Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Willie Lumpkin]

Yeah, and really it’s worked well. Its why Wasp I was a science major instead of a costume designer and why Jane was a kickass scientist instead of just a doe eyed fawn (until Thor the dark world)

This is the problem. Everybody is a scientist in the MCU, and when everybody is special, nobody is special. I'm all for STEM. I'm STEM myself, but it's hokey and trite and bad universe-building to make everybody STEM.

Different people with different types of talents are what make a capable team. And the idea that Sue can't be brilliant and extremely valuable with talents that aren't STEM is short-sighted and dismissive to the hundreds of millions of people in our country who provide vital non-technical functions in our society every day.

 

[Crimz]

[snip]

Johnny and especially Sue having no good reason to be on the space flight has been an issue of their origin. It's dated and seeped in the beliefs of the time. The Fantastic Four are a science/ exploration team first and foremost and it's a problem when only one is in a scientific field.
It's not about Sue and Johnny being written smart, it's about their use on the team outside of their powers.

Most of the time the Fantastic Four doesn't feel like a team, it feels like it's about Reed and the others are his supporting cast. Him being the only one who does the scientific exploring is apart of the reason for that. It's often Reed's journey and he just drags the others along for the ride. They have no agency, no say on where the team should go, don't choose the adventures. It's all on Reed. Him not being the only one involved in science aspect will change that. Johnny helping him on one of their spacecrafts and wanting the team to go somewhere far in the traverse to push it's limits, Sue wanting to stay longer on a planet to help out an alien race with her medical skills. These things give them agency and more than just along for the ride to support Reed.

Also, a doctor and engineer aren't jobs only geniuses can do and they don't take away from Sue and Johnny being "average people". Average people go for these types of jobs all the time. Being a doctor is more about hard work and determination, qualities that Sue has.

There is no issue with a team mostly about science and exploration having it's members be involved in that aspect.

 

[Crimz]

This is the problem. Everybody is a scientist in the MCU, and when everybody is special, nobody is special. I'm all for STEM. I'm STEM myself, but it's hokey and trite and bad universe-building to make everybody STEM.

Different people with different types of talents are what make a capable team. And the idea that Sue can't be brilliant and extremely valuable with talents that aren't STEM is short-sighted and dismissive to the hundreds of millions of people in our country who provide vital non-technical functions in our society every day.

The Fantastic Four are a science based team. Shouldn't it's members be involved in that?

I'm gonna come right out and say it. Sue provides nothing for the team.
If they didn't get powers she'd be useless and have no valid reason to go on adventures. She's just Reed's wife and baby maker.

What does she do and bring to the team? Not the family, the team.

It's been over 50 years yet things have only slightly improved for Sue.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'm gonna come right out and say it. Sue provides nothing for the team.
If they didn't get powers she'd be useless and have no valid reason to go on adventures. She's just Reed's wife and baby maker.

But she does have powers. She is the most powerful member of the team, so we can't start a discussion of what she brings to the team without talking about her powers.

She is also, unlike every other member of the team, a diplomat. That can be pretty damn useful when you are exploring new worlds and meeting new races and societies.

To say Sue is worthless would be like saying Madeline Albright or Condoleezza Rice accomplished nothing because they weren't engineers.

She does need to be made a little more interesting and modern than the original Sue, but I don't agree with the tired, knee-jerk idea of making her a scientist.

What if, building on my previous comment, she worked at the State Department as a foreign service officer (as one of 10,000 possibilities)? That would be a lot more interesting than just making her a scientist.

 

[Crimz]

But she does have powers. She is the most powerful member of the team, so we can't start a discussion of what she brings to the team without talking about her powers.

She is also, unlike every other member of the team, a diplomat. That can be pretty damn useful when you are exploring new worlds and meeting new races and societies.

To say Sue is worthless would be like saying Madeline Albright or Condoleezza Rice accomplished nothing because they weren't engineers.

She does need to be made a little more interesting and modern than the original Sue, but I don't agree with the tired, knee-jerk idea of making her a scientist.

What if, building on my previous comment, she worked at the State Department as a foreign service officer (as one of 10,000 possibilities)? That would be a lot more interesting than just making her a scientist.

The Fantastic Four is meant to be a team that would still be adventuring and doing what they do even if they didn't have powers. Sue is the odd one out as having no role if they never got them. She provides nothing outside of her powers. I too don't want her to be a scientist, I think a doctor is a happy medium and what the team is missing. It's also a role that's not overused in the MCU, the only other medical professional was Dr Strange and that's no longer the case after his accident. She'd be the only superhero who's an active medical professional.

