Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Dark Raven]

How would people feel about casting other ethnicities as historical white figures in movies?

Eg a black JFK or Elvis, an Indian George Washington, an Asian Marilyn Monroe etc?

Is there anything about them that is inherently white? Maybe future films will even do this.

 

[Kuwolski]

How would people feel about casting other ethnicities as historical white figures in movies?

Eg a black JFK or Elvis, an Indian George Washington, an Asian Marilyn Monroe etc?

Is there anything about them that is inherently white? Maybe future films will even do this.

My man.

 

[HBarnill]

How would people feel about casting other ethnicities as historical white figures in movies?

Eg a black JFK or Elvis, an Indian George Washington, an Asian Marilyn Monroe etc?

Is there anything about them that is inherently white? Maybe future films will even do this.

You’ve heard of Hamilton?

 

[Crimz]

But some characters are too iconic to change. Even in the case of X-Men, I don't want Scott, Jean or Logan to change. Characters like Peter Parker, Reed Richards or Wolverine are too popular to swap. There is a line that needs to be drawn with who can and can't get swapped imo

Hate to break it to you, but the FF aren't that popular. It wouldn't matter at all if they changed Reed's race for the films.

The goodwill Marvel has earned will beat any dissension against the change. No one would care.

 

[Xeno]

You’ve heard of Hamilton?

[YT]639vfDnhOVw[/YT]

 

[HBarnill]

Hate to break it to you, but the FF aren't that popular. It wouldn't matter at all if they changed Reed's race for the films.

The goodwill Marvel has earned will beat any dissension against the change. No one would care.

And there’s a good reason why they’re not popular. Unlike the other characters, they’ve yet to have a single piece of media that is representative of them. Their films are an embarrassment, their cartoons are forgettable, they’re not even in much video games. They maybe the reason Marvel escaped being shut down and they introduced Black Panther, but the general public couldn’t give more of a damn, and I’m saying this as a huge fan of the team. I mean, Deadpool was more of a B-lister compared to the F4 back in the day. After the movie, he’s freakin’ everywhere, as if he’s been around for decades.

 

[Silvermoth]

What do you think about supporting cast members? Doesn’t just have to be for the first movie.

Here’s mine...

Wyatt Wingfoot - Martin sensemeier


Alyssa Moy - Sandra Oh


Roberta (robot receptionist at the Baxter building) Tracee Ellis Ross

(I really want to see this visual)


Herbie (voice) - Chris O’dowd

 

[Random490]

Wolverine would work just as well if he was a Mexican luchador.
In fact, it makes too much sense.

...This is the greatest idea I have ever seen on this board.

 

[Marvel united]

Hate to break it to you, but the FF aren't that popular. It wouldn't matter at all if they changed Reed's race for the films.

The goodwill Marvel has earned will beat any dissension against the change. No one would care.

And yet there was a massive outcry when MBJ was cast as Johnny. I'd argue that Reed is a bigger, more iconic character than Johnny. You are massively underestimating the popularity of the F4. People WILL care if these characters suddenly change races.

 

[Marvel united]

What do you think about supporting cast members? Doesn’t just have to be for the first movie.

Here’s mine...

Wyatt Wingfoot - Martin sensemeier


Alyssa Moy - Sandra Oh


Roberta (robot receptionist at the Baxter building) Tracee Ellis Ross

(I really want to see this visual)


Herbie (voice) - Chris O’dowd

This I can get behind.

 

[Crimz]

And yet there was a massive outcry when MBJ was cast as Johnny. I'd argue that Reed is a bigger, more iconic character than Johnny. You are massively underestimating the popularity of the F4. People WILL care if these characters suddenly change races.

Let's just say that most of the outcry wasn't from fans... Plus Marvel has more than enough goodwill for most not to care.

I'd say you are vastly overestimating his popularity. The sad truth is that the Fantastic Four aren't very popular thanks to the films and other poor media portrayals. That's the reason why many of us are so happy Disney is getting the team back. Even the Guardians of the Galaxy are more popular than the FF right now and even most comic fans didn't even know who they were before their film. There is no problem with changing Reed's race, there is only the benefit of expanding your possible audience as people like being represented.

 

[Marvel united]

Let's just say that most of the outcry wasn't from fans... Plus Marvel has more than enough goodwill for most top not care.

