Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Discussion in 'Batman World' started by theman, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. theman

    theman Well-Known Member

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    also before i say anything more, i want to say that faithfulness to the "source material", especially something as juvenile as a comic book, does not overly concern me as a person. comic books are not classic literature, so whether or not they interprete the ever-changing comic strips is not a very big deal to me. what matters is the film itself and how it effects me, if it rubs me the right way while keeping the general spirit of the character.

    with that said, i know enough about the batman comics to know that the arguments between the "burtonites" and "nolanites" is rediculous. both directors have put there stamp on the character and both are considered the best directors to interpret batman, although i really did enjoy joel schumachers versions as well. however i see that in the fan community there are alot of stupid inane bashing of the older movies because the nolan fans seem threatened that alot of people still prefer burtons version. and in defense they site that burtons was unfaithful to the comics. what. a load. of BULL. if anything nolan got more wrong, and yes, here i will list the reasons.

    batmans suit. when has it EVER looked like puzzle piece armor with a helmet head and skeleton neck?

    the tumbler thing. when has the batmobile EVER looked like a tank? (please dont site the one time only elseworlds DKR)

    who the hell is rachel dawes? she was never in the comics.

    batman faking his death and retiring as batman? ...... this would never happen in the comics.

    bruce wayne stops crimfighting for 7 years after harvey died??? another WTF decision by nolan. batman would never do this in the comics.

    scarecrow wears nothing but a simple burlap bag over his head, looking like a common hood and not the costumed horrific master of terror like he in the comics and the akrham assylum game.

    catwoman looking more like julie newmar from the 60's show and not like the masked avenger of the comics. this is clearly a case where burton trumps nolan. also, no whip??? only a gun??? cmon now, this is a hallmark of the character.

    when has joker EVER been a greasy long hair painted up psycho? he was supposed to be dropped in the vat of acid that made his skin white and everything. thats the official comics canon, not this nolanized made-up "realistic" joker whos no different then your average serial killer with a brain.

    of course alot of people may point out "when did penguin ever look like a pale ugly deformed mutant with green bile and living in the sewers?" yes thats true, which basically proves my point that nolan and burton took about the same liberties. burtons joker wasnt changed very much frrom the comics. nolans Ra's wasnt changed very much from the comics. but burtons penguin and nolans joker were both RADICAL departures from there comic counterparts.


    then there are the aesthetic choices, like making gotham city into a normal everyday place and not the dark creepy foreboding city of the comics or past films.

    much of nolans creative choices just seem so uninspired to me. and the acting is so underplayed it makes me yearn for those dramatic slightly over the top villian performances of yesteryear.

    these are just some of the complaints i have against nolan. i just wanted to point out that nolan is really no better then any of the other directors as far as faithfulness goes. i would even say nolan took far more libertites then burton or schumacher did.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
  2. ThePhantasm

    ThePhantasm 2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper

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    Well... of course? There are many interpretations of Batman. That's because the hero and his world lends itself to multiple interpretations. There's no one singular solidarily defined mythos to argue about faithfulness towards.

    P. S. Some of your "Batman would never do this in the comics" critiques are laughably silly.
     
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  3. theman

    theman Well-Known Member

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    well answer my question then, when has batman ever simply retired? or stopped crimefighting cuz his GF died? please. there are no excuses for this. why people give nolan a free pass is beyond me. at least admit when a director goofs up.
     
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  4. ThePhantasm

    ThePhantasm 2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper

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    You seem to think that those things are integral to the character, when they aren't. I don't have to answer your question because the question is silly, irrelevant, and pointless, and doesn't get at the issue of what it means to create a Batman story that faithfully depicts the character.
     
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  5. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Around the same time it looked like black rubber.....oh wait it never did.

    Ok, I'll show you one from Batman: The Cult instead:

    [​IMG]

    Who the hell is Max Schreck?

    Who the hell is Carl Grissom?

    The Joker killing Batman's parents. That would never happen in the comics.

    Batman ripping his mask off in front of a villain just to get Catwoman to come and move in with him. That would never happen.

    The Penguin wearing a big white dirty baby gro.

    [​IMG]

    Btw you know they've adopted that Scarecrow look into the comics?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Catwoman started out in her early appearances with no whip at all. You know like how Batman started as a cold blooded killer like Burton's Batman was.

    Should we start on Penguin having a mob of murderous circus guys working for him in Returns? That is a hallmark Joker's style trait, not Penguin's. He doesn't affiliate with gangs of clowns.

    http://www.jokerfans.blogspot.ie/

    When has Joker ever been an art obsessed, Vicki Vale stalking psychopath who was screwed over by a crime boss because he was diddling his girlfriend?

    You may as well ask when has The Joker or The Penguin ever been killed off permanently like in Burton's movies, instead of spending years fighting Batman like in the comics? It's a movie universe not the comics. It doesn't go on forever.

