Official Avengers: Endgame General Discussion Thread!

Discussion in 'Avengers: Endgame' started by flickchick85, May 8, 2019.

  1. Sony23 Registered

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    Yeah I too liked all that character development in Endgame... A pity most of it happened OFF-SCREEN

    I liked how Captain Marvel went from a piece of cardboard with long hair to a Deus Ex Machina with short hair!

    I like how Thanos went from being an intimidating villain to a weak and lazy plot device that is killed off in the first 10mins while cooking a stew.

    I like how Thor went from a character to a fat drunk SNL sketch.

    Banner was great. He didn't even have to try all that hard. All he had to do is develop into a CGI green version of himself!
     
  2. Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014/2019 Champion

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    There was PLENTY of on-screen character development in Endgame. Almost the entire first half of the movie was a character study.

    Your summaries are very reductive, and I don't think accurate. At all.
     
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  3. Sony23 Registered

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    Sure. Black Widow. CAP... It just didn't involve any of the characters I described.

    OK. Which one? Was Captain Marvel given any character development? How does she develop as a character from the beginning of the film to the one at the end? Please point to any part of her 15 minutes of screentime where she isn't there for the sole purpose of solving a problem? Do we learn anything more about her as a person? Why does she cry when seeing the image of Fury? Was she just as concerned for the family she hasn't seen in 30 years? How does Steve suddenly talk like he knows her, yet her reaction to Natasha describing past events implies she is just learning of this now?. No we don't learn anything about her. Because she doesn't speak to anyone. She remains stone faced with no personality. She's barely in the movie to be called a character let alone one with character development. No. She is just as I accurately described. A Deus Ex Machina with a bad hair cut. That is all she is. Horribly written and terribly executed.

    Killing Thanos - a character you built up for 10 years and developed in your previous movie and only to have him killed off at the beginning of your next, was probably one of the dumbest decisions I've ever seen in film history. It would be like if you killed Darth Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ. You want to talk about character development. What a waste of a villain and any potential tension you could've had with him still present and a threat. How about you don't kill off your main villain that has a history with these characters and then replace him with what is essentially a clone or twin brother trope.

    Thor: Throughout his solo films he went through various trials and tribulations. From his father and mother dying to seeing his whole world destroyed. We saw all of that pain in Infinity War come to ahead in the scene with Rocket. A scene that has more depth than anything a fat suit can ever convey. The Russos completely ignored all of that character development for the sake of a joke, making Thor one of the most mishandled portrayals of a character since Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi.

    Hulk: Replace all of Professor Hulk's scenes with just Bruce Banner. Would it really be any different? Replacing your human character with a green CGI version of the same character isn't character development. It's purely a cosmetic change. If they continued ON-SCREEN, the character arc setup in Infinity War with Banner struggling with his inner conflict with The Hulk then that would be considered character development. Instead, once again this character arc is resolved through exposition off-screen. Why do you think so many Hulk fans are angry with his portrayal in Endgame? The Hulk never reemerges ever again. All we get is a green Banner that dabs. Stupid



    Skipping 5 years and then telling the audience the progression characters may have made is a cardinal sin of storytelling. We should've seen Tony's resentment towards Steve resolved throughout the movie. Did Tony and Steve not speak in 5 years? Why? Endgame would rather spend more time on Fortnite and Taco jokes.
     
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  4. Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014/2019 Champion

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    Hulk is the only one where I agree. Well, and Thanos but that was by design. The gauntlet needed stakes for the user, so Thanos couldn't be a god for the whole movie. So his role makes sense.

    Thor is very developed. He's battling PTSD and facing the worst failure of his life, which he conquered. That's called an arc.

    As for Captain Marvel, yeah she had little arc. But tell me, what was Drax's arc in Infinity War? Not every single character will have one. In the grand scheme, she was minor to the plot.
     
    #729 Spider-Fan, Apr 22, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2020
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  5. Sony23 Registered

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    There are ways around that, just like they did with ignoring the fact that destroying the stones should've been impossible. God of War did it all the time. For example: Instead of him being killed like a punk, he could've been using the reality stone to deceive them. This results in an ambush. A small battle ensues. During the fight Captain Marvel surprising Thanos with her powers manages to snatch a stone (e. g the Soul Stone, causing the gauntlet to depower) may even malfunction. Thanos escapes.
    I would agree with this except the problem with Thor's PTSD is that it's undercut by the amount of jokes that tells us we are supposed to be laughing at him. Not empathizing with him. His trauma is not in anyway explored. His teammates don't seem concerned for him. Nothing. He is nothing but a buffoon. An SNL parody disguised as a metaphor for depression and PTSD. It also ignores all the character progression that was made in Ragnarok and Infinity War. His talk with Rocket was more effective.
    The problem with Captain Marvel isn't that she didn't have an arc, it's that she was underwritten and horribly executed as a character. I think we're talking about two different things. I understand if Captain Marvel didn't have a well developed character arc. Would it have been great if she had one? Sure. (They could've explored her learning to work as a team as Natasha pointed out) but I agree it isn't necessary. We are talking about the handling of Captain Marvel as a character first and foremost, and all the motivations hopes, and dreams that comes with writing a character so we get a sense of her as a human being and not just a plot device. It's why I compare her to the T Rex in Jurassic Park. Because it's all she is.

