Okay... Who else loved Logan vs. Jean

[bruja_escarlata]

Affection/friendship/unrequited romantic feelings? Sure, I'd give you that. I'd give anyone that, since as I said before Logan just has that much more screentime than Scott, and the entire trilogy was just so heavily biased on him. But when people say that Jean actually loved Logan, I'm sorry, that's just stupid crap. At best, it may have been the start of love, but it couldn't have been actual love. All they showed throughout the entire trilogy was some good chemistry and some attraction, and that's not love by any means - although it is very often erroneously construed as such.

Well, it is a movie....and besides, whatever it was, Jean felt something for him, at least in X2 she does, maybe not LOVE, but attraction and she cares for him....and Logan only shows that kind of romantic feelings for Jean....obviously they do not know each other much...but for a movie, is more than enough....look at other love stories in movies....

 

[PowersOfMind]

So, uh what exactly showed you that Jean was more than in lust with Logan. She had at most five conversations with him. And three of them where of her rejecting him. Yes, yes they made out on a med lab slab, but ah at the end of that was yet another REJECTION.

The end with him stabbing her...it seemed to me like the ultimate NO! She would rather die then make an attempt to control her powers and be with him. Doesn't really sound like the basis of a decent realationship.

It depends on how you look at it.

In X2, when her and Storm were headed for the jet and she met up with Logan in the halls and she has this sort of coy smile on her face. She was happy to see him. I think the relationship was developing but only to an extent cuz JEan would only let it go but so far while she is with Scott.

In the med lab in X3 that was Logan rejecting her, because he wants Jean, not some redhead that looks like Jean but acts nothing like her. And as far as Logan killing Jean, it was more about her having almost no control over her abilities and that she knew if she lived the world would be in danger.

 

[D-scythe]

It depends on how you look at it.

In X2, when her and Storm were headed for the jet and she met up with Logan in the halls and she has this sort of coy smile on her face. She was happy to see him. I think the relationship was developing but only to an extent cuz JEan would only let it go but so far while she is with Scott.

In the med lab in X3 that was Logan rejecting her, because he wants Jean, not some redhead that looks like Jean but acts nothing like her. And as far as Logan killing Jean, it was more about her having almost no control over her abilities and that she knew if she lived the world would be in danger.

So again, what made you think a "smile of affection" and Jean asking Logan to kill her was anything more than lust/attraction and some chemistry? To say their relationship was a romantic, loving one is laughable, and I seriously don't see how one can argue for it just because Jean gave Logan a smile in X2.

 

[PowersOfMind]

For her to even allow him to get close enough to kill her suggests more than just lust/attraction. When you write it off as lust its like "yeah he's cute. I want to have sex with him" and obviously their relationship,despite how small, is deeper than that. It may not be love but it is more than lust. And I said their relationship was developing, not that it was a full on romantic one.

 

[D-scythe]

For her to even allow him to get close enough to kill her suggests more than just lust/attraction. When you write it off as lust its like "yeah he's cute. I want to have sex with him" and obviously their relationship,despite how small, is deeper than that. It may not be love but it is more than lust. And I said their relationship was developing, not that it was a full on romantic one.

What? She didn't "allow" him to get close to her, his healing factor had to keep up. The only reason why Logan wasn't vaporized instantly like all other things was simply because Fox wanted a) to make the scene look cool and b) if they killed off the poster-boy of the trilogy, it would lead to a lot of pi$sed 12 year olds.

 

[PowersOfMind]

She had to "allow" him on some level because the Phoenix could have just as easily made his head explode and I doubt his healing factor would have saved him from that. And if not that then in the X3 novel it says that she amplifies the powers of the mutants around her, so she was speeding up his healing abilities.

 

[D-scythe]

She had to "allow" him on some level because the Phoenix could have just as easily made his head explode and I doubt his healing factor would have saved him from that. And if not that then in the X3 novel it says that she amplifies the powers of the mutants around her, so she was speeding up his healing abilities.

Okay, if you want to believe the whole "Phoenix was gonna kill Logan but on some level Jean was holding Phoenix back so that Logan would not die but not entirely so Logan still has to use his healing factor which was amplified due to Jean's powers" argument, that's fine with me. Personally, I think that you're looking into this way too much, trying to find depth in a movie that had none.

And didn't you know? Logan can't die. The Hulk can play volleyball with a 70 ton Abrams tank, but he couldn't squish Logan, because that's another of his mutant powers. His over-ratedness.

 

[PowersOfMind]

Nevermind, because if you are going to act like that about it then its pointless.

 

[D-scythe]

Nevermind, because if you are going to act like that about it then its pointless.

