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Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

Goddessreicho said:
Um, it wasn't Jean who wanted to sleep with him. It was personality number two, Phoenix.

Plain ole Jean never once made a move on Logan in X3. In X2, sure she may have entertained the thought, but did she act on it. NOPE.

Who does she marry, Scott. Who does she shift reality for, Scott. Who shows Jean what love is really about, Scott. Who does the Xavier shove in her face when she's about to lose control, Scott. "Look (holds up glasses), you killed the man you LOVE!"

Any time someone mentions Scott to her, she realizes what she has done. Because she killed the man she LOVED!

No, you're wrong about that. When Jean wakes up in the med lab, she's her old self. She's calm, happy, and relaxed until the room starts to shake and Logan begins asking her questions. She even remains herself long enough to beg Logan to kill her.

And again, you're dragging the comics into a movie discussion. Jean never marries Scott in the movies, nor does she shift reality for him. And I never said Jean didn't love Scott, but I am saying that their love could not be the perfect, immortal thing that people are trying to make it out to be if we accept the fact that Jean entertained lustful thoughts toward Logan. And I think there is proof of this. To quote Famke from the extra-footage interview on the X1 dvd, she said that Scott "noticed a sort of attraction between the two", meaning Jean and Logan.
 
Mike059jig said:
only thing good in the lab scene was "where's scott" everything before was unneccessary

Obviously not, or they wouldn't have filmed it.
 
Are we still discussing this? You'd think that when Zak Penn, the guy who wrote the script, says that Jean doesn't love Logan, that people would accept that and move on.

undomiel said:
No, no -- I completely agree with PowersofMind! It's actually more than just a smile of affection when Logan returns. She chides him about "running off", and does the same thing later right before he kisses her. ("The good guy sticks around...") It's a great point to illustrate that Jean does have deeper feelings for Logan, because it shows she's exasperated with him for his disappearances.

Talk about reaching. Just because Jean smiled and teased Logan a bit (which indicated nothing but friendship and good chemistry) you think its a sign of deeper feelings? Right.

And being exasperated by a little disappearance when people are EXPECTED to disappear (like being attacked by commandos) is called being CLINGY.
 
D-scythe said:
Are we still discussing this? You'd think that when Zak Penn, the guy who wrote the script, says that Jean doesn't love Logan, that people would accept that and move on.



Talk about reaching. Just because Jean smiled and teased Logan a bit (which indicated nothing but friendship and good chemistry) you think its a sign of deeper feelings? Right.

And being exasperated by a little disappearance when people are EXPECTED to disappear (like being attacked by commandos) is called being CLINGY.

JEAN SMILED AND TEASED LOGAN A BIT? JUST FRIENDSHIP? MY MAN IF YOU ARE A DUDE YOU MUST NOT GOT HIT ON MUCH ITS CALLED FLIRTING. JEAN TOTALLY DIGGED ON WOLVIE HES THE BAD BOY YOU CHEAT WITH BUT NEVER SETTLE DOWN ITS CALLED LUST.
 
"Look what happened to Chocolate. You Killed the one thing you loved Most because you couldn't control your powers!!"- Xavier

"NO!! STOP IT!" -Jean

...
 
D-scythe said:
Are we still discussing this? You'd think that when Zak Penn, the guy who wrote the script, says that Jean doesn't love Logan, that people would accept that and move on.



Talk about reaching. Just because Jean smiled and teased Logan a bit (which indicated nothing but friendship and good chemistry) you think its a sign of deeper feelings? Right.

And being exasperated by a little disappearance when people are EXPECTED to disappear (like being attacked by commandos) is called being CLINGY.

Right. But why is someone clingy? What makes a woman clingy? If she wants to cling to a guy, it means she wants to hang on to him! It means she wants more than a one-night stand with him. She wants him to be there for her. And I believe that's what was being illustrated about Jean's feelings for Logan. She wants more, but is afraid she can't have it, so she keeps pretending she's not interested, but we all know she is.
 
DarknessOfDeath said:
"Look what happened to Chocolate. You Killed the one thing you loved Most because you couldn't control your powers!!"- Xavier

"NO!! STOP IT!" -Jean

...