    Furthermore, comparing her to Drax is a false equivalence as Drax function in the story differs from Carol's. Drax wasn't a new character that was setup at the end of your previous movie as a "call in the calvary" moment. We don't know Carol in the MCU. Carols introduction and purpose in the MCU was supposed to be a sign of the heroes receiving assistance in saving the universe. Instead, all she is a deus ex machina with no role in the plot. Drax, even in a minor role took part in the events of Infinity War. Drax may not have a character arc, but he was still written as character that interacted with other characters. He wasn't hand waived away because they didn't know what to do with him. If she wasn't going to be integral to the story, then don't include her at all. But don't BS the audience and look for contrived reasons why she doesn't appear for the remainder of your movie. It 's lazy. Just thinking about her bonding with Rocket over Quill's taste in music or sharing her concern for her family with Thor shows the potential they threw away for meandering fan service and fat jokes.
     
    #730 Sony23, Apr 23, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  6. Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014/2019 Champion

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    Comics and movies are not the same thing. So the stone being able to be destroyed in the universe of the movies is perfectly acceptable. Endgame is not Thanos's story. It's an Avengers story. It's about watching The Avengers try to live with a failure and rectify their mistakes. Santos in the previous movie one, so the conflict did not actually need to directly be the same Thanos. The entire metaphor is the past catching up to the heroes, so past Thanos kind of fits the narrative.

    Another thing your proposed beginning takes away is the sense of hopelessness. The entire first third of the movie it supposed to set up the world after Thanos won. It's supposed to feel like a hopeless world. If Thanos never destroyed the stones, then that undermines what they were going for. You don't get that same sense of weight and gravitas by doing it your way. You may get a fancy action sequence, but you're not investing the audience enough in that sense of hopelessness and like our heroes can't win. What they did in the movie was much more original, much more interesting from a narrative point of view, and pays dividends for the stakes of the rest of the movie

    Yeah, they made a few jokes about Thor. But his struggle is 100% dealt with in this movie. He has a heart-to-heart with Hulk, he has a heart-to-heart with his mother, all the heroes are just kind of watching his life spiral out of control uncomfortably. This is exploring the root of Thor's problem. His arc is 100% defined and explored in the movie. The presence of jokes does not diminish the fact that it was explored. Whether you feel the joke devalue the effectiveness of his story in the movie is completely up to you, as that's up for audience interpretation whether you enjoy something or not. But the statement that they don't explore his arc at all is just flat-out false. If you feel that way, then I don't feel like you watch the movie closely enough.

    No, what I'm seeing you argue is what you perceived to be her role in the story. Yeah we had a cutscene that hinted she was going to be in the movie, but that cutscene was basically a glorified commercial for her own solo adventure. Her role in the story is not that to come and save the day and be the answer to fixing everything. She is a supporting player like Drax or any other character that's not a lead. The heart of the story is about the original Avengers coming together once again to undo their greatest mistake. This movie was never about Carol Danvers walking in, thrashing Thanos, and undoing anything. Her role in the story is small. That's not a flaw in the narrative for a supporting character. Carol was never the shark in Jaws. Nor was she ever intended to be. Remember, they made Endgame before her solo movie, so they knew from the onset that her role was going to be small in this movie.
     
  7. AndrewGilkison Registered

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    So instead of dying "like a punk", you have Thanos hiding from the Avengers for some reason (even though he still has all the stones in your version, and can just use all of them to kill them). And then you have Captain Marvel sending him running away like a ***** after she took one of the stones from him.

    I fail to see how this is better writing then what we got.
     
