Is Nolan Scared?

[DACrowe]

If Catwoman is the main attraction of the next Batman movie I am not seeing it. Hopefully Nolan has the good sense to spot an overrated character when he sees it.

And I'm sure if that's the case, you won't be missed.

To the OP, are you trying to start a war between the Nolanites and Burtonites with all your threads? It doesn't bug me as I'm a fine of both and love the comics and TAS as well, so talking about different interpretations is fine by me.

First of all, I doubt Nolan is "running scared" of tackling material done by Burton. Even if you don't feel Jack's Joker was anything special, he is/was (depending who you ask now) consider(ed) a great movie villain. He was on the AFI's Top 50 Screen Villains and made an instantly iconic turn as the Joker, so much so his performance has been talked about for 20 years.

And Nolan tackled that character with Ledger and blew past him like they were Seabiscuit. In fact Nolan's whole take on Batman, Gotham, Gordon, Dent/Two-Face and The Joker are pretty fearless and he just simply pushed previous interpretations of all of them in the shadows for the near foreseeable future.

So I doubt he is running scared.

As for Catwoman and Penguin, I don't think he said he would never use them. I know Oldman said he doesn't care for Catwoman (but did not get angry over the thought of her like he did at Robin and Batgirl) and Jonah Nolan merely scoffed off the question about using them as to saying everyone seems to think there is a small set of villains to pull from, even though they used Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow in BB who were never seen before. But I think he was just playing coy.

I'm fairly confident we're going to see Catwoman in the next movie and know we are seeing Riddler. I don't know who else (if anyone more) is going to show up. Albeit Riddler seems a little "small" to one-up the threat created by Joker in TDK.

I really like Burton's Catwoman, but I think the best way is to go a different route. Use the version from the comics, specifically Year One/The Long Halloween/Dark Victory. A Catwoman who is more ambiguous as to whether she is good or evil and is clearly sane and doing this for personal beneficial reasons and not because she flipped her lid and is completely nuts like Burton's.

I love Burton's and to oversimplify her story is a great disservice to what they did. She is as crazy as Burton's Batman. They really are made for each other. Her story is expressionistic of the soul who was stepped on so much she lashes out and completely destroys who she was. She "dies" and is reborn (it is all visually metaphorical in the best surrealist/expressionist's way). She destroys her old life of a shut-in who lived the good girl's life waiting for a knight in shining armor.

She is completely insane after her accident and creates a persona to ease her psychosis. She is indenpendent and free finally within this persona but she is still abused and stepped on by Batman and Penguin and slowly it slips away from her and she falls back into insanity as her costume falls to pieces. her mind is that suit and that persona and at the end it is completely gone and she finally has what her old self wanted in Bruce's offer but she is too far down this "monster she created" for liberation to take it. Truly tragic.



But the best way to differentiate from that is to make her a sane thief with aspirations for good and more seductive of Batman and less bat-crazy (pardon the pun).

As for Penguin. I simply do not want to see him done again. As the OP said, DeVito and Burton gave us the definitive take. The freakish monster with wells of pathos who is still a disgusting monster was a great achievement. The pudgey mob boss from the comics with a fetish for birds is so boring and stale compared to this brilliant characterization. They redefined a boring character into something truly special and unique in BR.

I do not want to see him redone as a crime boos in Nolan's world. Use Backmask and Scarface then. Don't use Penguin as the only great Penguin is Burton's, so no need to redo that. And as the comics one sucks, just avoid the character all together, then.

 

[raynorWilm]

Nolan, has no limits/fear...

 

[terminalpicture]

those characters would just seem silly in Nolan's Batworld.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

No penguin. Crap villain and Burton just made him worse. Catwoman has potential. Burton pissed on that too.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

No penguin. Crap villain and Burton just made him worse. Catwoman has potential. Burton pissed on that too.

