Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[Willie Lumpkin]

How is that overstating things? No one is arguing they stick to the source material to the absolute letter every single time, but they clearly do a better job of this than anyone else making superhero movies. It's pretty easy to see why they are regularly praised for it.

I think one of the most difficult, most important and most impressive things Feige has done is to maintain the key elements of the comics while changing some details without straying too far, and doing so without allowing things to get goofy. It's a tightrope act, and while Feige makes it look easy, we can see, from the failures of other studios, how difficult it really is.

It would have been a lot easier and more believable to give Captain America or Dr. Strange simpler, less colorful costumes. Many would have argued that Thor spinning his hammer and then flying with it would strain credulity. A talking racoon? Come on. We can't put that in a movie.

Other studios, and I feel many people on these boards, are too quick to change things in the interest of making them "belivable", but I think Kevin Feige really understands, more than most people, how important it is to show some of the most fantastic elements of the comic books along with other simpler, seemingly disposable elements.. And he puts a lot of effort into doing those things rather than taking the easy route of changing things.

 

[Iceman]

I think one of the most difficult, most important and most impressive things Feige has done is to maintain the key elements of the comics while changing some details without straying too far, and doing so without allowing things to get goofy. It's a tightrope act, and while Feige makes it look easy, we can see, from the failures of other studios, how difficult it really is.

It would have been a lot easier and more believable to give Captain America or Dr. Strange simpler, less colorful costumes. Many would have argued that Thor spinning his hammer and then flying with it would strain credulity. A talking racoon? Come on. We can't put that in a movie.

Other studios, and I feel many people on these boards, are too quick to change things in the interest of making them "belivable", but I think Kevin Feige really understands, more than most people, how important it is to show some of the most fantastic elements of the comic books along with other simpler, seemingly disposable elements.. And he puts a lot of effort into doing those things rather than taking the easy route of changing things.

I never thought we’d get the talking raccoon lol.

 

[Flint Marko]

I think one of the most difficult, most important and most impressive things Feige has done is to maintain the key elements of the comics while changing some details without straying too far, and doing so without allowing things to get goofy. It's a tightrope act, and while Feige makes it look easy, we can see, from the failures of other studios, how difficult it really is.

It would have been a lot easier and more believable to give Captain America or Dr. Strange simpler, less colorful costumes. Many would have argued that Thor spinning his hammer and then flying with it would strain credulity. A talking racoon? Come on. We can't put that in a movie.

Other studios, and I feel many people on these boards, are too quick to change things in the interest of making them "belivable", but I think Kevin Feige really understands, more than most people, how important it is to show some of the most fantastic elements of the comic books along with other simpler, seemingly disposable elements.. And he puts a lot of effort into doing those things rather than taking the easy route of changing things.

Wonderfully said. I remember reading years ago that the main reason Cap's first movie was a period piece was due to Fiege putting his foot down and insisting it be that way amongst a sea of doubters at Marvel Studios and I found that downright shocking - not that Fiege had the right idea, but that a room full of people who worked for a comic book company didn't understand what was right for the character.

It's clearly much worse at WB and Fox, where they view the source material as broken and in need of fixing. The results speak for themselves. I'd include Sony in that list but I don't even think their executives know how to tie their own shoes.

 

[Dark Raven]

Wonderfully said. I remember reading years ago that the main reason Cap's first movie was a period piece was due to Fiege putting his foot down and insisting it be that way amongst a sea of doubters at Marvel Studios and I found that downright shocking - not that Fiege had the right idea, but that a room full of people who worked for a comic book company didn't understand what was right for the character.

It's clearly much worse at WB and Fox, where they view the source material as broken and in need of fixing. The results speak for themselves. I'd include Sony in that list but I don't even think their executives know how to tie their own shoes.

Neither do Fox. That's how we got that Tom Hanks movie "The Man With One Red Shoe".

 

[2kt09]

I remember reading years ago that the main reason Cap's first movie was a period piece was due to Fiege putting his foot down and insisting it be that way amongst a sea of doubters at Marvel Studios and I found that downright shocking - not that Fiege had the right idea, but that a room full of people who worked for a comic book company didn't understand what was right for the character.