    Gotham has been portrayed as a normal looking city for decades in the comics. There was even times when it looked like New York:

    [​IMG]

    That's not why he stopped. He stopped because crime was eradicated in Gotham thanks to Dent's legacy.

    You haven't even gotten half of these so called goofs right! And 75% of them are laughable visual nit picks. Should we start slamming Burton's Harvey Dent because he was a black guy?
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
  6. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Serenity now!

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    ^The Joker wins. End thread.
     
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  7. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    If you haven't done your homework, you probably shouldn't burst into a forum making controversial, reflexive statements just because you're fed up with the more irrational fanboys.

    Most of us agree that 'Nolanites' and 'Burtonites' are completely out of touch.
     
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  8. ManInTheNarrows

    ManInTheNarrows Well-Known Member

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    Nicely done my friend.
     
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  9. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    [​IMG]

    Regarding the reason Bruce retired after TDK: Everyone is always arguing it's one reason or the other, but it seems more likely to me that it's a bit of everything.
     
    #9
  10. ManInTheNarrows

    ManInTheNarrows Well-Known Member

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    Completely agree that it was a bit of everything just simply taking a tole physically and mentally.
     
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  11. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    Joker's post cut truth into some of your claims, but I'm gonna go into the others, as well as expand a bit on a couple of his.

    It's been armored, segmented, and helmeted many times. How is Burton's any less unique?

    Believe it or not, in 1989, there were people upset that Batman was all-black and wearing rubber, because it was so 'outlandish' and different.

    She's an amalgamation of various other characters from the books. For simplicity's sake, as well as screen time. Julie Madison is one obvious example.

    See: The 'Secret Origins' Batman stories.

    Should be noted that Nolan also had a pair of cops in The Dark Knight based on Bullock and Montoya, but with new names.

    The Dark Knight Returns, although it was in the opposite order.

    The Dark Knight Returns and Batman Beyond. But for way longer than 7 years.

    The original Catwoman had a purple dress, bare legs, and a green cape. She also had her hair flowing out, Burton's didn't.

    I don't see the need to nitpick creative redesigns (all of which have been good if you ask me), but you're simply incorrect.

    It's strange to me that you think the reason his face is white is all that separates him from being an 'average' serial killer. Better yet, I question your understanding of the 'average' serial killer. The Joker in The Dark Knight was far more than that.

    The Joker has never had a solid origin story. It's all what-ifs. The Joker himself doesn't even remember. The acid thing was one of the what-ifs.

    Ra's was combined with a character called Henri Ducard. He wasn't the sole mentor of Bruce Wayne (or even around during Wayne's globe-trotting) in the books, and he isn't an eco-terrorist in Begins as he often is in the books.

    They're extensions, not departures. They're based HEAVILY on comic material (as Joker - the user here - illustrates thoroughly with his awesome blog). There was a lot of love, care, and research put into this.

    As Joker pointed out, it's quite commonly been portrayed as a 'normal' city in the books, but Begins and TDK had the Narrows, which evoked a nice smokey, noir vibe that was far from normal.

    I would prefer a more unique city too, but let's not skew reality.

    Are you trolling? You just chewed him out for being TOO creative and taking 'more liberties than Burton and Schumacher' and now you're calling him uninspired?? Seriously?

    He reinvented and improved major things, breathed new creative life and depth into them. The way Batman's suit functions, down to the last microscopic detail, for starters.

    Just going to pretend you never said the 'underplayed' or 'the Schumacher days were better than this' rubbish.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
  12. OutRiddled

    OutRiddled Well-Known Member

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    I think Nolan's weakness is that he is TOO faithful to the comics in some aspects, not the other way around.

    I want to see the essence of the characters, but I'm not concerned with minor details such as what colour Batman's suit is. As long as they don't stray too far from the original concept.

    But I wouldn't say either Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher or Christopher Nolan are any more comic accurate than the other.
     
    #12
  13. cryptic name

    cryptic name No Limits

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    This is where I stop reading.
     
    #13
  14. Visceral

    Visceral A Shadow

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    Burton wasn't anymore faithful than schumacher.
     
    #14
  15. jonathancrane

    jonathancrane I love Marvel, DC & EC!

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    #15
  16. OutRiddled

    OutRiddled Well-Known Member

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    Nolan wasn't anymore faithful than Schumacher.
     
    #16
  17. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Lol.
     
