First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[Webhead2006]

well maybe it will be a key part for movie capt we just have to see how it all ultimately works out.

 

[Rage]

To be fair the death of Bruce Wayne's parents is integral to the character..its why he goes out every night in a Bat suit...the USO is not integral to the Cap story.

True, the USO is not... but his desire to step up to the plate and do the right thing for America in its time of need is. He wanted to go to war (like every other red blooded american after Pearl Harbor) but was unable to because of his frailness. He RISKS his life in an experimental scientific program... so he can go to war... And they still don't let him... that does play into the integral elements of who (and why) Captain America is.

So adding in the USO and having it as a reason that he is again not permitted to go to war... really amps up the frustration level of Steve and reinforces that original longing to go to war and fight the good fight.

I think the USO idea makes all kinds of sense. We get the Kirby costume, we get the angst and character development and as a neat side note... maybe some historical cameos.

 

[StarvingArtist]

The USO idea just sucks so bad. Seems like Johnston just found Cap's costume so embarrasing that he's over-reaching to explain why he wears it. What sense does it make that the government wouldn't want to utilize the product of I presume a billion dollar arms project? Seriously, the USO is the the best option? Stick him in a song and dance show?.... what? Why would captain america even let himself be subjected to that bull****... to quote south park, "...dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb."

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

The USO idea just sucks so bad. Seems like Johnston just found Cap's costume so embarrasing that he's over-reaching to explain why he wears it.

Its not embarrassing. But think about it from the GA point of view. They're going to want explanation to why Captain America's fighting in the costume. I know some other heroes didn't need explanation, one, other superheroes didn't fight in a historic period war, and two, does anyone remember how that went in the 1990s film. If you don't, allow me to have the Nostalgia Critic remind you. Fast-Forward the video to 5:00

[YT]ZYkpjciDLWk[/YT]

And when you see that, watch the whole video cause its pretty hilarious.

What sense does it make that the government wouldn't want to utilize the product of I presume a billion dollar arms project?


He's more than an arms weapon. He's human but he's also a project to the government, and they want to make more of this "project" which becomes harder after the scientist is killed. The last thing they need is Steve going out to war without ever finding out the data to create another super soldier again.

If you're trying to create more super-soldiers, you wouldn't want to take any chances at all especially when you have to fully recreate the SSS.

Seriously, the USO is the the best option? Stick him in a song and dance show?.... what? Why would captain america even let himself be subjected to that bull****

Have you even read the other posts? Whether you agree or not with the idea, the USO shows were very important to our nation and its was more than a "song and dance" show.

 

[roach]

Its not embarrassing. But think about it from the GA point of view. They're going to want explanation to why Captain America's fighting in the costume.

My issue with this is whats wrong with the explanation from the comics??

And when you see that, watch the whole video cause its pretty hilarious.

its a crappy movie...there is a reason why you never saw it in the theaters

What sense does it make that the government wouldn't want to utilize the product of I presume a billion dollar arms project?


He's more than an arms weapon. He's human but he's also a project to the government, and they want to make more of this "project" which becomes harder after the scientist is killed. The last thing they need is Steve going out to war without ever finding out the data to create another super soldier again.
Which is why it makes more sense to have him stuck in a lab rather than a USO show

If you're trying to create more super-soldiers, you wouldn't want to take any chances at all especially when you have to fully recreate the SSS.



Seriously, the USO is the the best option? Stick him in a song and dance show?.... what? Why would captain america even let himself be subjected to that bull****

Have you even read the other posts? Whether you agree or not with the idea, the USO shows were very important to our nation and its was more than a "song and dance" show.

the USO shows were/are important to our military

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

the USO shows were/are important to our military

Yeah. Like I said, whether you like the plot point or not, the USO shows were anything but Bull****. Those shows helped fund the US army for World War II.

 

[roach]

The USO shows are still important...Helped get thru a rough patch during Iraqi Freedom...Roger Clemens and Drew Carey came out

 

[StarvingArtist]

Its not embarrassing. But think about it from the GA point of view. They're going to want explanation to why Captain America's fighting in the costume. I know some other heroes didn't need explanation, one, other superheroes didn't fight in a historic period war, and two, does anyone remember how that went in the 1990s film. If you don't, allow me to have the Nostalgia Critic remind you. Fast-Forward the video to 5:00

[YT]ZYkpjciDLWk[/YT]

And when you see that, watch the whole video cause its pretty hilarious.

Hah, I saw the movie years ago. It's hilarious, gotta love the rubber ears right?

I'm not arguing against having an explanation for Cap's costume, nor am I arguing against updating it.

