Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Zarex]

And this is exactly the kind of crap she would have to put up with; no matter how professional or qualified she is, everyone sees her immature brother as a better fit for being an astronaut just because he's good with tools.

"Good with tools" is an important skill when flying around across galaxies in a life supporting mechanical travel conveyance. And I would prefer Susan be viewed as a vital member of the team rather than someone forced to put up with "crap".

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

She sounds lovely! But not particularly useful on an extended mission across multiple dimensions.

On the other hand, her gear head brother seems like he'd be super helpful.

Eh...

Invisibility and telekinetic force field manipulation is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, that's after the event that gives her powers but that's just it. There are many ways you could get Sue and Johhny involved without making either professionals working with Reed. Could there be contrivance involved? Yeah. But there are contrivances involved with lots of superhero origins both in comics and in the films based on them. Hell, the entirety of AEG'S plot hinges on a rat scampering across a van's dashboard.

Also, for both Johnny and Sue I think thought needs to be given about how they fit into things when the team is NOT out on missions/adventures, and how that ties into the story or dynamics. As stated before, a big issue with the general way Evans' was portrayed is that they had him as this thick headed ultra dude bro... Who was also an astronaut. The characteristics we associate with Johnny just don't jibe with that nor with the ignorant and capricious way he was written in those films.

I feel similar to Sue who is given this mostly in name only scientific background. I can see that being tried again with probably the same result because that angle is already covered by virtue of Reed's immense intellect. Which is in my view worse than having Sue not be a scientist or professional with expertise if she doesn't get to use or show said skill. Even making her a medical doctor can be besides the point if we assume Reed is the genius he should be from the comics.

As stated before, I think Reed and Ben are doing something related to manned space travel for the masses. Reed is the designer, Ben the pilot. So confident is Reed in his work and in Ben's skills that he invites his fiancee and her TEEN brother along on the public unveiling of this vessel. Perhaps that's all cover for working for SHIELD/SWORD, or maybe Fury is interested in Reed or his work. In any case they go up and there is a catostrophic failure due to sabotage. The guidance and radiation shielding fails. Luckily Reed put failsafes not in the plans aboard the ship which saves their lives. Yadda-yadda we all know the rest. Reed has an arc dealing with his hubris and guilt which dovetails with trying to find out what caused the accident only to ultimately discover it was unconnected to SHIELD/SWORD and was an assassination attempt by Victor Von Doom.

 

[Crimz]

I think the high society thing doesn't suit Sue considering her background. She doesn't become influential until after being a hero. Part of the celebrity aspect to the FF is that they became famous as a result of being a superhero team. It's one the things that was thrust on them. Plus I also want the characterization from Waid's run to be translated to film. With Reed pursuing the fame as a way to try and make up for what he did to them and so that they wouldn't be feared.
Having them be famous before they become heroes takes that away.

Also, Sue being completely unqualified and only there because she was dating Reed was one of the mistakes from the original run imo. It was a product of the time that does not and should not be translated to film. Even if they make the film a period piece Sue will be more than that as they would not have their female hero be only included because she's dating Reed.
What career/role they give her remains to be seen, but Marvel will definitely give her one.

 

[Zarex]

I don't want Sue and Johnny getting seats on the doomed mission because they were A) f**king Reed and B) the brother of the person f**king Reed.

Johnny's already established in the comics as being a whiz with mechanical thingamabogs, so he's got a role. One way around his youth is to have him be a last minute replacement. The original on board mechanic came down with an illness (Because of Doom? THIS IS QUITE LIKELY!) and Johnny was a last minute replacement. Give Sue something to do and we're good to go.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think the high society thing doesn't suit Sue considering her background. She doesn't become influential until after being a hero. Part of the celebrity aspect to the FF is that they became famous as a result of being a superhero team. It's one the things that was thrust on them. Plus I also want the characterization from Waid's run to be translated to film. With Reed pursuing the fame as a way to try and make up for what he did to them and so that they wouldn't be feared.
Having them be famous before they become heroes takes that away.

Also, Sue being completely unqualified and only there because she was dating Reed was one of the mistakes from the original run imo. It was a product of the time that does not and should not be translated to film. Even if they make the film a period piece Sue will be more than that as they would not have their female hero be only included because she's dating Reed.
What career/role they give her remains to be seen, but Marvel will definitely give her one.

Actually, I'd like Sue to be unqualified. It would add to her everywoman status as someone thrust into this situation without asking for it. And if she became the leader of the team out of everyone else, that would make it even more ironic. Maybe she is the most people friendly. If she were already a mini celebrity before, that could give Reed his idea to make the rest of the team celebrities because he sees how the rest of the world respond to Sue gaining powers, and that it's a positive reaction.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Invisibility and telekinetic force field manipulation is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, that's after the event that gives her powers but that's just it.