  8. Sony23 Registered

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    I might be mistaken but I don't ever remember once mentioning the comics. I was talking about the rules setup in this universe. Do you always like to infer what people say or do you actually listen to what they are saying?
    I don't care what they were going for. It was dumb. There was absolutely no reason for them to put all that effort in developing Thanos in Infinity War when he is killed off so recklessly and then replaced with what is just another generic villain. Thanos was a superb villain in Infinity War. So I don't care what the metaphor is. Endgame suffers because of it.
    Was the world not in a state of hopelessness before they confronted Thanos? The point of my alternative version wasn't to replace any of the despair and hopelessness. The "apocalyptic" tone would still be there, I would much rather prefer there was no 5yr timeskip. There would just be more world building. I don't think they explored how the world (not just the U.S) is dealing with life after Thanos won)
    A few!? You serious? They didn't just make a few jokes about Thor. He was the joke.

    J. Michael Straczynski Nails the Problem With Thor in Avengers: Endgame

    The issue isn't whether it was dealt with. The issue is whether or not it was handled effectively and with respect to the issues it raises. Judging by the backlash, it doesn't. To say otherwise is to be tone deaf to those issues. Even those heart to heart scenes are undermined with fat jokes. How many films that deal with the same issues have the main character in a fat suit while other characters hurl fat jokes? NONE. He is a parody. Nothing more. Go back and note how much time is spent on making him comic relief and time spent on his teammates taking him seriously.
    Looking forward to the next Avengers film when it tackles suicide with all the jokes about hanging and jumping off a bridge. Spider-Fan will think that some deep ****!!

    Avengers Endgame spoilers: Fans are FURIOUS over THIS character twist

    WRONG. ONE MORE TIME.

    I expected her to be a character in a story with a part in that story. I expected her to be apart of the team.

    Just like Drax was.
    Just like Black Panther was.
    Just like Rocket was
    Just like Nebula was.
    Just like Star-Lord was.
    Just like Doctor Strange was.
    Just like Spider-Man was..

    What I didn't expect her role to be was a shallow uninteresting deus ex machina with no role to play other than to get other characters out of problems because the filmmakers were too lazy to give her the same treatment Black Panther, Spider-Man, Drax, Doctor Strange did. I expected her to be a well written female character..Not lazily thrown into a movie she clearly had no reason to be in. But I guess it's easier just to throw in pandering scenes of girl power. You keep excusing lazy writing. The fact you compared her to Drax as a supporting character is a contradiction in itself and shows you either chose to ignore my previous posts or just don't understand what the actual criticism is. Using Drax completely undermined your own argument.

    But keep telling me what I think her perceived role is.
    So do we just ignore that scene and pretend it isn't canon? Did it not show Nick Fury calling another character's assistance in response to the tragic event that was playing out in front of him? Did that happen or nah?....I hate to break it to you, all the cut scenes are commercials for other movies. They still link the narrative between films. Should we also disregard the cut scene at the end of Captain Marvel appearing at Avengers Headquarters? If so, Endgame did a terrible job explaining how Carol is suddenly there and able to save Tony. So which is it? I'm sure you'll choose whichever is more convenient for you.

    You can't have it both ways.
    I thought I already explained this in the Carol Danvers thread. You ignored and then built up a straw man that no one is arguing for. NO ONE. I REPEAT NO ONE is suggesting that Captain Marvel would be "walking in, thrashing Thanos" and "fix everything" That would be stupid and undermine the reason for an Avengers film. The issue with Captain Marvel is she barely qualifies what any medium of storytelling would call a character. She barely speaks to, or interacts with any other character. The Russos FAILED on a base level to give her the same care and attention that any other character in the MCU has been given. Even Mantis has more personality in these movies than she has. They could've replaced Carol with a piece of cardboard and it wouldn't have been any different. What is this small role exactly? Besides being a deus ex machina?

    No. Her role is small because rather than do the legwork and find a narrative that had all the players on the board, they decided to go the lazy way out and not bother. So instead they explain away her absence with a contrived senseless reason.(What's happening on Earth, is happening on other planets,So you probably won't see me for a long time" GTFOH) Marvel Studios is to blame. They decided to include her in the narrative. They decided to introduce her in the MCU at this given time. Fury called her. It's now up to the writers to find a valid reason why (and getting a haircut and being an Uber driver for Tony isn't good enough) Even if her role was supposed to be small that doesn't excuse the failure to write her as an actual character. That way, at least the audience identifies and/or likes her. The only time we get to see anything like this is her interaction with Peter. But it isn't enough. If this wasn't the goal then don't use her. Instead all she is a horribly written plot device.

    'Avengers: Endgame' completely wastes Captain Marvel (spoilers!)
     
    #733 Sony23, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  9. Sony23 Registered

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    Tell you what. You pay me a couple million dollars and 2 years to write it and I'll come up with something better. It was supposed to be a fun exercise in giving alternative ideas, not be a lesson in storytelling.Like I'm going to sit here write out a full blown script just for you.