Yes it was. There was a huge outcry, to the point where half of the reviews for FFINO were mentioning Johnny's race and his relationship w Sue. Don't forget the interviewers and press harassing Jordan and Mara over it.

Sure about that? Because when the MJ reveal leaked out, there was a huge backlash from fans. To the point where Stan Lee and James Gunn had to defend Zendaya and the cast and crew had to lie all the way until the release of the film about her being "MJ". There was also the backlash on the Ancient One when Tilda was cast and Tony Revolori's Flash but none of them compare to the MJ backlash.

I'd say you are vastly overestimating his popularity. The sad truth is that the Fantastic Four aren't very popular thanks to the films and other poor media portrayals.

Being popular - Being ingrained within public consciousness. People know who the F4 are, they know what they look like and they know their power-set. Show anyone a causal image of the F4 and they'll know who they are.

That's the reason why many of us are so happy Disney is getting the team back. Even the Guardians of the Galaxy are more popular than the FF right now and even most comic fans didn't even know who they were before their film. There is no problem with changing Reed's race, there is only the benefit of expanding your possible audience as people like being represented.

The Guardians may be more popular but they aren't more iconic than the F4. I'm pretty sure people knew who the F4 were before their film. Back in the 90s, if you knew Marvel then you knew the F4, it was as simple as that. They along with Spider-Man and X-Men were the FACES of Marvel for decades.

 

[Detective Conan]

Yes it was. There was a huge outcry, to the point where half of the reviews for FFINO were mentioning Johnny's race and his relationship w Sue. Don't forget the interviewers and press harassing Jordan and Mara over it.

Really? As someone who read a lot of the reviews for that movie when it came out very rarely did reviewers mention the ethnicity of Johnny Storm, and even if they did, it wasn't as a knock exactly. There was plenty the movie had going against it but casting a black Human Torch wasn't one of them.

Sure about that? Because when the MJ reveal leaked out, there was a huge backlash from fans. To the point where Stan Lee and James Gunn had to defend Zendaya and the cast and crew had to lie all the way until the release of the film about her being "MJ". There was also the backlash on the Ancient One when Tilda was cast and Tony Revolori's Flash but none of them compare to the MJ backlash.

The backlash at best was mostly limited to online, really. There was no mainstream audience backlash at all. You're overstating.

Being popular - Being ingrained within public consciousness. People know who the F4 are, they know what they look like and they know their power-set. Show anyone a causal image of the F4 and they'll know who they are.

Wrong. Being more iconic does not equal being more popular. Superman is more iconic than Spider-Man but that doesn't mean he's more popular. As for your point about anybody can easily recognize the FF --the FF are losing that. This is anecdotal but just recently I played a game called "Guess that Superhero' with a couple of very young children who love the MCU using this.

And guess what: When I asked them to guess who any of the FF are characters are none of them could answer. They didn't know who they were. and they correctly named almost every other superhero on this. That's quite telling.

The Guardians may be more popular but they aren't more iconic than the F4. I'm pretty sure people knew who the F4 were before their film. Back in the 90s, if you knew Marvel then you knew the F4, it was as simple as that. They along with Spider-Man and X-Men were the FACES of Marvel for decades.

It's a shame that being more recognized doesn't always equal to being more liked or preferred by the audience as a whole. FF being more well-known doesn't equate to them being more well-liked by the mainstream as a whole. Which is exactly what Crimz is getting at. If anything, thanks to those horrible films & lack of good media portrayals the FF brand is severely tarnished enough that I don't think most people who don't read comics or visit forums would care at all about a race-swap.

Look, I would like the FF to be cast as racially accurate as much as the next guy but the fact of the matter is I think Marvel shouldn't feel beholden to cast that way if they felt a person of color better personified that character than most white actors could. So what I'm getting at is that race-swapping won't effect the MCU Fantastic in either a negative or good way. . What will effect it will be how good the film is, not the actors skin color who's cast.

 

[Crimz]

Really? As someone who read a lot of the reviews for that movie when it came out very rarely did reviewers mention the ethnicity of Johnny Storm, and even if they did, it wasn't as a knock exactly. There was plenty the movie going against it but casting a black Human Torch wasn't one of them.

The backlash at best was mostly limited to online, really. There was no mainstream audience backlash at all. You're overstating.