This is a very important point that seems to be getting lost in this discussion. The FF isn't a well-oiled machine of elite professionals who came together to form a team based on the various skills each brought to the team.

They're an odd, diverse group of people who happened to gain powers and become bonded in a weird fluke of fate.

They didn't start as a team, they became a team. Even if this film starts with them post-powers, I'd like to see the team develop. Just like a character has an arc, the group should have an arc.

A lot of people seem to want a highly professional group of people who mesh perfectly from the start.

Not only does that sound completely boring to me, but it's not who the FF are.

 

[Zarex]

Actually, I'd like Sue to be unqualified. It would add to her everywoman status as someone thrust into this situation without asking for it. And if she became the leader of the team out of everyone else, that would make it even more ironic. Maybe she is the most people friendly. If she were already a mini celebrity before, that could give Reed his idea to make the rest of the team celebrities because he sees how the rest of the world respond to Sue gaining powers, and that it's a positive reaction.

She could be a whiz in the kitchen. The boys are going to need a hot, nutritious meal after a long day adventuring.

 

[Dark Raven]

She could be a whiz in the kitchen. The boys are going to need a hot, nutritious meal after a long day adventuring.

She could be a journalist or publicist. Even in science companies, people have different roles and not everyone is a scientist.

 

[Crimz]

Actually, I'd like Sue to be unqualified. It would add to her everywoman status as someone thrust into this situation without asking for it. And if she became the leader of the team out of everyone else, that would make it even more ironic. Maybe she is the most people friendly. If she were already a mini celebrity before, that could give Reed his idea to make the rest of the team celebrities because he sees how the rest of the world respond to Sue gaining powers, and that it's a positive reaction.

Being qualified wouldn't make her any less of an "everywoman". It's making her a genius scientist that takes it too far. There are many other options that keeps her relatable, while having her be qualified. Like being a doctor. That relies on hard work and effort, not genius intellect. Plus it's a career we see everyday. She'd be a hard-working woman and that seems like a great everywoman and role model to me.

This is a very important point that seems to be getting lost in this discussion. The FF isn't a well-oiled machine of elite professionals who came together to form a team based on the various skills each brought to the team.

They're an odd, diverse group of people who happened to gain powers and become bonded in a weird fluke of fate.

They didn't start as a team, they became a team. Even if this film starts with them post-powers, I'd like to see the team develop. Just like a character has an arc, the group should have an arc.

A lot of people seem to want a highly professional group of people who mesh perfectly from the start.

Not only does that sound completely boring to me, but it's not who the FF are.

Just because they's have a role on the mission, doesn't mean they'd be this well-oiled machine from the start. You can even see the problems crop up in their teamwork during the first mission.
They'd still be diverse in personalities and abilities. Their diversity would be the reason why they are on the mission in the first place.

 

[Crimz]

She could be a journalist or publicist. Even in science companies, people have different roles and not everyone is a scientist.

I'm personally not a fan of that as it's pretty cliche to give to wives and girlfriends of superheroes.
Lois Lane, Iris West, Mary Jane in the Spider-Man video game.
It's the go-to career they give to the male heroes girlfriend.

Plus it would be like the Tim Story films where it won't come up again after the first film. It's use is too situational for what the FF does. They'd have to engineer a way for it to be important or just ignore it.

 

[Web-Head]

I think making Sue a journalist or publicist works really well, actually. All of this talk about the 4 make me giddy to see them in the MCU.

 

[DawnWarrior]

I'm more a fan of Sue being a scientist and entrepreneur in her own right. Also since Janet Van Dyne is now an elder stateswoman of the MCU community, I wouldn't mind taking comic-Jan's fashion maven deal and giving it to Sue instead.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I don't want Sue and Johnny getting seats on the doomed mission because they were A) f**king Reed and B) the brother of the person f**king Reed.

Johnny's already established in the comics as being a whiz with mechanical thingamabogs, so he's got a role. One way around his youth is to have him be a last minute replacement. The original on board mechanic came down with an illness (Because of Doom? THIS IS QUITE LIKELY!) and Johnny was a last minute replacement. Give Sue something to do and we're good to go.

See... I think the unquantifiable aspect of as has been mentioned, fate is what's taken away from the whole "everyone has to be justified in a totally logical manner" approach.

As stated, this makes them a cohesive and indeed professional team before getting powers. One again... Replacement crew member or not... How smart and together is Johnny supposed to be at, what, over 24 if he is in some organization and qualified to go on a "mission"... But he's still reflective of the Johnny we want? How much of a scientific whiz kid is this in his 20's guy supposed to be? He'd have to be a GENIUS. Even to be a back up. Maybe ESPECIALLY if he's a back up. As you conceptualize Johhny Storm, the Human Torch of the Fantastic Four... Could you ever seriously see him as say a character in APOLLO 13? Either in the capsule hurtling towards the moon or at mission control? And if he was and acted ala Evans' Johnny... I would have serious questions about the screening process at NASA.