Act like what? I just stated my opinions and some facts. Your whole argument about the Phoenix holding back IS overly complicated (opinion), and there's NO way Fox is gonna kill off Logan (fact), who WAS centre-stage, over-exposed and over-rated, for the entire X-trilogy (fact).

 

[PowersOfMind]

Your opinions are not the issue. You dont believe that the Jean/Logan relationship really extended beyond lust/attraction. That's you opinion. Fine. But when you start on the whole "Logan is overratted" and "Fox is never gonna kill him", your going down the petulant child route.

 

[D-scythe]

Your opinions are not the issue. You dont believe that the Jean/Logan relationship really extended beyond lust/attraction. That's you opinion. Fine. But when you start on the whole "Logan is overratted" and "Fox is never gonna kill him", your going down the petulant child route.

Firstly, while I don't think Logan/Jean's relationship extended beyond lust/attraction, I acknowledged multiple times already that it may have developed into something more, given the right circumstances and with time, neither of which was present in the X-trilogy.

Secondly, I was simply countering your, IMO, overly complicated explanation of Jean's death scene, by a more simple one that I think is also more true. Logan has to kill Jean, because Logan is centre-stage - he's the face of the Fox X-men movie franchise. However, Jean can't kill him instantly, because Fox still needs Logan for his spin-off. As such, to counter Jean's powers, they over-rate Logan's healing ability to make the story somewhat believable - plus it looks cool. For an action packed, multi-million dollar summer blockbuster, I think that my explanation for the scene is closer to the truth.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

man...this thread makes me sad.

-curses under his breath-

but makes me laugh...haha...ha...

 

[bruja_escarlata]

yep

 

[undomiel]

So Scott didnt love jean intensely....hmmm, i guess there must be another reason why scott turned into a complete mess when she died in X2, while logan was just the same old logan.

Undo, you havent read the comics...so you dont know the appeal of the jean/scott romance. why the majority of x fans here prefer it over logan/jean. Comic fans know the intense love the two feel for each other, and how with logan theres only lust.

And its that way in the movies too. Sorry, but when the writers, and wolverine himself state that Jean dosent love logan on that level, i'm inclined to believe them.

Oh, yes Bat -- I agree, there must be another reason why Scott fell apart when Jean died in X2 -- it demonstrates his weakness. Logan is much stronger than Scott. He's obviously been through a lot more in life and can handle devastating events better than Scott. Logan deals with his pain the way he deals with everything in life: aggressively. If the pain is getting in the way or slowing him down, he cuts it off and casts it away -- I don't think he could have survived to this point if he hadn't learned to deal with pain that way. Again, it's part of what makes him interesting. It doesn't seem like many of you really understand Logan, and maybe that's part of why you don't appreciate him.

And you're right, Bat -- I don't read comic books. I've stated this before. In an attempt to be fair-minded and balanced, I have conceded that point. However, this thread is about the movies. In fact, I've refrained from saying it, but some of you always insist upon dragging the comic books into it, even though the movies are clearly telling a different story. The movies are an adaptation, and need not be expected to be exactly like the comics.

I actually find it a little laughable when you say "with Logan there's only lust". Bat, the entire second half of the movie Logan is going out of his mind, chasing Jean down in the forest, insisting she can be redeemed when everyone else has given up on her, and finally, wailing with agony as he's forced to destroy her, sobbing "I love you" as she's dying in his arms. He'd do anything for her. And if the writers did actually claim that Logan "doesn't love Jean on that level", I'd have to laugh and say it appears they don't even understand what they're writing, because that's exactly the story they gave us -- one of epic, tragic love. As I've said before, in order for X3 to work as a story, Logan must love Jean. Does a guy who only casually lusts after a woman risk his life for her? Does he pursue her to the bitter end? Does he sob as she's dying in his arms? Hardly!!! C'mon -- it's ridiculous to say that Logan doesn't love Jean. However far away from the comic book story this may be, I don't care -- after all, we're talking about X3, the movie.

 

[undomiel]

So again, what made you think a "smile of affection" and Jean asking Logan to kill her was anything more than lust/attraction and some chemistry? To say their relationship was a romantic, loving one is laughable, and I seriously don't see how one can argue for it just because Jean gave Logan a smile in X2.

No, no -- I completely agree with PowersofMind! It's actually more than just a smile of affection when Logan returns. She chides him about "running off", and does the same thing later right before he kisses her. ("The good guy sticks around...") It's a great point to illustrate that Jean does have deeper feelings for Logan, because it shows she's exasperated with him for his disappearances. And why would a young, engaged woman be troubled by the sudden leavings of a particular man? Why does this bother her so much? It would only bother her if she wanted that man to be around, to be near her constantly! It's one of the things that first convinced me that Jean is indeed romantically attracted to Logan. It fits right in with what I've also believed about Jean being afraid of Logan -- she's strongly attracted to him, but suppresses it partly because she's afraid he'll abandon her. (Which I personally do not believe he would, but that's a topic for another post.)