Disagree fully with your Penguin opinion, but agree somewhat with your thoughts on Catwoman.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I'm fairly confident we're going to see Catwoman in the next movie and know we are seeing Riddler. I don't know who else (if anyone more) is going to show up. Albeit Riddler seems a little "small" to one-up the threat created by Joker in TDK.

I'm interested in knowing how you know this.

 

[onDgrind]

those characters would just seem silly in Nolan's Batworld.

Nolans world , you guys make Nolan sound like a God. I bet if Burton had used Scarecrow in his movies, Nolan fans would have said Scarecrow would just seem silly in Nolans world

 

[BatmanReborn]

What I find annoying is that most of you dont realize just how much of ledgers performance is Nolan. Directing isnt just camera setups, its vision, and its, get this, directing the actions of actors. Not to mention, if the character was not written a certain way in the script, Heath would not have what he did to go off of. Was Ledger brilliant, absolutely, but you have to understand that what made him brilliant, the liberties he took were small, the way he consistantly played with his toungue in his mouth. The distinct voice he came up with, his movement. Nolan gave him a character and he took it to the next step.
My bottom line is just this, its all down to the script, if The Joker was written differntly, Ledger would have played him differntly, The Jokers writing in The Dark Knight was absolutely spot on brilliant.
Also, Burton's Penguin and catwoman was a departure, and a pretty big one from the source material, and though I didnt care for penguin much, I loved catwoman. Was it the selina kyle I know and love from the comics, no, but it wasnt supposed to be either. This was Burtons take on the characters, and his catwoman was a truly teriffic character. Someone one page back described her character in returns perfectly, and it truly deserves more respect than it gets. I personally absolutely LOVE batman returns, however I dont watch it with the idea of watching a Batman movie. I know thats a bit contradictive, but its a burton movie with characters that somewhat resemble people in the world of batman. If you can peel yourself out of the comics, and just watch it as a movie, nothing more than a work of ART, then returns is a great film, my second favorite batman none the less.

Now could Nolan tackle penguin and catwoman, sure he could, do i think he should, anhh. I do want catwoman, thats without a doubt, its one of very few times that the wb imposed romance has a point. Catwoman could perfectly fit in, and be done true to her comics counterpart without a problem, but is catwoman going to top ledgers joker? alone NO. But she could be a big piece of the puzzle. Lets face it folks, Love is one of the biggest parts of life. We will always relate to love, If batmanis supposed to be human, than love is a part of him as well. This is a love story that is on his level. It can be a huge part in making the next bat film top the second. I think its time to eliminate the mob, the freaks have officially taken over by the end of Dark Knight. Having said that, id throw penguin in a small role as the new face of the mob, the freak who had the insight and intelligence to know that there is a void worth filling ("id like to fill her void" sorry)
Not a big role, but a character worth seeing in a realistic setting.
Riddler is the most talked about villain, and if I had to bet on it, I would say he is who were getting as the next primary. I think that its a mistake to put him in number 3.
Why? well, because he wont top ledgers joker. now, technically, nobody should, joker, regardless of who plays him shouldnt be able to be upstagged, but catwoman and riddler wont be enough, you need someone truly insane, a real threat to Gotham in a differnt way than Joker was. I see Nolans Riddler as a Zodiak Killer type villain, much more serious, and more egotistic like a ted bundy. thats a great villain, and a great challenge to Batman, but audiences wont be enthralled by riddler alone, and what reason does catwoman have for opposing or teaming with him, there is no story dynamics to play with there. I say save riddler for 4, lets see another villain that has never graced the screen yet. Lets see Nolan take on
The Madd Hatter