I don't mind the diplomat path, that's another route they could go. All I'm saying is that Sue's reason for being on the team and first mission has to be more than just being Reed's wife/girlfriend who was dragged along. She needs a role and her own motivations.

 

[Dark Raven]

The Fantastic Four is meant to be a team that would still be adventuring and doing what they do even if they didn't have powers. Sue is the odd one out as having no role if they never got them. She provides nothing outside of her powers. I too don't want her to be a scientist, I think a doctor is a happy medium and what the team is missing. It's also a role that's not overused in the MCU, the only other medical professional was Dr Strange and that's no longer the case after his accident. She'd be the only superhero who's an active medical professional.

I don't mind the diplomat path, that's another route they could go. All I'm saying is that Sue's reason for being on the team and first mission has to be more than just being Reed's wife/girlfriend who was dragged along. She needs a role and her own motivations.

In Star Trek the Next Generation they had Counsellor Troi. You might wonder what's the point of having a ship's counsellor on board, but they seemed to have one (although they never had a need for it in any of the other Trek series). I don't know if Sue could fill that kind of role instead of scientist or doctor.

BUT, what if they did take a leaf out of Star Trek and made them explorers in the first place? What if it were like if the crew of the Enterprise suddenly got special powers? And what if they made Sue like Captain Janeway as the commander of the ship, and Reed as the science officer?

If you look at Kirk and Spock, they're both fully capable of commanding the Enterprise and leading, but they have different styles.

As long as they don't make Sue like Beverley Crusher, and then make Johnny her son and make him like Wesley Crusher.

 

[Crimz]

In Star Trek the Next Generation they had Counsellor Troi. You might wonder what's the point of having a ship's counsellor on board, but they seemed to have one (although they never had a need for it in any of the other Trek series). I don't know if Sue could fill that kind of role instead of scientist or doctor.

BUT, what if they did take a leaf out of Star Trek and made them explorers in the first place? What if it were like if the crew of the Enterprise suddenly got special powers? And what if they made Sue like Captain Janeway as the commander of the ship, and Reed as the science officer?

If you look at Kirk and Spock, they're both fully capable of commanding the Enterprise and leading, but they have different styles.

As long as they don't make Sue like Beverley Crusher, and then make Johnny her son and make him like Wesley Crusher.

Sorry, I've never watched Star Trek so most of this is lost on me. What are you trying to say?

 

[Silvermoth]

This is the problem. Everybody is a scientist in the MCU, and when everybody is special, nobody is special. I'm all for STEM. I'm STEM myself, but it's hokey and trite and bad universe-building to make everybody STEM.

Different people with different types of talents are what make a capable team. And the idea that Sue can't be brilliant and extremely valuable with talents that aren't STEM is short-sighted and dismissive to the hundreds of millions of people in our country who provide vital non-technical functions in our society every day.

Nonsense, special people working together doesn’t make anyone less special. It’s not like NASA is done entirely by one person. People can have different fields and that’s what people are having fun with, if reed is engineering what other fields can people specialise in.

I mean, sooner or later they’re going to want to bring in Monica rappachini too but that doesn’t make reed or sue less special. Or even reed and sue!

But she does have powers. She is the most powerful member of the team, so we can't start a discussion of what she brings to the team without talking about her powers.

She is also, unlike every other member of the team, a diplomat. That can be pretty damn useful when you are exploring new worlds and meeting new races and societies.

To say Sue is worthless would be like saying Madeline Albright or Condoleezza Rice accomplished nothing because they weren't engineers.

She does need to be made a little more interesting and modern than the original Sue, but I don't agree with the tired, knee-jerk idea of making her a scientist.

What if, building on my previous comment, she worked at the State Department as a foreign service officer (as one of 10,000 possibilities)? That would be a lot more interesting than just making her a scientist.

Yeah you definitely wouldn’t say sue is useless. She’s actually a tank especially at a distance and having a ton of heart is what keeps the entire team together.

Intergalactic diplomacy would be so much fun and a great contrast to captain marvel’s more general like approach. That’s why I wanted sue to be an expert in astrobiology or even ancient cultures

 

[DalekbusterFitz]

There’s still Ben to show the average person versus reed. I don’t think it’s boring. It would definitely be more boring if he was this amazing intellect and her only job was pointing at stuff and saying “what’s that?”

Not really. Doctor Who shows that can work fine.

 

[Crimz]

Not really. Doctor Who shows that can work fine.

There is a big difference between the two franchises and you can see it from their names.

