Official UFC Thread - Part 3

[Paroxysm]

Dana White Announces Jake Ellenberger Vs. Martin Kampmann As 5 Round Ultimate Fighter Finale Main Event
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/3/2...artin-kampmann-vs-jake-ellenberger-as-5-round


Anderson Silva And Chael Sonnen To Rematch In Rio Soccer Stadium In Front Of 80,000 Fans
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/3/21/2890676/ufc-silva-sonnen-rematch-rio-soccer-stadium-news

Awwwww Yeah!

 

[TheVileOne]

I like the Ellenberger/Kampmann fight a lot. Makes sense. A lot of momentum at stake for Ellenberger, a win would mean seven wins in a row. You might have to give him a title shot at that point.

 

[Paroxysm]

Here's a weird video of Mike Tyson and Rosie O'Donnell talking about MMA

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/mike-tyson-rosie-odonnell-mma-video_n_1374460.html

It's nice to know me and Mike are on the same page about Fedor.

 

[E-Man]

Iron Mike knows what's up about Fedor. They're too similar. Both guys who were small heavyweights dominating in their prime. In the interest of starting a flame war though, I'm going to say one thing....


Fedor isn't the GOAT anymore. Anderson Silva is. Bring on the flames!

Oh yeah, GSP passed Fedor too. Flame at me bros!

 

[Paroxysm]

In the grand scale of things I think he is but I agree that at the present time he isn't anymore.

I just think Fedor captivates people, there's something humble about him that people like.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Yeah, I'll agree to that.

Fedor is the GOAT, but he's past his prime now and should retire. The Last Emperor isnt as fast as he use to be, and he isn't motivated and hungry anymore. It's over.

 

[TheVileOne]

Fedor is not the GOAT. Anderson Silva has already far surpassed what Fedor accomplished.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Fedor is not the GOAT. Anderson Silva has already far surpassed what Fedor accomplished.

No.

Anderson has spent most of his career in Middleweight division -- the UFC's most swallow division. His most prominent victories come via Belfort, Hendo and Franklin. So please, Silva (in no shape or form) has not surpassed Fedor.

He's the P4P King, but not the GOAT.

 

[E-Man]

Anderson has beaten better opponents in a better weight class, and he's done it in a way that makes top fighters look like clowns. He's the GOAT right now, but GSP is really close. Nobody in MMA has beaten more elite fighters than GSP, but Anderson is so damn dominant that it's hard for me to put GSP ahead of him.

Aldo and Jones will probably be in this convoy next year, but right now my top 5 is:

1. The Spider
2. GSP
3. Fedor
4. Hughes
5. Chuck? It gets hazy here.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Cote?
Leites?
Leben?
Lutter?
Maia?
Sonnen?
Okami?

Bulls**t.

 

[E-Man]

Cote?
Leites?
Leben?
Lutter?
Maia?
Sonnen?
Okami?

Bulls**t.

Cote was an injury replacement for Okami. Even then it's not like he's ascrub. He's an okay fighter. Not a highlight of Anderson's career, but you can't always fight top guys.

Leites was like Cote. Okami wasn't ready when the fight was set up, and on top of that he beat Nate Marquardt. Anderson just beat Hendo, and had already beat Rich twice. Somebody had to get the shot.

I laugh at when people act like Leben is a can. The dude has one of the best records in the UFC at his weight class. He's a very good fighter. Not championship material, but his record is better than many other guys. With that being said it was Anderson's debut fight in the UFC and he destroyed him in less than a minute.

Lutter was just a TUF thing. Not a highlight there at all.

Maia only lost once, and has some of the best BJJ in all of MMA. He was a legit top 10 guy who stepped in to replace an injured Vitor. What's funny is that people kept screaming for Maia to get a title shot when he was 4-0 in the UFC because back then the claim was that Anderson would get beat by any elite grappler. Even taking the idiots out of the equation Maia's record is very impressive.

How can you list Sonnen? He straight up beat the number 2 ranked guys twice. No matter how you slice it that's as elite as it gets. Cro Cop didn't even do that, and I imagine that you'd probably say the Cro Cop win for Fedor was better than any of Anderson's wins.

Okami is a perennial top 5 guy. He's been ranked for a long time now. Not only that, but considering that Anderson outright destroyed him as if he was an amateur makes it one of the best wins he's had. He was also like Maia. Hailed by Anderson haters as the guy to beat him, then talked about as a can once he got clowned.

You're also leaving off beating Mach Sakurai and Tesuji Kato to win the Shooto title. Those were two of the best weleterweights in the business back then. Hell Mach is a legend, and Anderson was the first to beat him. Back then people said he was the best fighter regardless of weight class.

Then there is beating Jeremy Horn, Carlos Newton, Rich Franklin, Marquardt, Forrest, Hendo and Vitor and just owning them something fierce in the process.

Fedor has a great record as well, but the fact that he fought in the heavyweight division hurts him. Plus he never was as dominant in the ring as Anderson was. Sure Fedor destroyed some guys, but he's never just straight up clowned dudes like Anderson has in the past.