 

[Mike059jig]

It seems like the Lab scene with jean and logan made everybody blow the things in X1 and X2 way out of proprotion...since the movies did a good job of throwing logan/jean in your face thats basically where all the strong points come from

 

[The Batman]

Dont put words in my mouth.

i never said logan didnt love jean. I said Jean didnt love logan. Big difference.

Is your argument so weak that you have to twist my words around to prove your point?

 

[Goddessreicho]

Yup. I mean if the love is so strong why is Logan the first to get over Jean, not once but TWICE! That hallway scene was all about how Logan was ready to move on.

At the end he seemed at peace, and once again READY TO MOVE ON. Did he love her, yes. But it wasn't like it was all life had to offer.

Geeze how many times do the actors, director, producer and writes have to say that it was one sided. For Jean it was lust, mebe even passion, but love it was NOT. Heck, even Famke said on Letterman. "Jean has a bit of a wondering eye. She wants to let loose once in a while. Wolverine is just the man."

 

[undomiel]

Dont put words in my mouth.

i never said logan didnt love jean. I said Jean didnt love logan. Big difference.

Is your argument so weak that you have to twist my words around to prove your point?

Goodness, gracious -- could you lighten up a little? I made a mistake! I do apologize. I'm a little tired, and my eyes just read it wrong. Yes, I see what you were saying -- that Jean didn't love Logan on that level. I'll grant you that -- her feelings for him were not as developed as his for her, but I still absolutely believe they could have got to that point with enough time and interaction. And I do think Jean had feelings of affection, fondness, romantic interest in Logan. I believe she was definitely capable of falling in love with him, even in spite of Scott, because this is the movies and not the comics. And let's remember, whatever she felt for Logan, it's not like she could have broadcast it all over the world, so it's natural that her interest should have appeared muted. The point is, we don't really know what was going on in Jean's head, so it's subject to interpretation.

Also, if Jean truly had absolutely no interest in Logan whatsoever, the story would lose much of its potency. The bond between the two of them must be felt in order for the climax to work. I think that's why so many people are having problems with the ending -- they're in denial of that bond because they don't want it to be there, but it is.

 

[bruja_escarlata]

It seems like the Lab scene with jean and logan made everybody blow the things in X1 and X2 way out of proprotion...since the movies did a good job of throwing logan/jean in your face thats basically where all the strong points come from

The lab scene rules....is just logical it blow things way out of proportion

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

thats my fave scene... -sighs-

 

[undomiel]

Yup. I mean if the love is so strong why is Logan the first to get over Jean, not once but TWICE! That hallway scene was all about how Logan was ready to move on.

At the end he seemed at peace, and once again READY TO MOVE ON. Did he love her, yes. But it wasn't like it was all life had to offer.

See my post above.

Geeze how many times do the actors, director, producer and writes have to say that it was one sided. For Jean it was lust, mebe even passion, but love it was NOT. Heck, even Famke said on Letterman. "Jean has a bit of a wondering eye. She wants to let loose once in a while. Wolverine is just the man."

You know, this is exactly what makes the whole Scott/Jean "immortal love" story so unbelievable. If she really loved him so grandly, so eternally, why in the world does she have a wandering eye? Why in the world is she entertaining thoughts of sleeping with another guy?! How would you all feel if we said Scott was kind of thinking about sleeping with Storm -- but, he's really, totally, completely in love with Jean, mind you! Ridiculous, and you all know it.

 

[Mike059jig]

only thing good in the lab scene was "where's scott" everything before was unneccessary

 

[Goddessreicho]

Um, it wasn't Jean who wanted to sleep with him. It was personality number two, Phoenix.

Plain ole Jean never once made a move on Logan in X3. In X2, sure she may have entertained the thought, but did she act on it. NOPE.

Who does she marry, Scott. Who does she shift reality for, Scott. Who shows Jean what love is really about, Scott. Who does the Xavier shove in her face when she's about to lose control, Scott. "Look (holds up glasses), you killed the man you LOVE!"

Any time someone mentions Scott to her, she realizes what she has done. Because she killed the man she LOVED!

 

[bruja_escarlata]

only thing good in the lab scene was "where's scott" everything before was unneccessary

Well, maybe it was unnecessary, but it was still fun...(IMO)