Ones called Dr Who, the other Fantastic Four. Not Mr Fantastic or Reed Richards.

The Doctor is the main character and his assistants are his supporting cast. It's all about him and the assistant is the audience surrogate into his world and exists to develop him more.

The Fantastic Four are a team that are meant to be equally important. Not the Reed show with the others are just dragged along to make him look good. He can still explain complicated things in his field of expertise, but that doesn't mean that the others need to have no roles for it to happen.
Sue being a doctor doesn't mean that she suddenly understands quantum physics, metaphysics, and FTL travel. Reed's know-it-all status would remain intact.

 

[Silvermoth]

Not really. Doctor Who shows that can work fine.

Doctor who is exactly a good example of what not to do. Many people have said the women characters on that show are at their worst when they just point at things and say “what’s that?”

I wonder who’s actually going to be the one to build the Baxter building? Maybe it exists already and the FF just move in. Or maybe shield or sword will build it after a secret invasion? Or maybe Tony Stark bequeaths the creation of the future foundation in the “unlikely” event of his death

 

[Spider-Fan]

I wouldn't make Sue a scientist purely because a good part of why there is dysfunction between them is the fact that Reed's love of science distracts him from his family. If she is a scientist, then that no longer alienates Reed from Sue in as meaningful a way. Now she can just work on science with him 24/7 basically. It's not as interesting. I agree Sue needs to be more than trophy wife/babymaker, but making her a scientist is not the way to go IMO. Lawyer/CEO who runs the FF enterprise from a business sense...maybe a medical doctor (not scientist), etc. Something like that could work. She needs something like that. But making her a scientist just makes their dysfunctional marriage less interesting.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

Well, isn't the real problem in creating a compelling reason for Sue and Johnny to be on the ill-fated space flight? What worked in the 60's certainly won't work today - "Hey Ben, let's steal my spacecraft and take my girlfriend and her kid brother along just for kicks".

What role would you give them?
Having Sue someone knowledgeable in life support and Johnny a mechanical engineer of some kind would give them both a purpose for any manner of scientific endeavors of Reed's if you stick with the space flight.
If they change that parameter, and there's no space flight, then you would need a purpose for Ben too.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think making Sue a doctor and Johnny an engineer would be fine changes. I just specifically don't support making them scientists of other disciplines of science. I think it would undermine one of the core conflicts that makes the characters interesting and would create less opportunities for their family chaos and dysfunction that makes them fun.

 

[marcvader]

What does Elasti-Girl do for a living? Is she pointless to her team or come off as weak?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Well, isn't the real problem in creating a compelling reason for Sue and Johnny to be on the ill-fated space flight?

In 2018, I don't think she needs a "reason". If Justin Beiber can do it ( Justin Bieber buys a ticket to space — the one place (most of) his fans can’t follow ) why not Sue?

It makes perfect sense to me that if Reed is developing a space ship, he would take her along because:

1. It would show his confidence in the safety of his design.
2. Who wouldn't go if they had a chance?

 

[Crimz]

What does Elasti-Girl do for a living? Is she pointless to her team or come off as weak?

The Incredibles are 100% superheroes, while the FF are scientific explorers first and foremost. Plus the second movie made her strike out her own. It's a completely different team with different goals. It's better to compare the Incredibles to the Avengers in terms of what the team aims for.

In 2018, I don't think she needs a "reason". If Justin Beiber can do it ( Justin Bieber buys a ticket to space — the one place (most of) his fans can’t follow ) why not Sue?

It makes perfect sense to me that if Reed is developing a space ship, he would take her along because:

1. It would show his confidence in the safety of his design.
2. Who wouldn't go if they had a chance?

The FF are meant to be an equal team. Sue and Johnny should be a part of the crew, not the passengers.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The Incredibles are 100% superheroes, while the FF are scientific explorers first and foremost. Plus the second movie made her strike out her own. It's a completely different team with different goals. It's better to compare the Incredibles to the Avengers in terms of what the team aims for.




The FF are meant to be an equal team. Sue and Johnny should be a part of the crew, not the passengers.

They can still be part of the crew without being scientists. They're a family of scientific explorers, yes. They can all be cogs in that wheel, but I do feel like a good amount of the bickering, the chemistry, the misunderstandings, etc. Much of what gives their interactions the flavor we have come to know and love them for is lost if they're speaking the exact same language. That is why I don't favor Sue or Johnny as scientists specifically. Some specialization like engineering, mechanic, medical doctor, etc. I am okay with those.

