Official UFC Thread - Part 4

[El Bastardo]

Considering the preliminary doctor reports state it looks like he has nerve damage to his right biceps brachii now, no, I'd say he didn't get very lucky.

Very lucky would have been making it out unscathed.

 

[E-Man]

I disagree on Weidman/Boetsch, Weidman looked good against Munoz caught him with a nice elbow.. however against Demian Maia he looked like ****. I realise he took the fight on 2/3 week notice.. however he still looked like **** regardless.

Whereas Bisping looked good against Stann & roughed him up pretty well, looked very good against Sonnen & in my opinion, he beat Sonnen. Then before that he has wins over Jason & Dan Miller, Akiyama & to a lesser extent Rivera.

If Bisping isn't getting the next title shot, he should be fighting the winner of Weidman/Boetsch & then the winner of that gets the next one.

Silva is supposedly tied up anyway for possibly the next 12 months, he has Bonnar at 153 then he supposedly has a catch weight fight with GSP assuming GSP wins his fight with Condit at UFC 154 (Which he will) then hopefully that superfight can take place around June/July barring any injuries. There are no real stand out challengers at WW or MW for either fighter that I can think off, off the top of my head so hopefully this fight finally happens.

Bisping looked good against Stann, but that's his best win ever. The Sonnen fight may have been close, but he still lost in the end. For a guy like Bisping he just needs to beat higher quality opponents consistently. Akiyama, Mayhem, and Jorge Rivera are just journeymen who are mid level. Weidman hasn't been some unstoppable foe that just has to fight Anderson, but he's on a winning streak that Bisping is not on. Plus he's looked better in his wins than Bisping. It would be nice if they fought each other, but since Weidman is fighting Boetsch I could see Bisping fighting Okami. A win over Okami would do wonders for Bisping. I don't think he'd win, but that'd make a really good case for him since he's never had many big wins in his career since winning TUF.

 

[I'm Venom]

Jones vs. Belfort was very exciting for that first round.

 

[Mace Bloodstone]

 

[Project862006]

Cub Swanson looking like a beast lately 3 great KO's in a row

 

[CrypticOne]

Yeah, Cub has been beastin' it lately. I wonder what he's eating?!

 

[I'm Venom]

I thought it was over for a second there. I give Vitor credit, he did better than anyone else has against Jones.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah, Cub has been beastin' it lately. I wonder what he's eating?!

He's with Greg Jackson, so steroids and vaseline . JK

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Let's be honest here, if Shogun's BJJ was rendered useless against Jones, then Belfort's wasn't going to fair any better. Vitor almost caught Jon in an Armbar but the odds were always going to be against him. Jones has great posture and submission defense, so the advantage clearly belonged to Jon.

Nothing against Belfort, but he virtually had no chance at winning.

 

[TheVileOne]

Well Jon was clearly hurt by the armbar. I think it just speaks to his toughness and ability that he was able to get out of that.

I certainly wasn't expecting Belfort to almost beat him with an armbar like that since Belfort almost always wins by knockout.

Also September 29 Strikeforce event cancelled. Gilbert Melendez was injured and withdrew. Showtime said they wouldn't show the event without Melendez's title fight.

 

[CrypticOne]

Let's be honest here, if Shogun's BJJ was rendered useless against Jones, then Belfort's wasn't going to fair any better. Vitor almost caught Jon in an Armbar but the odds were always going to be against him. Jones has great posture and submission defense, so the advantage clearly belonged to Jon.

Nothing against Belfort, but he virtually had no chance at winning.

The problem with the Shogun/Jones fight was that Shogun kept looking to sweep Jones. Bad move and no way you're doing that against a guy that has Jones' wrestling credentials. He should have looked for armbars.

 

[Project862006]

vitor is a Carlson Gracie black belt and has been one since 1996 i wouldn't even joke about shogun having the same level of bjj

 

[E-Man]

Shogun's BJJ is more positional than sub oriented. He's a guy that's good at getting good sweeps on people and controlling guys when he's on top. That's what was crazy about him beating Arona like that since Arona is pretty much the same type, and Arona is similar to Cael Sanderson in ADCC considering he's never been beat there. Vitor has a different BJJ style, and that's how he caught Jones so fast. It's one of those things people forget about since Vitor got famous for his hands.

 

[B]

Let's be honest here, if Shogun's BJJ was rendered useless against Jones, then Belfort's wasn't going to fair any better. Vitor almost caught Jon in an Armbar but the odds were always going to be against him. Jones has great posture and submission defense, so the advantage clearly belonged to Jon.

Nothing against Belfort, but he virtually had no chance at winning.

I'd dispute that Jones has great submission defense, he was caught in a deep armbar & was very lucky to escape, he then was nearly caught in a triangle in I believe it was the 3rd round & was again fortunate that the bell rang before Vitor started to work on really sinking it in.

Most guys grab a wrist then go to work on trying to either get back to their feet or move their hips to try & throw a submission up, however the reason Jon somewhat avoids most submission attempts, at least in my opinion, is because when somebody grabs his wrist, that arm is still a problem because he still uses the elbow to strike with.

I'm sure behind closed doors even though he is billed as a white belt, he is competent in defending submissions. I mean Lesnar was billed as a white belt & completely destroyed one of the strongest if not the strongest Jiu-Jitsu guys in MMA Frank Mir on the ground. But would I describe Jones's defense as great after seeing him caught in an armbar & triangle by a guy that isn't exactly known as one of the top 5 dangerous guys to put on their back? Certainly not.