Wrong. Being more iconic does not equal being more popular. Superman is more iconic than Spider-Man but that doesn't mean he's more popular. As for your point about anybody can easily recognize the FF --the FF are losing that. This is anecdotal but just recently I played a game called "Guess that Superhero' with a couple of very young children who love the MCU using this.

And guess what: When I asked them to guess who any of the FF are characters are none of them could answer. They didn't know who they were. and they correctly named almost every other superhero on this. That's quite telling.
It's a shame that being more recognized doesn't always equal to being more liked or preferred by the audience as a whole. FF being more well-known doesn't equate to them being more well-liked by the mainstream as a whole. Which is exactly what Crimz is getting at. If anything, thanks to those horrible films & lack of good media portrayals the FF brand is severely tarnished enough that I don't think most people who don't read comics or visit forums would care at all about a race-swap.

Look, I would like the FF to be cast as racially accurate as much as the next guy but the fact of the matter is I think Marvel shouldn't feel beholden to cast that way if they felt a person of color better personified that character than most white actors could. So what I'm getting at is that race-swapping won't effect the MCU Fantastic in either a negative or good way. . What will effect it will be how good the film is, not the actors skin color who's cast.

This is pretty much what I'm getting at. There is no problem with them going comic-accurate an getting a white guy to play Reed, and there is no problem if they want to change that. It would have zero impact on the story or the personality of the characters and that's what matters the most, that's where the Fox films went wrong. While the 05 cast and most of the 15 cast looked like their comic counterparts, they acted nothing like them. That's the thing that is truly necessary for the characters, not their race.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

This is pretty much what I'm getting at. There is no problem with them going comic-accurate an getting a white guy to play Reed, and there is no problem if they want to change that. It would have zero impact on the story or the personality of the characters and that's what matters the most, that's where the Fox films went wrong. While the 05 cast and most of the 15 cast looked like their comic counterparts, they acted nothing like them. That's the thing that is truly necessary for the characters, not their race.

What really annoyed me was that we hated the Fant4stic cast because it was a terrible cast, but all the journalists writing it about fixated on MBJ and the race issue - when he was actually the best casting of the bunch.

And Fox played that up too, implying our dislike of everything we were hearing was because we were a bunch of racist jerks - not because they were making a lousy movie.

 

[The Guard]

A terrible cast, or miscast compared to the comics?

Because every one of those actors is a pretty darn good one.

 

[Xeno]

What really annoyed me was that we hated the Fant4stic cast because it was a terrible cast, but all the journalists writing it about fixated on MBJ and the race issue - when he was actually the best casting of the bunch.

And Fox played that up too, implying our dislike of everything we were hearing was because we were a bunch of racist jerks - not because they were making a lousy movie.

The actors were almost uniformly miscast in Fan4stic, or their roles were so poorly-written that their performances were awful. Reg E. Cathey was the only actor who didn't come off badly, imo, but that may be because he had a natural gravitas that made him seem above it. Of the younger actors, only Jordan showed anything other than complete indifference on screen. The script did them no favors but even the best writing possible couldn't have salvaged the other actors' performances. Jamie Bell has to be the single worst casting in any superhero movie, with Teller, Kebbell and Mara not far behind.

 

[DalekbusterFitz]

Why would it make more sense for the X-Men? It makes no difference if a member or two of the FF are a different race for the films. Their race is not fundamental to the characters. The only member who can make that claim is Ben and his Jewish heritage (plus the ever luvin' blue-eyed thing catchphrase).

I suppose with the X Men they are outcasts, so them being black might add a further dimension. It could touch on tones of racism and immigration.

 

[DalekbusterFitz]

Pretty sure Feige will stick close to the source material on F4 its what the fans are expecting. We waited so long for them to come home they can not screw this up. They'll play it safe.

Yeah, I feel like any diversity will be from the support cast around them as with Spider-Man: Homecoming. Willie Lumpkin could be black, for instance.

 

[Dark Raven]

Yeah, I feel like any diversity will be from the support cast around them as with Spider-Man: Homecoming. Willie Lumpkin could be black, for instance.

And miss a chance for another Stan Lee cameo there?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

A terrible cast, or miscast compared to the comics?

Because every one of those actors is a pretty darn good one.

Miscast compared to the comics is a terrible cast for a Fantastic Four film.

 

[Marvel united]

Really? As someone who read a lot of the reviews for that movie when it came out very rarely did reviewers mention the ethnicity of Johnny Storm, and even if they did, it wasn't as a knock exactly. There was plenty the movie had going against it but casting a black Human Torch wasn't one of them.