    #17
  18. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    Batman, faking his death. Courtesy of another user:

    [​IMG]
     
    #18
  19. Spider-Aziz

    Spider-Aziz Raul Boston's Dish Gaunt

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    Burton's Batman killed more bad guys than the comics Batman did
    Nolan's reject killing
    More faithful in that aspect
    The film is important, it and the way it affects the viewer is very important
    To say comics are juvenile you say movies are juvenile as well, they are both ways to present stories to their audience, one with moving pictures and sound, another uses still art and text
     
    #19
  20. marvelrobbins

    marvelrobbins Well-Known Member

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    I remain fan of both Burton and Nolan films.Obviously some decisons Nolan made with
    DKR I don't agree with.The whole John Blake Character.Turning Talia Into a straight up
    Villian with no conflicts.Taking whip away from Catwomen.Toning down villainary from
    Catwoman.Taking away a lot of dominatrix subtext to Catwoman and her relationship with
    Batman.Bruce faking his death and running away from Gotham with Selina.Nolan took a lot
    from comics.Burton also took elements from comics for his films.
     
    #20
  21. theman

    theman Well-Known Member

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    i see there seems to be 2 camps here. the blatant nolan-is-god people (they still exist?), and the more sane people who recognize nolan took just as many liberties as the other directors.

    for my money, burton got the look of batman perfect and the villians actually looked more like there comic counterparts. but nolan changed them way too much. twoface is more like half a face, joker's an ICP clown, scarecrow just a guy in a buisness suit *most of the time*, bane lookin like a mortal combat ripoff, catwoman more like the 60's show without the whip. i just dont like nolans version of these classic villians. they seem rather dumbed down in order to ground his movies. i like the more comic book approach. for instance, it would have been cooler in TDKR if when they showed crane at the court, he was wearing his scarecrow mask. but alot of the scenes are just people talking alot. just seems lazy to me, especially what is supposed to be a comic book movie (despite what the nerds try to make it into something "more").


    also, they have incorporated burtons style of penguin into many comics and animated shows like BTAS and the "the batman", and the long halloween comic. but they ussually tend to do this for whatever is popular at the time in the movies.



    the point of my thread was simply to state that christopher nolan took just as many liberties with the comic books as tim burton and joel schumacher did. so why the hell people gets so worked up over nolans films as being these great adapatations is beyond me. as decent crime movies? yeah, perhaps. as great comic book adaptations? no. at least not to me. personally i dont think any director ever could get it 100% right as the comics are not the Bible and they are constantly changing characters, origins etc. but like i said, for my money, tim burton got it the closest.
     
    #21
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  22. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    With your first paragraph you lost any weight to your argument. Pretending these films are any different to the childish wish fulfilment of being able to put on a mask and being strong enough to beat up your bullies is a hypocritical opinion of the highest character. However, you took the time to bring up your opinion, so I'll reply fully.

    Each director has shown valid interpretations and aspects of the character. Schumacher displayed the philanthropic side more than Burton or Nolan.

    2011-
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Max Schreck
    Carl Grissom
    Jack Napier
    Knox
    Eckhardt

    Who are those people?

    The Batman of Earth-Two, whilst still in publication retired to become the Commissioner of police. In Kingdom Come Bruce retired from the Batman role. Frank Miller's Batman retires after Jason's death. Not to mention Batman Beyond (though that began as an animated series).

    I didn't like the retirement plot point of TDKR, either. I'd have had being Batman as like a drug for Bruce, and he only stopped when his body stopped.

    In the Arkham series, Scarecrow wears an "Arkhamised" version of the Nolan Scarecrow duds, namely he wears the normal Arkham inmate clothing with the Scarecrow mask. Also, the look has been adopted for a while now.

    Catwoman has existed for longer without the full black bodysuit than with it. He just chose a different mask. I've never seen Robin wear a big red bird on his chest.

    In 2006's The Clown At Midnight (A reference book used by Chris and Heath) Grant Morrison describes Joker as having long greasy hair. And The Dark Knight Returns and Grant Morrison has shown that Joker wears make up. Also, Joker has no origin, the official stance is he was almost definitely one of many Red Hoods.

    I'd disagree. Tim Burton has to turn all his villains into monsters. Tim Burton's Batman Returns has Batman essentially facing up against Killer Croc, he is very much, Penguin in name only. Penguin is a fully fledged mobster, not monster.

    Not enough to ruin the characters, no.

    No, Joker suffered from a minor aesthetic deviation, that was used as a metaphor of his psyche. Penguin suffered from huge narrative and aesthetic departures.

    This I agree with. However, I don't think any director as of yet has done Gotham justice, the closest being Batman Begins.

    I wouldn't say they were underplayed. Nolan's villains were supposed to feel like real tangible people with believable emotions and reactions to events. He's done the best adaptations of characters, but limited himself by the choice of setting.

    You'd be wrong in saying that though.
     
    #22
  23. ThePhantasm

    ThePhantasm 2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper

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    But the "Nolan took liberties too" is only a rebuttal to the more rabid Nolanites if you start from the premise that the comics can never be improved upon, which is a false premise.
     
    #23
  24. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    I support this post. :up:
     
    #24
  25. Snow Queen

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    Replace GF with Jason Todd and you have the set up for The Dark Knight Returns. Heck, Rachel and Jason even died in a similar fashion (blown up by The Joker).
     
    #25

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