If anything after seeing the Vitor fight it opens up more discussions on how a Silva/Jones fight might go seeing as Silva's weakness is supposedly wrestlers if you listen to experts, Jones is a wrestler, but Silva is very good & active off his back.. as well as being somebody with unparalleled striking ability. If GSP/Silva happens at a catchweight of 178lbs as is being reported, I wonder would Silva fight Jones at a catchweight of 195lbs if Jones could make the cut..

 

[Project862006]

jones has always been susceptible to subs he is very lazy when he is in someone's guard i was waiting for someone to take advantage of this

this constant position jones uses to rain elbows has always left him for an arm bar

look where his right arm is

same position it was in when vitor grabbed the arm bar

 

[CrypticOne]

The only chance anyone has at LHW to win against Jones is in that first 30 seconds. If he gets you to the ground, especially now, where he is going to learn from his mistake from this Belfort fight, the fight will be over. Rush him as best you can, and take the chance of getting knocked.

 

[B]

jones has always been susceptible to subs he is very lazy when he is in someone's guard i was waiting for someone to take advantage of this

this constant position jones uses to rain elbows has always left him for an arm bar

look where his right arm is

same position it was in when vitor grabbed the arm bar

This.

As I said before the fight as well, he is also more susceptible to armbars, triangles, heel hooks & kneebars in particular due to the length of his arms & legs. I almost wish Vitor had taken the Palhares approach & just closed the gap explosively & dove at a leg.

 

[Project862006]

vitor really should of grabbed the leg and swept him like vinny did earlier in the night

would of avoided the escape

 

[brainchild81]

The only chance anyone has at LHW to win against Jones is in that first 30 seconds. If he gets you to the ground, especially now, where he is going to learn from his mistake from this Belfort fight, the fight will be over. Rush him as best you can, and take the chance of getting knocked.

Probably the best way to go about it. Still probably won't work, but if you don't close the gap he's gonna pick you apart from a distance like he does to everybody. Jones is a very tough puzzle for anybody

 

[I'm Venom]

If anything after seeing the Vitor fight it opens up more discussions on how a Silva/Jones fight might go seeing as Silva's weakness is supposedly wrestlers if you listen to experts, Jones is a wrestler, but Silva is very good & active off his back.. as well as being somebody with unparalleled striking ability. If GSP/Silva happens at a catchweight of 178lbs as is being reported, I wonder would Silva fight Jones at a catchweight of 195lbs if Jones could make the cut..

Why would he do a catchweight when he's fought at 205 before? Silva was talking about moving up to Heavyweight a few years ago.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Do Shogun and Belfort have dissimilar grappling styles? Yes. I won't dispute that. Rua loves to sweep his opponents, search for leglocks, and escape underneath the opponent's guard. Belfort's style differs considering he's the far more active grappler on his back, but I wouldn't proclaim Belfort to be the superior grappler between the two. Rua has a few impressive credentials himself.

Great might have been the wrong choice. Perhaps, serviceable is the more accurate term to define Jones' submission defense. I would concede that Jon's abnormally long limbs serve him well in the striking realm, but also gives him a disadvantage on the ground against a skilled grappler. His elbow attacks absolutely leave him open to submissions but I'd argue that so does everything else. It's a risk but it's paid off for Jones significantly.

Did Jon get lucky the other night? In my opinion, no. As quick as Vitor locked in that armbar, I still felt that Jones was going to posture up and power through the submission attempt, and he did. Jon's size and strength played a factor. So while Belfort is a talented BJJ practitioner, I never once believed that Jones was going to get submitted by Vitor. I'm not saying it'll never happen but Jon's size, strength and wrestling background will make it immensely difficult for any fighter to make him tap out [on their back].

 

[Project862006]

^i think he did get lucky jones did an escape that was 100% wrong you never stand up and pull your arm out it is just gonna make sub even tighter

belfort made plenty of mistake which helped jon escape with the arm bar he didn't turn the thumb or grab the leg to sweep him vitor even said he softened the pressure when he heard/felt it pop

vitor really needs to go train with rousey lol

 

[I'm Venom]

Vitor should have to work his way back up, but if he does, I'd like to see what he can do if his hand isn't broken and with a full camp.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

^i think he did get lucky jones did an escape that was 100% wrong you never stand up and pull your arm out it is just gonna make sub even tighter

belfort made plenty of mistake which helped jon escape with the arm bar he didn't turn the thumb or grab the leg to sweep him vitor even said he softened the pressure when he heard/felt it pop

vitor really needs to go train with rousey lol

As a Judoka and BJJ practitioner with long limbs, I can say with certainty that it's worked for me nearly every time. I've yet to be submitted by my opponent while he or she is on their back. No armbar or triangle choke has come close, thus far.

 

[El Bastardo]

Doomsday's got this one pegged on the nose.

Remember, just because a general rule applies to general cases doesn't mean it trumps biomechanics. Once you get into the realm of different, that's where biomechanic analyzation really comes in handy - though, really, it's always handy for seeing why general rules apply in the first place. Regardless, as applicable biomechanics change in a given instance, so too does the application of a general rule change.