Yes, really. Most of the ones I read in 2015 had mentioned the controversy over Jordan and the relationship between Johnny and Sue. No, not a knock. But it was mentioned which is a testament to how widespread it was.

The backlash at best was mostly limited to online, really. There was no mainstream audience backlash at all. You're overstating.

As if the internet doesn't matter and is some niche thing? Of course the general audiences generally won't care, they don't care about comic accuracy and I'm sure many didn't care about Doom being a crash test dummy. They noticed, though, that's for sure. I'm sure many knew what Johnny Storm looked like prior. But the point is - F4 had bad press from the start because of these changes - Johnny's race swap included. It contributed to the downfall of the film with all of the negative press it had online. The internet matters.

And the main thing Zendaya was asked about in dozens of interviews is whether she was MJ or not..

Wrong. Being more iconic does not equal being more popular. Superman is more iconic than Spider-Man but that doesn't mean he's more popular.

And do you think people would be okay with Superman getting swapped? Superman like the F4's image is instilled within the public consciousness. You use Superman as an analogy but the backlash to a race swap on him would be even worse. Spider-Man being more popular doesn't matter.

Your point about anybody can easily recognize the FF --the FF are losing that. This is anecdotal but just recently I played a game called "Guess that Superhero' with a couple of very young children who love the MCU using this.

Children/small kids have nothing to do with my point. They aren't the ones who are going to be outraged, they aren't the ones who are going to start the controversy. People/adults are the ones who are going to be annoyed for a completely unnecessary change to these characters.

It's a shame that being more recognized doesn't always equal to being more liked or preferred by the audience as a whole. FF being more well-known doesn't equate to them being more well-liked by the mainstream as a whole.

Obviously. But that's about to change with the F4 entering the MCU.

Which is exactly what Crimz is getting at. If anything, thanks to those horrible films & lack of good media portrayals the FF brand is severely tarnished enough that I don't think most people who don't read comics or visit forums would care at all about a race-swap.

The people who DO care will make it a problem. The F4 isn't tarnished enough for most people to have forgotten what they are suppose to look like.

Look, I would like the FF to be cast as racially accurate as much as the next guy but the fact of the matter is I think Marvel shouldn't feel beholden to cast that way if they felt a person of color better personified that character than most white actors could.

This argument makes zero sense. There are Thousands of white actors out there in Hollywood, why would nobody white be a good fit for The F4? There are going to hundreds of actors auditioning for these parts. By definition of the actual word - The "best actor" for the job would check ALL of a character's traits including not just their personality traits but their physical traits as well.

what I'm getting at is that race-swapping won't effect the MCU Fantastic in either a negative or good way. . What will effect it will be how good the film is, not the actors skin color who's cast.

So what is the point, then? Why change the F4? "Because somebody who isn't white might be the best choice" out of the hundreds of white actors auditioning, none of them are a good fit? No way, man. So again, why race swap the F4 if it doesn't matter? it's change for the sake of change. Simple as that.

 

[Xeno]

A terrible cast, or miscast compared to the comics?

Because every one of those actors is a pretty darn good one.

They may be good actors but they turned in bad performances in a terrible film. Only Jordan and Cathey seemed like they were even trying. The others acted as if they were being held hostage by a talentless director and forced to perform in his movie. Maybe that's how they felt.

 

[Marvel united]

I suppose with the X Men they are outcasts, so them being black might add a further dimension. It could touch on tones of racism and immigration.

Right. A story about discriminated minorities which were based on the Civil rights era of the 60s, SHOULD have more minorities in the movie. The Fox X-Men movies did have a problem with diversity and they even white washed certain roles like Sunspot and Cecilia Reyes. The X-Men absolutely should be more diverse ala Spider-Man Homecoming.

F4? Change for the sake of change with no real reason for the changes

 

[MasterCat]

Right. A story about discriminated minorities which were based on the Civil rights era of the 60s, SHOULD have more minorities in the movie.

The X-Men are more science fiction than an allegory only for the US civil rights movement. Only 1 in 8 American mutants should be black, and 1 in 20 Asian.
The really underrepresented demographic is Latino, especially if Xavier recruits from Mexico/South America and not just the 1 in 7 or so Americans who'd be Latino.