 

[2kt09]

They can still be part of the crew without being scientists. They're a family of scientific explorers, yes. They can all be cogs in that wheel, but I do feel like a good amount of the bickering, the chemistry, the misunderstandings, etc. Much of what gives their interactions the flavor we have come to know and love them for is lost if they're speaking the exact same language. That is why I don't favor Sue or Johnny as scientists specifically. Some specialization like engineering, mechanic, medical doctor, etc. I am okay with those.

Not the case for this group, as loose adaptations they may be:

 

[Spider-Fan]

Not the case for this group, as loose adaptations they may be:

Big Hero 6 are not the FF. Your example is poor. Further, what makes Reed and Sue different from, say, Hank & Janet if they're both scientists in the MCU? What is the source of their friction? It cannot be Reed's divided brain between Sue and science, because shouldn't she love science then as well? Shouldn't they be doing the research together? Where is the tension? The drama?

 

[Crimz]

They can still be part of the crew without being scientists. They're a family of scientific explorers, yes. They can all be cogs in that wheel, but I do feel like a good amount of the bickering, the chemistry, the misunderstandings, etc. Much of what gives their interactions the flavor we have come to know and love them for is lost if they're speaking the exact same language. That is why I don't favor Sue or Johnny as scientists specifically. Some specialization like engineering, mechanic, medical doctor, etc. I am okay with those.

I don't want them to be scientists like Reed for similar reasons to what you're saying.

I want Sue to be a doctor and Johnny an engineer like he is in comics.

They definitely need roles though and I agree that scientist is the wrong choice.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

They can still be part of the crew without being scientists. They're a family of scientific explorers, yes. They can all be cogs in that wheel, but I do feel like a good amount of the bickering, the chemistry, the misunderstandings, etc. Much of what gives their interactions the flavor we have come to know and love them for is lost if they're speaking the exact same language. That is why I don't favor Sue or Johnny as scientists specifically. Some specialization like engineering, mechanic, medical doctor, etc. I am okay with those.

Yeah, the key to me is diversity. The FF has always been interesting because they are a group of four very different people. Sue shouldn't be a 1960's house wife, but there's no need to force a mission role on her, particularly now that, in 2018 the idea of civilians going into space is very real.

A good writer can show her value to the team after the accident in an infinite number of ways. It doesn't need to be forced into the origin and she and Johnny don't need to be "mission critical". They weren't in 1961 and it makes far more sense in 2018.

And one thing I like about making her not part of the original mission is it would allow the other members to discount her importance and skills ... and allow her to show them how wrong they are to take her lightly.

THAT opens up some interesting story possibilities. Making her a member of the crew is much more familiar, much easier, and much less interesting to me.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I absolutely LOVE (and hope to see) Agatha Harkness. And the reason I love her is your first impression of her is that she's a frail, feeble old woman... then when you find out how much ass she can kick, it's a lot of fun.

There's a similar possibility here with Sue. Make her seem out of place, not as strong or adventurous or confident as the others. Have Reed talk down to her. Then when she kicks serious ass, it will be that much more fun.

A good story has character arcs, not character lines.

 

[Crimz]

Yeah, the key to me is diversity. The FF has always been interesting because they are a group of four very different people. Sue shouldn't be a 1960's house wife, but there's no need to force a mission role on her, particularly now that, in 2018 the idea of civilians going into space is very real.

A good writer can show her value to the team after the accident in an infinite number of ways. It doesn't need to be forced into the origin and she and Johnny don't need to be "mission critical". They weren't in 1961 and it makes far more sense in 2018.

And one thing I like about making her not part of the original mission is it would allow the other members to discount her importance and skills ... and allow her to show them how wrong they are to take her lightly.

THAT opens up some interesting story possibilities. Making her a member of the crew is much more familiar, much easier, and much less interesting to me.

That can easily be done with Sue as a doctor too. Doctors aren't really known for kicking ass, in fact people view them as mostly fixing wounds instead of causing them. Your healer also being your biggest gun would be very unexpected. You get to have Sue be underestimated and kick ass without her having no reason to be on the team.

Plus, the characters and audience can only underestimate her once and when they see that she's a badass we're back to square one. She's have no role on the adventuring aspect of the team, the thing that should be the focus.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

That can easily be done with Sue as a doctor too. Doctors aren't really known for kicking ass, in fact people view them as mostly fixing wounds instead of causing them. Your healer also being your biggest gun would be very unexpected.

I'm okay with her being a doctor, but if so, I'd kind of rather have her be a doctor who isn't a necessary part of the mission as opposed to one that is.