[Feige] said they [Marvel] went and looked at Raiders of the Lost Ark, which he says he "didn't know" was a period piece when he was watching it. They want to make Captain America with the "same level of fun" as that.

Profile on Marvel Studios with Big Updates from Kevin Feige

 

[Flint Marko]

Profile on Marvel Studios with Big Updates from Kevin Feige

 

[2kt09]

I got the point, just backing up with the source and sifting through the "hype" talk.
Raiders of the Lost Ark-styled Captain America would've been pretty fantastic.

 

[Flint Marko]

I got the point, just backing up with the source and sifting through the "hype" talk.

"Hype talk". I don't know what you're saying here or what it has to do with my point.

Raiders of the Lost Ark-styled Captain America would've been pretty fantastic.

You should check out Captain America: The First Avenger, because that's basically what we got and it was fantastic.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

You should check out Captain America: The First Avenger, because that's basically what we got and it was fantastic.

I always sort of thought the Red Skull's comment about 'the Fuhrer digging for trinkets in the desert' seemed intentionally designed as a wink to the audience regarding the seemingly intentional similarities (such as the spy trying to escape in a submarine in CA as compared to the Nazis transporting the Ark in a submarine in ROTLA as one quick example).

 

[Flint Marko]

I always sort of thought the Red Skull's comment about 'the Fuhrer digging for trinkets in the desert' seemed intentionally designed as a wink to the audience regarding the seemingly intentional similarities (such as the spy trying to escape in a submarine in CA as compared to the Nazis transporting the Ark in a submarine in ROTLA as one quick example).

That's no accident. TFA is dripping with Raider's influence and it's nearly impossible not to see it - not only is that an overt reference to Raiders (coyly implying it's in the same universe, sorry Universal Studios) but the art director and VFX supervisor of Raiders, Joe Johnston, directed Cap's origin movie.

 

[Silvermoth]

If they make Sue and Johnny mother and son, then they can be like Dr Beverley Crusher and Wesley Crusher, her genius son in Star Trek: TNG

Reed can be a cross between Captain Picard and Data, and Ben can be a cross between Riker and Worf.

Hmm not really my thing. I like the idea of Johnny being a good uncle to Franklin and Valeria to represent all us good uncles out there

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

How is that overstating things? No one is arguing they stick to the source material to the absolute letter every single time, but they clearly do a better job of this than anyone else making superhero movies. It's pretty easy to see why they are regularly praised for it.

Oh Flint... the man that doesn't get offended who can't help himself from running to defend Marvel Studios from even the barest, most milquetoast and inoffensive criticism. At this point it's actually cute.

To be clear... Yes I think lots of fans do overstate the fidelity of the MCU when they have, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, taken big liberties and veered from the source material... And that's fine. These are adaptations and I accept changes are gonna happen while not always in agreement with some changes and also thinking sometimes the changes are improvements... But they have taken liberties that are in fact NOT in line with the comics and will continue to do so and it's possible to have an opinion that lots of fans' claim of fidelity are overblown in the face of some pretty big deviations from source ranging from origins, events and yes, even characterizations.

 

[Silvermoth]

I was watching the Netflix series “A series of unfortunate events” and I thought Barry Sonnenfeld might be a fun person to direct this. He also did both Addams family movies and men in Black. I don’t know why he’s not more celebrated

 

[Flint Marko]

Oh Flint... the man that doesn't get offended who can't help himself from running to defend Marvel Studios from even the barest, most milquetoast and inoffensive criticism. At this point it's actually cute.

Never once said I don't get offended nor is me asking a simple question "running to defend" anything.

I appreciate this response though because it's a great example of your behavior. I say things about movies that you don't agree with, so you treat me with an unwarranted level of snark while ironically spending a good deal of your time on your high horse talking down to people about how they should carry themselves.

Grow some self-awareness, because I'm not the problem here.

To be clear... Yes I think lots of fans do overstate the fidelity of the MCU when they have, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, taken big liberties and veered from the source material... And that's fine. These are adaptations and I accept changes are gonna happen while not always in agreement with some changes and also thinking sometimes the changes are improvements... But they have taken liberties that are in fact NOT in line with the comics and will continue to do so and it's possible to have an opinion that lots of fans' claim of fidelity are overblown in the face of some pretty big deviations from source ranging from origins, events and yes, even characterizations.