Plus looking at both of their banner wins Anderson comes out on top.

Kato
Sakurai
Newton
Horn
Franklin
Hendo
Marquardt
Forrest
Maia
Sonnen
Belfort
Okami

vs.

Nog
Cro Cop
Arlovski
Herring
Sylvia
Coleman
Hunt
TK
Schilt
Rogers
Randleman

 

[Paroxysm]

Fedor was small for a heavy weight and usually fought guys bigger than him. If a fighter wasn't as skilled they were always heavier. lol

I just think Fedor has had a more interesting career. His rise and fall is what makes him number 1 to me.

 

[TheVileOne]

Silva has had far the better run in the UFC. Over a similar amount of time, Silva defended his title more times against tougher competition. Fedor only defended his belt like three times. As far as cans go: Hong Man Choi and Zuluzinho. They put the Pride heavyweight champion against Zuluzinho at Shockwave 2005. That's a joke.

Also the middleweight division isn't really shallow at all. It only looks that way because Silva is so dominant and he's so far ahead of all his competition.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

When the dust settles, I don't see how Anderson's career and wins are far more superior than Fedor's. It's a no-contest, quite frankly. Now, that isn't to say Fedor hasn't fought cans, but fans would be fooling themselves if the same couldn't be stated about Silva.

The UFC Middleweight division has been depleted for years, and no matter how hard the UFC tries the market the bouts, the audience and fans are aware (90% of the time) the challenger doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell (Cote, Leites, Leben, Lutter, Okami, Marquardt, Sonnen and Maia).

At this endeavor, Silva's record is one or two big wins away from becoming the best of all time, but he has yet to face GSP and/or Lombard -- the last remaining match ups. Hell, a bout/win over Jon Jones could be just as colossal as a bout/win over GSP... but it's yet to happen. Instead, Silva's next fight will be against Sonnen (a known steroid-user who has doesn't even possess mid-tier striking) again.

I shudder to think who the UFC manages to spit out next when Silva sacrifices Sonnen.

With Fedor, after his trilogy with Nogueira, his highly-anticipated and long-awaited bout with Cro Cop, his match with Arlovski (Roach's product at the time) and his victories over Coleman and Randleman, it's arduous to try and make the argument that these wins have been surpassed. Interestingly enough, Fedor was the underdog in most of these bouts, and Fedor beat them all at their own strengths. To me, those wins are what cemented Fedor's legacy as the greatest of all time.

Anderson Silva, however, has rarely met that type of challenge in his career. So when someone says Silva has surpassed Fedor (when both records are almost similar), I can't help but laugh it off. The Spider hasn't done enough, in my opinion. Until Anderson faces off against GSP and Lombard, I cannot fathom this talk of Silva being the greatest of all time.

 

[E-Man]

Fedor the underdog in the Randleman and Coleman fights? Really? Coleman had been out of MMA for a about two years, and he lost to Nog and beat an over the hill Don Frye. He had a bit of a career resurgence, but I remember Fedor being favored back then. There's no way in hell Randleman was the favorite. He has always been a guy with great athleticism and really poor MMA IQ. He was sporadic as hell back then, and barring that upset over Cro Cop he was an after thought.

Arlovski was a good win for Fedor, but considering he lost a ton of fights in a row since then it takes away a bit of luster. Not saying that Fedor isn't great at all, but that wasn't one of his better wins considering other guys did what he did. Then the Cro Cop win is great, but most of Cro Cop's career is hype. Not saying he wasn't an elite fighter at one point, but his record isn't all that spectacular in terms of who he's beat.

I really don't get this idea that Anderson needs to fight Lombard. Seriously. Lombard has beaten no one to even be on Anderson's level at all. I think he's good, but it's hard to tell how good he is because he's been fighting cans for so long. That's not even a knock to him. It's just a reality of fighting outside the UFC at middleweight. Besides, he'd easily get hurt against Anderson. He ducks his head and swings for the overhands far too often. A 5'9 guy doing that against the best striker in MMA history with that reach advantage would get killed.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Fedor the underdog in the Randleman and Coleman fights? Really? Coleman had been out of MMA for a about two years, and he lost to Nog and beat an over the hill Don Frye. He had a bit of a career resurgence, but I remember Fedor being favored back then. There's no way in hell Randleman was the favorite. He has always been a guy with great athleticism and really poor MMA IQ. He was sporadic as hell back then, and barring that upset over Cro Cop he was an after thought.

Coleman can be considered to be the Couture before Couture.

Fedor was favored to win the bouts in the stand up department, but every fan assumed once Coleman and Randleman got the takedown, it'd be over for Fedor. And considering Fedor's TDD has never been top-tier, fans believed that Fedor would be smothered.

Arlovski was a good win for Fedor, but considering he lost a ton of fights in a row since then it takes away a bit of luster.

Arlovski was on a win-streak and was considered to be the second best Heavyweight in the world at the time by virtually every major publication. Thus, why he was ranked #2 in every list. Add the fact that he was being trained by Freddie Roach, he was a Sambo World Champion, and his boxing skills were labeled as 'the best in the Heavyweight division', and you've got yourself a fan's wetdream for a fight. In fact, fans were demanding a Arlovski-Fedor fight for years.