Haha. You... have issues.
 
So i've noticed.

Speaking of which I have a Hershey bar calling my name from in the fridge.
 
SEXYLESTAT said:
JEAN SMILED AND TEASED LOGAN A BIT? JUST FRIENDSHIP? MY MAN IF YOU ARE A DUDE YOU MUST NOT GOT HIT ON MUCH ITS CALLED FLIRTING. JEAN TOTALLY DIGGED ON WOLVIE HES THE BAD BOY YOU CHEAT WITH BUT NEVER SETTLE DOWN ITS CALLED LUST.

Did I ever say she didn't feel lust? No, I did not - I just said she didn't feel love. Man, you must not get hit on a lot either if you're a dude because you tend to miss a lot of important details.

undomiel said:
Right. But why is someone clingy? What makes a woman clingy? If she wants to cling to a guy, it means she wants to hang on to him! It means she wants more than a one-night stand with him. She wants him to be there for her. And I believe that's what was being illustrated about Jean's feelings for Logan. She wants more, but is afraid she can't have it, so she keeps pretending she's not interested, but we all know she is.

The thought that Logan is an extraordinairy fighter and that the school was getting attacked doesn't seem like a good reason for Jean to be glad that Logan is there to defend the students to you, is it?

So, wanting an able fighter around when her students are being attacked by unknown commandos is a sign of love. If you want to believe that, fine with me.
 
The thought that Logan is an extraordinairy fighter and that the school was getting attacked doesn't seem like a good reason for Jean to be glad that Logan is there to defend the students to you, is it?

So, wanting an able fighter around when her students are being attacked by unknown commandos is a sign of love. If you want to believe that, fine with me.

Jean did not know that the school was going to be attacked. And she was upset that he had left before, which had nothing to do with fear of the school being attacked, because he left during a peaceful time and when he came back there had been no attack. Also, no one else besides Jean seems bothered by this, which you would expect they would if it were an issue of safety. Jean takes it personally because she likes him.

Also, Jean gets all wistful when they're all in Stryker's place and she looks and sees his headset on the table. "He's gone," she sighs. She's clearly not afraid -- she's sad because she knows he has this tendency to just go off and do his own thing, which would affect any relationship he might have with her.
 
undomiel said:
Jean did not know that the school was going to be attacked. And she was upset that he had left before, which had nothing to do with fear of the school being attacked, because he left during a peaceful time and when he came back there had been no attack. Also, no one else besides Jean seems bothered by this, which you would expect they would if it were an issue of safety. Jean takes it personally because she likes him.

Also, Jean gets all wistful when they're all in Stryker's place and she looks and sees his headset on the table. "He's gone," she sighs. She's clearly not afraid -- she's sad because she knows he has this tendency to just go off and do his own thing, which would affect any relationship he might have with her.

I think you're looking a bit too deeply into a single "He's gone" or "OMG, you're okay!"
 
She says Logan's name as she has her flashbacks in the infirmary...something i just noticed... :p heh... she should have said scott...not logan :rolleyes:
 
D-scythe said:
I think you're looking a bit too deeply into a single "He's gone" or "OMG, you're okay!"

I agree. When the writers of X2 (on the DVD commentary) state that "they didn't want Jean and Logan to kiss....but they had her be the one to pull away" or "make it clear that Jean wanted Scott", I'm more inclined to think that they were just adding the Jean/Logan interplay of act 1 and 2 (of X2) to complete their flirting from X1. They finally completely killed that arc when they had Scott and Jean basically beat the audience over the heads with how much they loved each other (the scene after they attacked each other.) I think the "flirtation" was meant to solidify Jean and Scott's relationship....leading up to X3. But we know what happened with Penn/Kinberg and Ratner's X3. They went in another direction that was set-up in X2...Jean picking Logan. Except that arc was already completed....So basically, they wanted Wolverine to be the focus of X3....
 
This conversation is going in circles. It has been stated many times in this very thread that Jean did not necessarily love Logan. And as a matter of fact, it is quite irrelevant. In fact, I think it's not really important if even Logan loved Jean. Here's how I see things:

1. Phoenix killed Scott not because Jean didn't love him. That was the first emergence of Phoenix. Because of that and because not even Jean expected it, she totally lost control of her mental state and her powers as well. I think that's what knocked Jean out and that's why initially she didn't remember any of it.