Never said you couldn't have an opinion, I'm merely asking you to explain it. How often have they taken liberties that are not in line with the comics to the detriment of the property in question, and how have fans responded? I'm not sure what there is to overstate because I have yet to see anyone claim they never deviate from the source material.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

To be clear... Yes I think lots of fans do overstate the fidelity of the MCU when they have, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, taken big liberties and veered from the source material... And that's fine. These are adaptations and I accept changes are gonna happen while not always in agreement with some changes and also thinking sometimes the changes are improvements... But they have taken liberties that are in fact NOT in line with the comics and will continue to do so and it's possible to have an opinion that lots of fans' claim of fidelity are overblown in the face of some pretty big deviations from source ranging from origins, events and yes, even characterizations.

I think what Marvel does is take liberties fans are okay with, and that's exactly what they should do. Fans will accept major changes to minor details or minor changes to major details, but they won't accept major changes to major details (like Fant4stic).

Some changes need to be made and some fans will complain about anything, so it's impossible to completely avoid complaints.

But the bottom line is fans generally say: "We like what you're doing Marvel, keep it up." so they're doing it right.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

What Marvel did with Mandarin was pretty dumb on several levels. And I think most Marvel fans have said: "Hey Marvel, that was pretty dumb."

But all the things Marvel does right outweighs the things they do wrong and I think most fans feel that way and are good with Marvel because of that.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I actually liked the Mandarin twist quite a lot conceptually. However, I do think Aldrich Killian was an overall boring villain. Had they done more with him, I think the twist would have worked even better. The stuff with Trevor and the idea behind it was great, though. Killian is the element that needed some work.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Getting back to the topic of Fantastic Four specifically, I'm completely comfortable with Marvel taking control and optimistic they'll do it right. If we see production designs or set photos etc. that I don't like, I'll say it. I won't hold my tongue just because they're Marvel.

I have confidence Marvel will do far better than Fox, but if Marvel makes a turd, I'll call it a turd.

 

[Dark Raven]

What Marvel did with Mandarin was pretty dumb on several levels. And I think most Marvel fans have said: "Hey Marvel, that was pretty dumb."

But all the things Marvel does right outweighs the things they do wrong and I think most fans feel that way and are good with Marvel because of that.

Even if the Mandarin weren't Iron Man's arch enemy, the fact that they set him up as an extremely formidable foe in the first part of the movie, and then suddenly turned him into a ridiculous buffoon of an actor was bad. It took people out of the movie and turned it into a spoof.

Whatever people may feel about whether the Mandarin is outdated or not, having that kind of about turn just doesn't work well. It would be the same if it were any other character.

Imagine if they've been building up Thanos all this time, and then suddenly at the last second they pull the rug out and he's not actually a threat himself but just putting on an act, and it's someone else who is behind it all. And imagine if Thanos were just an actor who is a snivelling coward.

Now would some people get a good laugh out of that? I'm sure they would. But it would seriously undermine everything and not make Infinity War as universally loved.

If they did that with Dr Doom, imagine the outcry. Yes, I'm sure FFINO defenders would laugh because they never respected Doom in the first place. But for the rest of us, it would be a cheap trick.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I actually liked the Mandarin twist quite a lot conceptually. However, I do think Aldrich Killian was an overall boring villain. Had they done more with him, I think the twist would have worked even better. The stuff with Trevor and the idea behind it was great, though. Killian is the element that needed some work.

I think most fans would have been a lot better if they simply hadn't called him "Mandarin", and in hindsight it's baffling that they just didn't create a more generic character to serve that purpose.

And from my point of view (as someone who doesn't really know or care much about Mandarin), the most disappointing thing to me was I really liked that creepy terrorist villain we saw in the first act. He made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and that's the kind of villain Marvel needed, so it was highly disappointing as a viewer to slam on the brakes midway through and instead of seeing Iron Man defeat that great villain, he went up against somebody I didn't care about.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Even if the Mandarin weren't Iron Man's arch enemy, the fact that they set him up as an extremely formidable foe in the first part of the movie, and then suddenly turned him into a ridiculous buffoon of an actor was bad. It took people out of the movie and turned it into a spoof.