Fate, not mission requirements brought these four highly individualistic personalities together in a, dare I say, fantastic way. It has always been a contrivance that even the comics have had shots at attempting to explain away with varying degrees of success. (If we want to apply reality to the whole thing, how does a genius so devastatingly underestimate the requirements of radiation shielding in terms of space travel? )

Sue and Johnny in my opinon can be worked into things with far less need to tinker with their backgrounds than others think is my stance. How they got on board the ship is of less importance than in showing the audience how it changed them and what they do with their powers after. And there are issues, like Johnny's classic personality or the dynamic between Reed and Sue which make less sense if you make either people who by the necessity of being in some kind of official government program of some kind highly educated professionals.

If Johnny is a legit kid he has more of an excuse and reason to be an impulsive, even unthinkingly reactionary and often ignorant hot head. Because that's what teenagers often are, but which is the polar opposite of anyone that's being looked at for any official space exploration project.

Sue is in fact more amazing post the cosmic ray bombardment because she wasn't already a highly educated medical doctor that also happens to qualify for space flight. She can be amazing because she's out of her depth but manages to still be a strong voice in the FF and in fact it's most powerful member.

 

[Crimz]

Making Sue qualified takes nothing away from the character and fixes one of the problems with the original run.
No way is Marvel going to make the only female member of the team unqualified to be on the mission. It also doesn't automatically make them a well-oiled team. Giving them her a role doesn't magically make the team fully-formed in terms of dynamics and teamwork. Experience working together is the only thing that does that which is something that occurs after the accident.

Sue will be changed. It's not a matter of if she will, but wondering what that inevitable change will be.

Johnny is the biggest outlier here as I have no clue what direction they will take with him. The age of the actor they choose will be the biggest clue to what they may do with him.

 

[Zarex]

See... I think the unquantifiable aspect of as has been mentioned, fate is what's taken away from the whole "everyone has to be justified in a totally logical manner" approach.

As stated, this makes them a cohesive and indeed professional team before getting powers. One again... Replacement crew member or not... How smart and together is Johnny supposed to be at, what, over 24 if he is in some organization and qualified to go on a "mission"... But he's still reflective of the Johnny we want? How much of a scientific whiz kid is this in his 20's guy supposed to be? He'd have to be a GENIUS. Even to be a back up. Maybe ESPECIALLY if he's a back up. As you conceptualize Johhny Storm, the Human Torch of the Fantastic Four... Could you ever seriously see him as say a character in APOLLO 13? Either in the capsule hurtling towards the moon or at mission control? And if he was and acted ala Evans' Johnny... I would have serious questions about the screening process at NASA.

Fate, not mission requirements brought these four highly individualistic personalities together in a, dare I say, fantastic way. It has always been a contrivance that even the comics have had shots at attempting to explain away with varying degrees of success. (If we want to apply reality to the whole thing, how does a genius so devastatingly underestimate the requirements of radiation shielding in terms of space travel? )

Sue and Johnny in my opinon can be worked into things with far less need to tinker with their backgrounds than others think is my stance. How they got on board the ship is of less importance than in showing the audience how it changed them and what they do with their powers after. And there are issues, like Johnny's classic personality or the dynamic between Reed and Sue which make less sense if you make either people who by the necessity of being in some kind of official government program of some kind highly educated professionals.

If Johnny is a legit kid he has more of an excuse and reason to be an impulsive, even unthinkingly reactionary and often ignorant hot head. Because that's what teenagers often are, but which is the polar opposite of anyone that's being looked at for any official space exploration project.

Sue is in fact more amazing post the cosmic ray bombardment because she wasn't already a highly educated medical doctor that also happens to qualify for space flight. She can be amazing because she's out of her depth but manages to still be a strong voice in the FF and in fact it's most powerful member.

I'm not thinking of the mission - which I only want to see in flashbacks in the MCU reboot - as one with a crew entirely made up of The Right Stuff. I'm thinking of an scientific expedition funded by private concerns or a test flight of an experimental craft. Perhaps filmed for a reality TV show that requires interpersonal drama to entice eyeballs.

And I'm not saying they've all got to be Reed level geniuses. Just folks that can play a necessary role in an extended multi-dimensional trip. Science Guy Reed, Pilot/Security Chief Ben, Mechanic Johnny and Dr. Sue all fit the bill.

 

[Zarex]

Johnny is the biggest outlier here as I have no clue what direction they will take with him. The age of the actor they choose will be the biggest clue to what they may do with him.

I'm thinking of Johnny as a young, self educated gear head who can fix almost anything but isn't one to read a manual or do things in a traditional fashion. I could see his cavalier approach a source of frustration for Reed

 

[Crimz]

I hope HERBIE is created early in the first film and is a part of the cast. He'd take the brunt of the comedic relief so that Ben and Johnny can be more than that. Plus he'd be very marketable.