Hear me out on this, Hatter can be done very well in Nolans real Gotham. Especially if you make Selina Kyle resemble the girls he abducts as his Alice. I would definately make Hatter a child molester. Catwoman who is stealing from Penguin at the start of the story, learns of Hatter, and though we dont really need her origin, we could find out that she had a troubled past where she was abused by men, hence acting out in such seductive ways with Batman. Batman however is the one man who doesnt treat her like what she is used to, he treats her like an equal, and there altercations always are respected, and more of a game to one up one another. Its cat & mouse for them, and she loves it. People would be able to feel there relationship, while they will absolutely despise mad hatter. oh, NO MIND CONTROL HATS! but that doesnt mean he doesnt mentally control anyone, he should be a mental genius, well verse at psychology, more like a jim jones, ill make you want to drink my coolade type (or tea). that edgyness might be just what Nolan needs to make Batman 3 the next step from The Dark Knight. It doesnt have to top TDK, it needs to be a differnt movie with a story just as brilliant as TDK.

So my rundown is
penguin in a small role as the new face of the mob
catwoman steals from the mob and runs into batman
a new villain comes to gotham known as The Madd Hatter, and he is abducting little girls who resemble Alice from Alice in Wonderland without any forced entry, he is getting them to follow him.
you could do some really sick stuff with that, I wish nolan could do an r ratred batman

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

No penguin. Crap villain and Burton just made him worse. Catwoman has potential. Burton pissed on that too.

Im glad so many people can just call The Penguin crap, and not give any fact to back up their statement, just makes me laugh at their posts!

 

[DACrowe]

I'm interested in knowing how you know this.

Just a feeling?

Mostly because in several interviews Oldman said he'd like to see Riddler and in the last one he said "Who WE WANT to do is Riddler."

With that said I think Catwoman is a great character and though I loved Burton's I would enjoy seeing a more comic-based version that could differentiate itself from his. Penguin...not so much. The only good version is Burton's and we aren't seeing that one ever again.

 

[DACrowe]

P.S. May I ask why so many think Catwoman is a "silly stupid characcter" who wouldn't fit in Nolan's Bat-verse? What a woman who is an agile cat thief who...dresses up like a cat in her cat burglaries for a little theatrical flare?

What is so unbelievable about that? Especially after Gotham's "escalation" and the freaks taking over. I fully expect themed mobsters in the next one (I bet we see Black Mask, Scarface and probably more) as the supporting roles to show Gotham has become the haven for the freaks. to fit into its criminal underworld the female cat burglar fashions her black outfit to have ears and maybe a tail. Is that so outlandish? Especially in a world where a guy dresses up like a bat to fight crime (a much larger leep into the unbelievable) and is really a billionaire on top of that? Especially with villains who run around in bulrac sack masks who hadds a hangman's noose around his neck for dramatic effect, a guy who dresses up like a clown just to scare people ****less as he randomly murders them and oh yeah, a district attorney who gets half of his face burned perfectly symetrically off and becomes obsessed with chance and the fairness of fate so he flips his two-headed coin from 1922 to decide how to murder people? Not to mention he was burned at 2 50/50 2nd street. I mean what are the odds?

I'm not saying you go for Burton's cat-crazy animalistic woman who has lost her marbles after falling out a window and being licked by cats. Just use the one in The Long Halloween/Dark Victory.

 

[UltimateJustin]

P.S. May I ask why so many think Catwoman is a "silly stupid characcter" who wouldn't fit in Nolan's Bat-verse? What a woman who is an agile cat thief who...dresses up like a cat in her cat burglaries for a little theatrical flare?

What is so unbelievable about that? Especially after Gotham's "escalation" and the freaks taking over. I fully expect themed mobsters in the next one (I bet we see Black Mask, Scarface and probably more) as the supporting roles to show Gotham has become the haven for the freaks. to fit into its criminal underworld the female cat burglar fashions her black outfit to have ears and maybe a tail. Is that so outlandish? Especially in a world where a guy dresses up like a bat to fight crime (a much larger leep into the unbelievable) and is really a billionaire on top of that? Especially with villains who run around in bulrac sack masks who hadds a hangman's noose around his neck for dramatic effect, a guy who dresses up like a clown just to scare people ****less as he randomly murders them and oh yeah, a district attorney who gets half of his face burned perfectly symetrically off and becomes obsessed with chance and the fairness of fate so he flips his two-headed coin from 1922 to decide how to murder people? Not to mention he was burned at 2 50/50 2nd street. I mean what are the odds?