    As if a quick summary in a forum is equal to a whole movie's worth.:whatever:
     
    #734 Sony23, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  10. Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014/2019 Champion

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    So tell me, where was it established that stones could not be destroyed? In fact, the mind stone was destroyed in Infinity War. They established that energies similar to the stones can destroy them. So 100% consistent.

    Lol. Hurling insults and complaining they didn't use your favorite toys the way your wanted is basically the summary of the remainder of this post. This ain't worth my time. Come back to me when you can do more than say crap like I will ''find something deep'' and can debate like an adult. Disagreement is fine and I am happy to debate. But I ain't engaging in trolling and insults.
     
    #735 Spider-Fan, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
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  11. Sony23 Registered

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    Yes. that's exactly what it was. :whatever::wall:At least I know the answer to this question now


    I am also tired of debating with someone who let's his fanboyism and cognitive dissonance get in the way of objective facts. This has been explained to you several times in several threads, yet you refuse to listen to those valid criticisms and why the execution of Captain Marvel is problematic. Come back to me when you have more than strawmans and excuses for lazy written characters. Now go and tell all those people with the same complaints they're wrong and you're right, "complaining about not using their favorite toys". You can start here:

    'Avengers: Endgame' completely wastes Captain Marvel (spoilers!)

    That was an insult to you? Really? I was just teasing. It wasn't meant to be mean spirited. Not like the ones in the movie you keep defending. But I'm sorry if you took offence.
     
  12. Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014/2019 Champion

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    Nothing about what you posted is factual. It's all opinion. Which again, if you hate how something was portrayed, that's fine. No one except you can tell you what you like. But you're not presenting a fact based argument. You're presenting your opinion on why it didn't. I don't share your assessment.
     
  13. flickchick85 Admin of Might

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    Just so you know, insulting fictional characters is allowed here. Insulting posters who are actual people is not. Best to make that line clear here because you are skirting it. Approach debates here knowing that movies are up to interpretation, and accepting the knowledge that your take on this movie and the characters in it is your opinion, not some universally accepted fact. If you can't do that without respecting the fact that plenty of other people have a different viewpoint, and without lashing out at those viewpoints like an angry child, then I suggest you stop now.
     
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  14. Sony23 Registered

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    FIRSTLY, DUE TO SEVERAL MISUNDERSTANDINGS, THIS HAS BECOME MORE HEATED THAN INTENDED OR I AM INTERESTED IN PURSUING SO THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON THE TOPIC.

    I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE TO SUPER-FAN FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE CAUSED

    In some cases yes. If you had no problem with Thor's portrayal than that's totally fine. I don't think Thor's portrayal in Endgame works because he is largely treated as a joke that stumbles throughout the film like a buffoon. The fat joke humor and VISUAL comedic tone of Chris Hemsworth in a fat suit clashes with the themes and undertones of depression and PTSD you are going for. There's a reason why films like Taxi Driver and Black Swan don't have Robert DeNiro and Natalie Portman in a fat suit like in a comedy like Shallow Hal. It doesn't work. If you want to tackle serious subjects, take them seriously, or not at all. I appreciate the attempt, but they failed IMO.

    Watch the movie again and write down how many times the scenes Thor appears in are focused on the humor and mocking his state VS his teammates actively commenting and/or showing concern for his well-being. Not once does Captain America ask him "Hey Thor. You doing OK. You seem be troubled etc". The exploration might be there, but it's not what the audience is asked to focus on. Watching any Audience Reaction videos show this clearly.

    In the case of Captain Marvel though, you contested that her portrayal is fine. You might be OK with her limited use in the film. I disagree of course, but that is where the misunderstanding lies. We are coming at this from 2 different angles. I believe as an audience member and filmgoer she does not work (OPINION) but also from a writing standpoint. That is a different argument. Your initial post claimed she had character development. I presented an objective view on a strictly a writing level she doesn't work and has no character development. I even included several sources to back up that view.

    Endgame handles Captain Marvel extremely poorly. Why? Because on a basic level Captain Marvel OBJECTIVELY fails at being a character by the very definition of the term.

    You disagree by citing her role is supposed to be a minor one much like Drax. The size of the role in the film is unimportant. We can disagree on what that role is. I wanted her in it more. You and others don't seem to be bothered by it. Either way it's not what I am ultimately arguing against. She could've had a major role. A minor role. A supporting role. It does not matter. Her role in the film is irrelevant. Why?

    Well, I'll take your Drax example. Even as a supporting character his place in the story was small but he interacted with other characters. He made jokes. Took part in conversations in the plot. It makes you feel like he's one unique character amongst other characters.