He's more than an arms weapon. He's human but he's also a project to the government, and they want to make more of this "project" which becomes harder after the scientist is killed. The last thing they need is Steve going out to war without ever finding out the data to create another super soldier again.

If you're trying to create more super-soldiers, you wouldn't want to take any chances at all especially when you have to fully recreate the SSS.

Fair enough, but seriously....the USO? I have a hard time believing anyone would be able to convince any man let alone Steve Rogers, who having just put his life on the line for science and country that the USO would be the best place to serve. Especially if it meant performing in song and dance numbers and Johnston has described. I just don't buy it.

Have you even read the other posts? Whether you agree or not with the idea, the USO shows were very important to our nation and its was more than a "song and dance" show.

I haven't read any of the other posts. I'm sure the USO shows were very important. But I'm going off of what the director has been saying. The bottom line is Cap undergoes a risky, painful procedure in order to kick Nazi ass. Good luck convincing someone who does that to perform for the USO wearing red, white, and blue spandex.

I say update the suit, stick with plausible and simple for the explanation, and keep the movie a WWII adventure story that gives Captain America a little more integrity.

 

[Turtles]

Why would the US Government put Steve in a costume:

1) During his reign Alexander the Great dressed some of his soldiers in armor to make them seem 7-8 ft tall. It demoralized his enemies as they were afraid to battle giants.
2) Vlad Tepes would impale his enemies in hideous ways which he ended up getting known as Vlad the Impaler. His infamy rose to the point that people thought he was avampire and wouldnt fight against him...inspiring Bram Stoker to make him Dracula
3) In fuedal Japan the Samurai would rid into battle with demon masks on which would demoralize their enemies
4) In WW1 Manfred von Richthofen painted his plane a bright color red and became known as the Red Baron. He is documented as having more kills than any other pilot in WW1 and many times it was against superior numbers and superior aircraft

there are many more.....

Yeah, but you're forgetting one very important thing: the first three examples you listed are actually scary. Demons are scary, giants are scary, impaling people on stakes is scary. But is a red, white, and blue costume scary? Hell no. There is nothing overtly scary about Cap's costume. And then there is the fact that, hundred of years ago, people were dumb enough to believe that stuff like demon masks were the real deal.

You can't just slap your flags colors onto a costume and expect people to be scared of it. I mean, are you scared of every guy you see walking around in red, white, and blue? Probably not, because red, white, and blue aren't scary in and of themselves.

I think the closest you came to providing a good example would be number 4, the Red Baron. But even then, I don't think it was the red plane that people were scared of. It was the Red Baron's skill that people were afraid of. If the Red Baron had been a mediocre pilot, then all the paint in the world couldn't make people scared of him.

The red paint just made it obvious the Red Baron was there, and knowing he was there would be what scared people. The paint was just the equivalent of a huge nametag, nothing more. The same can be said for Cap's costume.

Could the Stark Expo be part of the USO? I suppose the chances are quite likely.

Interesting idea. So maybe Cap won't be in a multitude of USO shows, he'll just be in one, or something like one, at the Stark Expo? If the expo is supposed to showcase new technology or whatever, wouldn't a super soldier belong there anyway?

On a side note, what if the USO is just a "one more time" type deal? Steve keeps asking when he is going to stop doing shows and fight, and the government is always like "do one more show, make us some more money, and we'll let you fight."

Steve keeps doing the shows with the belief that they will be his last (because I'm sure, if he loves his country as much as he says he does, and he's still the naive rookie, he'll believe his superiors until hell freezes over), but the government keeps dragging their heels so he ends up doing more and more shows until be finally snaps and goes AWOL. Just a thought.

To be fair the death of Bruce Wayne's parents is integral to the character..its why he goes out every night in a Bat suit...the USO is not integral to the Cap story.

The USO isn't an intergral part of Cap's story IN THE COMICS, but this isn't the comics, now is it? It's a movie based on the comics, and it can add or subtract elements at any time.

 

[Webhead2006]

yea it should be fun and interesting to see how it all shapes up in the film, and like rage said its a good tool to get some character development/drama going for steve. Then also to have a little fun to with getting the kirby costume, maybe some historical figures too and all that. Hopefully it all comes out to be a good thing for the film.

 

[Dragon]

Its not embarrassing. But think about it from the GA point of view. They're going to want explanation to why Captain America's fighting in the costume.

No they won't. Superman '78- big hit. Batman '89, Spider-Man, Watchmen- none of them gave more than a cursory explanation of why they were in costume, and the audience didn't care a lick. If the movie works the audience is accepting of characters in costume in a superhero movie.