2. In the climax Logan stated that he was the only one who could stop her. He would try to help Jean resurface but he expected to take some damage in that chaos. Maybe others could have reached her too, but they'd probably not survive. Plus, due to the fact that Logan was more to the liking of the Phoenix (and maybe due to whatever feelings Jean had for him, not necessarily love, mind you) she would be more lenient towards him.

3. As I already said, I'm not really sure if it matters if Logan loved Jean or not. Sure it played a part, but I think Logan would try to do the same if it was Storm or somebody else in Jean's place. He would try to make them come to their senses and somehow sort it out. I think it fits Wolverine's character, he doesn't really care about himself, but he'd do anything for those select few that are close to him. His feelings for Jean just added to his motivation.

4. Phoenix certainly wasn't trying to kill him. She simply toyed with him. We'd seen earlier what she could do, she had thrown Logan across the room, she'd demolecuralized people in a split-second and wrecked entire buildings, she was a powerful enough telepath to challenge (and maybe defeat) the professor. The entire island was being destroyed but she spared Wolverine, because the animal in him was fascinating to her and she wanted to test his behavior. Maybe Jean held her back a little too, it doesn't really matter. So, with every step he took, she tested his limits, wondering how much he could take and for what reason. Of course, when he reached her, she wasn't even in the slightest worried about him. She just did not understand his motivation. Hence "You would die for them?", as she mistakenly thought. His answer, unexpectedly, brought Jean to the surface. And from here on, it's all Jean. Here's the redemption peolpe expected from her. With some help, she managed to subdue Phoenix and she fully realized what she'd done and what a danger she would be to everyone. And she knew there was only one way to redeem herself and ensure everyone's safety. So she kills herself. Wolverine doesn't kill her, she kills herself. He's just the tool. He asks him to do it, and she holds the Phoenix back long enough for her to die. If the Phoenix was in control, maybe Logan's claws would not be enough to kill her. But at that moment she's holding everything back, she's a normal person with no powers. So she dies, having finally found peace as the menace of Dark Phoenix is now gone.


That's my take and I find it to fit in the movies' context. You don't have to accept it, but at least try to think of it like this and see if it does it for you. I'd like people to be able to enjoy this film and see past their initial expectations and beyond the inevitable comparisons to the comics. I'd also like to add I'm primarily a Spidey fan and have no real preference over Scott or Logan. I just find much of the criticism towards this film somewhat unjustified.

Sorry for the long post.
 
FNSpidey said:
Sorry for the long post.

Dude, or Dudette, don't be sorry. Its so refreshing to see arbitrary points of view around here. Believe it or not, its a rarity.

And you hit the nail on the head. The main point of the entire trilogy is Wolverine. So what he thinks and feels is what the story is about. Here is an undisputed fact: Logan loves Jean. That's all that matters in the final battle. Wether (sp?) or not the feelings are returned MAKES NO DIFFERENCE! We all know ( even people who don't read the comics) how it was going to end. Logan is no fun if he gets what he wants. Tragic heros are for more marketable than happy endings with protaganists.

And you bring up another excellent point. Even though Wolverine is a relucantant hero, he is a hero nonetheless. He really would have gone komikaze for anyone in that position. Case in point, the final battle of X1.
 
Thanks Goddessreicho, I feared my post would be too long for people to even consider reading it.
But I'd like to clear something. While I agree the studio pushed Wolverine to the foreground, I think he fits in that final scene. I don't find the films to be all about Wolverine, I just find that his powers and relationship with Jean make him suitable to help end Jean's/Phoenix's arc. Plus, I mentioned that it's not really important if Logan loves Jean or not. He would still be suitable for that scene, his feelings just add to the dramatic tension of it.
Maybe if Fox allowed for Cyclops to be in this film, things would play out differently. But as it is, I think the writers and Ratner did an overall good job with what they had, at least in the climax. I don't think we would see Cyclops even if Singer had stayed.


P.S.1: I'm a Dude...
P.S.2: Where's your signature from? Interesting...
 

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