    Captain Marvel is none of those things. She remains stone faced and stoic. There is never a moment for the film to slow down to let us know her. On the ship to confront Thanos, after Rocket asks everyone about going to space, there is never a moment when one character takes the opportunity to ask her about herself..

    "So Carol. Why did you stay away so long. Do you miss Earth?

    "How are these other civilizations handling the Snap?

    "Did you check to see if your family was OK?"

    "Hey Carol. You know who Thanos is?"


    You know... The kinds of conversations that happen in movies so we relate and connect to them. Captain Marvel is a blank slate through all of her limited screentime, and in that screentime, the only purpose for her in the film is to be a plot device and then disappear. Her powers define who she is. Not her personality. That is a colossal failure on the part of the filmmakers to make an effort to write her in as character with a valid reason to be there, a participating member of the team - however the size of her role in the overarching plot- and is not just there to get your other characters out of trouble to service the plot. You might say that was her role. Great. But that doesn't qualify her as a character much less one with character development. Otherwise by that definition, the T-Rex in Jurassic Park should also be considered a character. Agree or disagree. That is undeniable.

    Avengers: Endgame Doesn't Know What to Do With [SPOILER]

    Now let's compare that to Drax. Drax with his limited screentime, his personality comes through. Whether it's sense of humor in one scene or his rage in another. We respond to him as an audience member, because we get to know who Drax is. He fights along other characters. Argues and insults them (Well mostly Mantis anyway). If on the other hand, Drax was a new character that barely spoke, showed up to fight then disappeared to feed his cat until the final battle, that would also be considered a badly written and executed character.

    Captain Marvel never gets to do anything like this. All they accomplished is giving the Brie Larson/Captain Marvel haters more reason to hate her. Kelly Thompson gives her more personality in the current run of Captain Marvel than Markus and McFeely did in all of Endgame..Think about that. A written piece of dialogue in a comic book does a better job at conveying her personality better than what they give Brie Larson to work with in a film with a real life human performance. Stating that her role in Endgame was forced and awkwardly placed is just not my opinion. It's a fact by any writing/filmmaking standards.
     
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  15. The Caped Knight Shield Avenger

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    Happy one Year Anniversary to Earth's Mightiest Heroes!
     
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  16. The Caped Knight Shield Avenger

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    Mondo has done it again !
     
  17. KevTravels Registered

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    Speaking of character growth:

    Rhodey is just dropping one liners all film especially at Thor's expense. He should have been running the Avengers a alongside Nat. Could it have hurt to include a scene of him and Tony or maybe he and Rocket? I am still bummed he got this KICKASS new armor and didn't do crap in the battle.ciall

    Clint sees his family Snapped and turns into a maniac. Oh wait and he had a mohawk! We needed another scene of like Rhodey watching footage of a cartel being decimated and then realizing it's Clint right before contacting Nat. Once she recruits him and he goes back in time he does nothing else except witnessing Nat sacrifice herself.

    they gave Cap so much more screentime in this but Thor still had a lot as well though the fat jokes got old so fast​
     
  18. KevTravels Registered

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    I will say i did enjoy Endgame conveying how much of a family they were.
     
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  19. Kane52630 Veridis Quo

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  20. The Caped Knight Shield Avenger

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    This is quite fascinating to consider from the Original Six Avengers. Iron Man edge out because he had more screen time in Infinity War. Captain America follows because he had less due to the fact he was a fugitive Nomad. Thor had a decent amount. No surprise that Hawkeye has the least amount in Avengers films. FB_IMG_1588212763351.jpg
     
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  21. Punisher_MAX Ol' Painless

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    now that I have both IW and Endgame on Disney+, I literally watch them both in one sitting and consider them one movie.
     
  22. The Caped Knight Shield Avenger

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  23. Coolkid Registered

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    I've always been curious how the story would move forward in Endgame, if Thanos was still alive with the Gauntlet and all 6 stones. If he came to know that Avengers were trying to undo the snap, with one snap he would reset the entire Universe. So having Thanos around with all stones won't workout. Killing Thanos and using Time Travel or going Multiverse was the only option to collect stones and reverse the snap. If anyone else has an idea how story can move forward with Thanos being alive with stones, please share your point of view.
     
    #748 Coolkid, Jun 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  24. PunyGod Astronomer

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    If Thanos reset the universe there are only two possibilities:

    1. He resets every possible universe in the multiverse. In which case he wins for all time. (unless the population gets too high again and needs another culling :funny:)

    2. He only reset the MCU. In which case someone from another universe would have to initiate any plan to undo it.
     
  25. NormalTiara Registered

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    I’m giving this the recognition that it deserves. If you like Minecraft then you’ll definitely like this
     

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