I'm not saying you go for Burton's cat-crazy animalistic woman who has lost her marbles after falling out a window and being licked by cats. Just use the one in The Long Halloween/Dark Victory.

Well, only four years ago audiences accepted a new Catwoman into theaters. I always thought they would just use Halle Berry if she was willing.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Iron Man = (B-), Indiana Jones = (B-), Kung-Fu Panda = 4(B), Wall-E = (A-), The Dark Knight = (A), X-Files = (D), Step-Brothers = (B)

B- for Iron Man from you?! Why?

 

[onDgrind]

Its funny how guys accept a guy dressed as a bat gliding around in the sky, but think a woman dressed in skin tight leather is silly

 

[onDgrind]

All I know is....if Catwoman is in it we better finally see Catwoman boobies.

Batman could rip her top off in a fight scene and go " just the boobies i 've been looking for" too bad Schumacher aint directing any more

 

[Asteroid-Man]

Im glad so many people can just call The Penguin crap, and not give any fact to back up their statement, just makes me laugh at their posts!

Are you serious? His name's the PENGUIN. He has lots of BIRDS. He WADDLES. He's annoying as hell. What kind of fact do you ****ing want!? Go pick up a goddamn comic book and educate yourself. GOD!

 

[Dr. Acula]

Batman could rip her top off in a fight scene and go " just the boobies i 've been looking for" too bad Schumacher aint directing any more

now that would be an instant classic

 

[onDgrind]

Are you serious? His name's the PENGUIN. He has lots of BIRDS. He WADDLES. He's annoying as hell. What kind of fact do you ****ing want!? Go pick up a goddamn comic book and educate yourself. GOD!

Could say that about names like Batman, Catwoman, Joker,spiderman etc its not about the name, have a convincing arguement atleast

 

[onDgrind]

Are you serious? His name's the PENGUIN. He has lots of BIRDS. He WADDLES. He's annoying as hell. What kind of fact do you ****ing want!? Go pick up a goddamn comic book and educate yourself. GOD!

Could say that about names like Batman, Catwoman, Joker,spiderman etc its not about the name, have a convincing arguement atleast

 

[Batmania]

Its funny how guys accept a guy dressed as a bat gliding around in the sky, but think a woman dressed in skin tight leather is silly

Exactly. How is one "realistic" and the other not? ...Sexism.

 

[DACrowe]

DeVito's Penguin is not the one in the comics. He is a vast improvement.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

DeVito's Penguin is not the one in the comics. He is a vast improvement.

Yeah, baby.

 

[onDgrind]

DeVito's Penguin is not the one in the comics. He is a vast improvement.

Isnt that the case with comic book movies?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Isnt that the case with comic book movies?

Some of them. I doubt even Tim Story himself would say his version of the Galactus/Silver Surfer story is an improvement on the comicbook version.

 

[DACrowe]

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head that did it better than in he comics:

-Burton's Penguin.

-Bruce and Selina's relationship (not Batman/Catwoman) in Batman Returns.

-Burton's Batmobile.

-The X-Mansion being an actual school that teaches kids and not just a training faciity for sueprheroes.

-The look of Cerebro.

-Aunt May. Period.

-Peter and Harry's friendship (not necessarily the plot points that it encompasses, but how these characters interact and their history).

-How Peter discovers his powers for the first time and Uncle Ben's death being a carjacking (and Peter not stopping the criminal out of spite).

-How Bruce got the idea for bats in Batman Begins.

-Aaron Eckhart's Harvey Dent/Two-Face.

-Obediah Stane/Iron Monger.

-Tony Stark's motormouth smartass taking.

All my opinion and I'm sure some will disagree. But those are the rare times I thought the movies actually did it better.