His design is basically a mixture of Wall-E and BB-8. They'd be raking in the dollars if they do it right. They should get a comedic actor who's got really unique and endearing voice. The worst thing in the world would be having him annoying to the audience, he should only be annoying to Johnny and maybe Ben.

 

[Detective Conan]

Didn’t someone here unironcially suggest Justin Bieber for Johnny?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'm not thinking of the mission - which I only want to see in flashbacks in the MCU reboot - as one with a crew entirely made up of The Right Stuff. I'm thinking of an scientific expedition funded by private concerns or a test flight of an experimental craft. Perhaps filmed for a reality TV show that requires interpersonal drama to entice eyeballs.

And I'm not saying they've all got to be Reed level geniuses. Just folks that can play a necessary role in an extended multi-dimensional trip. Science Guy Reed, Pilot/Security Chief Ben, Mechanic Johnny and Dr. Sue all fit the bill.

I like the reality TV angle, though I would worry an MCU take on that would descend mostly into jokes. And I prefer a version where Fury's one eyed bald bastah ass is nowhere to be seen and the four are not connected directly to any government agency too, but... I think the FFH post cred puts that in doubt.


What's ironic is a seperate from the government take is my idea as well and I think that's how you can justify Sue and a young teen Johnny there without them having some kind of scientific/medical background. Have a ficticious version of The X Prize. Reed has entered it with his own design. It could even be a race to make for a thrilling action scene. Perhaps it's a design competition that catches SHIELD or Stark Industries eye. Reed is behind it to expand human society's horizons in space fligh, which he feels need to be more practical and more open to the rest of the populace. Thus... He brings Sue and Johnny along. His confidence is that high and he hopes it does for them what he wants it to do for humanity as a whole... Open them up to see the wonders of the universe as he sees them. Make people see themselves beyind the confines of their everyday lives. It's both about something practical but also poetry for the soul. That's what would make the way it all goes down that much more of a gut punch to Reed. It's a double whammy both on an intellectual and emotional level.

If Sue and Johnny get caught in this mess due to being specialists that signed up for it like Ben... Eh, less resonance for me. Less sense that for a time Reed thinks his hubris almost got those closest to him killed, along with my other concerns about how this affects the character dynamics, Johnny's character etc. that I already posted.

But it's interesting how we start at a very similar beginning point but end up with differing opinions as to the whys. Such is the world of super hero fan opinions.

 

[Silvermoth]

I just hope they don’t make Susan into a spy like in her current solo. That’s so obvious and it just doesn’t seem to work at all at the same time.

I thought Valkyrie was interesting, just as one quick example.

Good writing is good writing. I refuse to believe only one gender or the other can do it. That would be a sexist opinion.

"Only women can write compelling female characters."
"Only men can do math."

Both of those statements are sexist.

Hardly. It’s not like saying women in a writing team are more likely to give women characters nuance than an all male writing team is likely to lead to the societal problems actual sexism has led to (domestic violence, inequal pay and opportunity for all genders etc). Either way, no writing team should be just blokes because no job should be just blokes. I am sure everyone here does not work in male only environments and if they do that may be something that needs looking into. Having different perspectives on a script is a good thing!

 

[metaphysician]

Ehhh. . . to whatever extent it might be a retcon? It is now a rather important part of the theme of the FF that, *even if they never got powers*? They still would have been heroes or potential heroes, of the Challengers of the Unknown model. This should apply just as much to Sue as to everyone else. Even if she lacked specific prior training, she should still be the kind of person with intelligence, diligence, and willpower would have been capable of keeping up meaningfully with the strange situations and adventures.

Also, for a long term space mission, you *absolutely* need "good with people" just as much as you need another person whose "good with tools", probably more. "Good with people" is what ensures that the crew don't lose it under what is simultaneously a high stress and extremely alien environment to the human experience.

 

[Jordacar]

Sue will be changed. It's not a matter of if she will, but wondering what that inevitable change will be.

 

[Detective Conan]

With the recent Gemma Chan/Eternals news proving Marvel doesn’t care if they cast the same actor in two totally different roles Robert Kazinsky is one of my top choices for Ben Grimm. It doesn’t matter if he was already in Captain Marvel, especially since he was only in one very brief scene that was deleted from the final cut of the film.

 

[Silvermoth]

In a way talking about Sue is another win for the ‘set it in the ‘60s’ column because if you do that you can model sue on second wave feminists like Gloria Steinem etc.

I mean you can do that now of course but it would have greater impact then as well as extra flair

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

How much personal back story do the four need for an MCU film? Should they bother to get into childhood in any fashion? Upbringing? It has been done to varying degrees in the MCU but should this film do it too? Or is doing that for four characters overload things?