I know some other heroes didn't need explanation, one, other superheroes didn't fight in a historic period war, and two, does anyone remember how that went in the 1990s film. If you don't, allow me to have the Nostalgia Critic remind you. Fast-Forward the video to 5:00

And when you see that, watch the whole video cause its pretty hilarious.

The fact that he was in costume in the '91 film wasn't the problem. In fact he wasn't in costume for most of the movie. It was that it was a BAD MOVIE.

What difference does it make that they're in a historic period? If anything it was more prevalent back in the 30's and 40's. Let's remember that this is where superheroes in costume got their start, and it was based on athletes wearing tights and so forth. Boxers, gymnasts etc. used to wear tights. And to go back further, athletes competed nude.

Captain America wears his uniform to make his style of combat easier. You couldn't move as freely in standard gear for soldiers. not to mention it offers protection. Simple explanation. Doesn't need him to be on a stage singing and dancing.

He's more than an arms weapon. He's human but he's also a project to the government, and they want to make more of this "project" which becomes harder after the scientist is killed. The last thing they need is Steve going out to war without ever finding out the data to create another super soldier again.

If you're trying to create more super-soldiers, you wouldn't want to take any chances at all especially when you have to fully recreate the SSS.

Okay. This is pointless. The story hinges on their not being able to make more super soldiers. Beating around the bush about it is a waste of screen time.

A simple scene of them explaining:

A. The serum can't be synthesized from Steve's blood
or
B. They synthesize the serum, but it's lethal to every test subject but Steve,

will suffice.

It's the equivalent of having Bruce Wayne's parents linger in comas for a half hour before they die, and Bruce waiting until then to swear his war on crime. This means that other important story points will lose valuable screen time.

Have you even read the other posts? Whether you agree or not with the idea, the USO shows were very important to our nation and its was more than a "song and dance" show.

It's not a point of how important the USO is to our nation. It's how important putting Cap on the stage is to the story.

 

[Dragon]

True, the USO is not... but his desire to step up to the plate and do the right thing for America in its time of need is. He wanted to go to war (like every other red blooded american after Pearl Harbor) but was unable to because of his frailness. He RISKS his life in an experimental scientific program... so he can go to war... And they still don't let him... that does play into the integral elements of who (and why) Captain America is.

But not the USO part. His being willing to first, risk his life going to war period, and then going a step further in participating in the Super Soldier project is enough. His being placed in the USO does nothing to further develop Cap's character since we already know that he's prepared to die for his country.

Screen time needs to be devoted to NEW challenges that he'll face. Things he hadn't counted on, such as the Red Skull, death rays, a teen-side kick, a romance with an underground soldier girl, encounters with other costumed operatives, butting heads with his own government, etc.

So adding in the USO and having it as a reason that he is again not permitted to go to war... really amps up the frustration level of Steve and reinforces that original longing to go to war and fight the good fight.

But it wouldn't amp things up as much as his facing real challenges like receving combat orders he can't abide by, like those that would sacrifice innocent lives. Cap must face challenges and frustrations in his endeavors. But you still have to choose which work and which don't. You can have him deal with life or death challenges or you can have him struggling over an in-grown toenail.

I think the USO idea makes all kinds of sense. We get the Kirby costume, we get the angst and character development and as a neat side note... maybe some historical cameos.

But you get all of those things without the USO plot point.

 

[roach]

Yeah, but you're forgetting one very important thing: the first three examples you listed are actually scary. Demons are scary, giants are scary, impaling people on stakes is scary. But is a red, white, and blue costume scary? Hell no. There is nothing overtly scary about Cap's costume. And then there is the fact that, hundred of years ago, people were dumb enough to believe that stuff like demon masks were the real deal.

You can't just slap your flags colors onto a costume and expect people to be scared of it. I mean, are you scared of every guy you see walking around in red, white, and blue? Probably not, because red, white, and blue aren't scary in and of themselves.

I think the closest you came to providing a good example would be number 4, the Red Baron. But even then, I don't think it was the red plane that people were scared of. It was the Red Baron's skill that people were afraid of. If the Red Baron had been a mediocre pilot, then all the paint in the world couldn't make people scared of him.

The red paint just made it obvious the Red Baron was there, and knowing he was there would be what scared people. The paint was just the equivalent of a huge nametag, nothing more. The same can be said for Cap's costume.

Psychological warfare is more than scaring your enemies. The Red Baron being a good pilot coupled with the red plane made him something to be feared...and a motivator for his fellow pilots. Imagine how invincible a pilot would feel flying into battle with the Red Baron.
Now take into account that Captain America may not seem scary to you but would seem scary to soldiers fighting america...as he seems to never lose. They may laugh at him at first until his exploits spread among the Nazi soldiers. His name becomes legend.