Whatever people may feel about whether the Mandarin is outdated or not, having that kind of about turn just doesn't work well. It would be the same if it were any other character.

Imagine if they've been building up Thanos all this time, and then suddenly at the last second they pull the rug out and he's not actually a threat himself but just putting on an act, and it's someone else who is behind it all. And imagine if Thanos were just an actor who is a snivelling coward.

Now would some people get a good laugh out of that? I'm sure they would. But it would seriously undermine everything and not make Infinity War as universally loved.

If they did that with Dr Doom, imagine the outcry. Yes, I'm sure FFINO defenders would laugh because they never respected Doom in the first place. But for the rest of us, it would be a cheap trick.

Yep. I was typing my comment as you were typing yours, and we're in complete agreement on this point.

 

[Dark Raven]

Yep. I was typing my comment as you were typing yours, and we're in complete agreement on this point.

And while some people would say they were fine with the Mandarin, because they didn't care for that character at all, that's exactly what all the FFINO defenders said about all the changes made to them. They were fine with those because they didn't care for the FF or Doom either and thought they were lame to begin with and needed updating. Remember in 2015 how many people said this or that change looks really interesting or for the better etc?

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think most fans would have been a lot better if they simply hadn't called him "Mandarin", and in hindsight it's baffling that they just didn't create a more generic character to serve that purpose.

And from my point of view (as someone who doesn't really know or care much about Mandarin), the most disappointing thing to me was I really liked that creepy terrorist villain we saw in the first act. He made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and that's the kind of villain Marvel needed, so it was highly disappointing as a viewer to slam on the brakes midway through and instead of seeing Iron Man defeat that great villain, he went up against somebody I didn't care about.

The swerve only works because the Mandarin was great in that first act. You buy into him as a villain. This would have been genius if Killian was up to task. Sadly, his backstory was weak and he was bland. If they had given us a character as interesting as Obediah Stane was in IM1 in Killian's role, the Mandarin twist would have 100% worked. I do think the Killian Mandarin honored the character in several facets. He was able to break Iron Man's armor with his fists, he was a master of close combat, etc. So it is not like they stripped away all the elements of the Mandarin from Killian. But he needed a much stronger backstory and characterization. Becoming evil because you were snubbed at a party is weak sauce.

 

[Dark Raven]

The swerve only works because the Mandarin was great in that first act. You buy into him as a villain. This would have been genius if Killian was up to task. Sadly, his backstory was weak and he was bland. If they had given us a character as interesting as Obediah Stane was in IM1 in Killian's role, the Mandarin twist would have 100% worked. I do think the Killian Mandarin honored the character in several facets. He was able to break Iron Man's armor with his fists, he was a master of close combat, etc. So it is not like they stripped away all the elements of the Mandarin from Killian. But he needed a much stronger backstory and characterization. Becoming evil because you were snubbed at a party is weak sauce.

Would you have accepted the same kind of swerve with Thanos half way through Infinity War after he had been built up as a great villain over the course of several films and through the first part of Infinity War? Let's say Ebony Maw or someone else were the real power behind the throne and Thanos was just a puppet and figurehead whom we find out actually has a completely different personality? He was as interesting as Obadiah Stane wasn't he?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Would you have accepted the same kind of swerve with Thanos half way through Infinity War after he had been built up as a great villain over the course of several films and through the first part of Infinity War? Let's say Ebony Maw or someone else were the real power behind the throne and Thanos was just a puppet and figurehead whom we find out actually has a completely different personality? He was as interesting as Obadiah Stane wasn't he?

It's not really the same equivalence. Thanos was presented as the bad guy of the whole franchise (not just Iron Man), but even there they did alter things about from comic to movie fairly heavily. We also saw Thanos in other movies, while the Mandarin (while hinted) was never actually directly referenced. But even if I am going to work with your comparison, it would have depended on execution. If they made Ebony Maw a great villain that earned our respect after the bait and switch, then fine. It works. The issue with Killian is he doesn't.