and development of the young. It had the effect of making it necessary for humans to become social creatures (nature's "it takes a village" so to speak).

As for monogamy, I don't know of the true effect our big brained, helpless babies had on that, but I do know that it's a normal response for a human to feel it towards a person they've grown closely attached to.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Really? We have a natural instinct to stay with one person, forever or is it learned? Otherwise why would divorce even be an option? We'd be compelled to stay together, parting only when 1 mate dies.

My observations lead me to believe that this 'monogamy' of which people speak is the exception, not the rule. Otherwise divorce would be the exception.

It's statistically dubious at best that humans are a inherently 'monogamous' species. I know of a few species that violently defend monogamy and we are certainly no where near them (quite a few birds will literally kill anyone who cheats, even slightly). In fact I read an essay once that concluded that males are rewarded for infidelity and spreading their seed around in most human cultures.

 

[SuperFerret]

Actually that's not true. Only three percent of mammals are monogamous species and humans are not one of them.

I need your source to prove it wrong.

Really? We have a natural instinct to stay with one person, forever or is it learned? Otherwise why would divorce even be an option? We'd be compelled to stay together, parting only when 1 mate dies.

My observations lead me to believe that this 'monogamy' of which people speak is the exception, not the rule. Otherwise divorce would be the exception.

Who says divorce isn't possible if monogamy is the norm? Heterosexuality is the biological norm for almost all species, yet homosexual behaviour abounds in most (if not all) mammalian species (at least). Divorce is possible because (1) outliers to the norm, and (2) that many (if not most) divorces result from people rushing into marriage with someone they're not compatible with, therefore they don't feel monogamous towards that person.

Also, as I should have explained earlier with the big-brain babies thing, humans need to learn many things that are "instinct" (like the ability to swim and walk and communicate), so the distinction between "learned" and "instinct" is moot.

 

[SuperFerret]

It's statistically dubious at best that humans are a inherently 'monogamous' species. I know of a few species that violently defend monogamy and we are certainly no where near them (quite a few birds will literally kill anyone who cheats, even slightly). In fact I read an essay once that concluded that males are rewarded for infidelity and spreading their seed around in most human cultures.

And in a stunning turn of events, we're once again hung up on the distinction between relationships and sex. And people say things don't go in circles.