And trust me, what Fedor did to Andrei was a big deal. More than half of the MMA community predicted that Fedor would finally get knocked out.

Then the Cro Cop win is great, but most of Cro Cop's career is hype. Not saying he wasn't an elite fighter at one point, but his record isn't all that spectacular in terms of who he's beat.

No denying this.

However, it was the fashion in how Fedor beat Cro Cop that continued to create The Last Emperor's legacy. Fedor stood toe-to-toe with the world's most feared striker (at the time) and won.

I really don't get this idea that Anderson needs to fight Lombard. Seriously. Lombard has beaten no one to even be on Anderson's level at all. I think he's good, but it's hard to tell how good he is because he's been fighting cans for so long. That's not even a knock to him. It's just a reality of fighting outside the UFC at middleweight. Besides, he'd easily get hurt against Anderson. He ducks his head and swings for the overhands far too often. A 5'9 guy doing that against the best striker in MMA history with that reach advantage would get killed.

I don't think Lombard is that poorly skilled or stupid. He's trained with the Cuban National Boxing Team on several occasions and earned a reputation with them. Now, Hector has fought recklessly as of late but the guys he's been fighting have posed no real threat to him.

In my opinion, Lombard is a bad match-up for Silva. He has crazy knockout power and his hand-speed remains underrated. Hector also has a granite chin. I've yet to see him get rocked once in his career.

The worse part about Lombard isn't even his stand up. It's his explosive Judo throws/sweeps and ground game. Although he hasn't showcased those skills in quite awhile, that part of his arsenal is still present and dangerous.

I believe it's a match that must happen before Anderson retires. I'm truly interested in seeing how Silva handles an Olympian in Judo. Wrestling Takedowns differ from Judo Takedowns so it'll be a unique challenge for The Spider.

 

[Project862006]

anderson imo has a better record

Okami
Franklin x2
Vitor
Sonnen
Henderson

is damn impressive

even anderson's weakest fight - would have to be leites or irvin is still better than fedor's HMC,Zulu,etc.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

anderson imo has a better record

Okami
Franklin x2
Vitor
Sonnen
Henderson

is damn impressive

even anderson's weakest fight - would have to be leites or irvin is still better than fedor's HMC,Zulu,etc.

Except for Hendo, Franklin and Belfort, I don't see it.

 

[Project862006]

okami and sonnen are great wins

even marquardt is a great win

how are these not great wins

okami was 10-2 in ufc when anderson beat him

sonnen was universally the #2 MW In the world when silva beat him

 

[DoomsdayApex]

okami and sonnen are great wins

even marquardt is a great win

how are these not great wins

okami was 10-2 in ufc when anderson beat him

sonnen was universally the #2 MW In the world when silva beat him

Sonnen has pillow hands, horrid submission defense, and rudimentary striking. He has also used steroids -- so his record is now tainted by that matter.

Okami is merely a gatekeeper, and nothing more. Most of his wins are unimpressive. Yushin is just a 'good' fighter, not a great one. His wrestling and striking never posed a threat to Silva.

Marquardt is a choke artist. He's one who has (or had) alot of potential but when the time came for him to capitalize or make the clutch pass in 4th quarter, he clammed up. He goes from being an excellent fighter to an overwhelmed inexperienced one in big fights.

 

[Project862006]

wow sounds like bunch of excuses to discredit top level wins

okami is far from a gate keeper

chris leben is a gate keeper
clay guida is a gate keeper

okami is a top 5 MW with a solid record and had been #1 contender twice in the ufc

while his skills never posed a threat to silva

neither did belforts striking which silva just bobbed and weaved with his hands down

no one is a threat to silva so not really an endorsing comment

 

[CrypticOne]

Anderson has a great record, don't get me wrong, but yeah, the competition he has faced hasn't exactly been top tier. He's had a few "give-me's" in my opinion.

I think GSP has had more of a road in top tier competition, and I do not like GSP, but he has beaten down opponents with ease.

I really think the 185 pound division is a very shallow. Anderson needs to move up to 205.

I feel, that if you can beat 5-6 people in either the LHW, WW, or LW division (when you're the champ), there is really something to say about you being the best in the world. Those are the toughest divisions.

And don't get me wrong, Anderson is the best in the world, right now.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Call it what you want, but it's the truth. And I'm not the only who has that point of view. Silva fans have been bashing or belittling Anderson's competition for years, but the moment his legacy is called into question, that's when fans categorize all of his wins as great accomplishments.

The UFC's Middleweight division is the one division that I see as the most swallow and depleted pool of talent, and it hasn't improved. Other than Anderson, no fighter in that division has captured my attention.

Don't like my opinion, don't respond to it.

 

[Mace Bloodstone]

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah no. Fedor only had to defend his title three times and he was given numerous cans to fight often.

Hector Lombard is good and all but he's got an extremely padded record that is padded with lots of cans.