 

[afan]

No one is arguing that the USO shows were important to the war effort in WWII. There is no debate. The only relevant discussion is......... will the USO be important to the development of Captain America?

Now the costume angle aside......the oft quoted rationale is to further frustrate Steve Rogers.

Some one explain for me.....How does that frustration enhance the character? Do we really want a disgruntled Cap? It certainly makes the US government and or the Army look incompetent, and one or both would become the focus for Rogers' resentment; is that desirable? Should we showcase the command of WWII as imcompetent bumblers and develop a Cap who would most certainly regard them as such? Or would one argue that the decision to put Captain America in a USO show is wise, and get's the most value towards the effort of winning WWII.

Again the discussion isn't against the import of the USO, it's about the import of the USO to the development of the Rogers/Captain America character.

 

[roach]

No one is arguing that the USO shows are important to the war effort in WWII. There is no debate. The only relevant discussion is......... will the USO be important to the development of Captain America?

Now the costume angle aside......the oft quoted rationale is to further frustrate Steve Rogers.
Some one explain for me.....How does that frustration enhance the character? Do we really want a disgruntled Cap? It certainly makes the US government and or the Army look incompetent, and one or both would become the focus for Rogers' resentment; is that desirable at all. Should we showcase the command of WWII as imcompetent bumblers and develop a Cap who would most certainly regard them as such. Or would one argue that the decision to put Captain America in a USO show is wise, and get's the most value to the effort of winning WWII?

Again the discussion isn't against the import of the USO, it's about the import of the USO to the development of the Rogers/Captain America character.

and this is what I am afraid of...that this movie becomes an anti military or anti US govenment rant.

 

[Dragon]

Going back to the general audience thing- actually if you ask the average person what a superhero is, they'll say its someone in a costume fighting crime or whatever, even though the wearing of a costume and beating criminals up is not heroic in and of itself. So anyone arguing that the audience needs an explanation for Cap's suit is way off base.

 

[Rage]

The Marvel Movieverse (so far) seems very close to our own. Superheroes don't seem to be the norm (as evidenced by Nick Fury asking Stark, "Do you think you're the only one out there with super powers" or something similar) So it stands to reason that the rest of the world really doesn't know that superhumans (like Cap) exist or ever did.

I think that the USO angle makes him seem more like a character to the public than an actual historical figure. So the people of 1944 would think that Captain America is nothing more than propoganda. Being in the USO helps that point out. But only certain people in the Military (like anyone who was on the field of battle with him) would know that Captain America was a true hero. It would be like an urban legend. People would say that Cap was an entertainer and propaganda tool and someone would pipe up and say they were there and he took down 4 Panzers while the entire 1st battalion was pinned down... or I saw him take out 2 dozen Nazi SS in under a minute...etc...

But if it is common knowledge that there are Superheroes out there... then Stark wouldn't have been so special and people wouldn't have been so freaked out by Hulk and Abominations fight in NYC... It would be old hat. "Remember when Cap and the Atlantean Prince took out those Nazi sea creatures?... Oh the good ole days."

Cap (IMO) needs to be somewhat secretive for the current movieverse to make sense... and the USO angle makes sense to me because it makes him look like a fictional character or propaganda and not an actual Super Soldier (to the general public in 1944)

And while you can do the movie without the USO... that angle, plus the costume idea and the frustration of not being in battle... that all makes sense to me.

And as far as the government being stupid putting him in the USO... The government could sell more war bonds and fund the war with war heroes out in the public eye pushing the need... They took Medal of Honour winners out of combat and brought them back to the US to sell war bonds because they could save more lives that way than being on the battlefeild...maybe that is what they are thinking with Cap??

 

[afan]

The Marvel Movieverse (so far) seems very close to our own. Superheroes don't seem to be the norm (as evidenced by Nick Fury asking Stark, "Do you think you're the only one out there with super powers" or something similar) So it stands to reason that the rest of the world really doesn't know that superhumans (like Cap) exist or ever did.

Interesting take on the scene, but I didn't read it that way. I thought it was Nick Fury admonishing Stark for his behaviour; boasting to the world that he(Stark) is Iron Man, instead of reading the speech prepared to explain Iron Man to the press.

The quote is; "I am Iron Man..... You think you're the only super-hero in the world. Mr Stark you've become part of a bigger universe; you just don't know it yet." It's more like he's lecturing him on how to behave now that he has joined the super-hero brotherhood as Iron Man.

I think that the USO angle makes him seem more like a character to the public than an actual historical figure. So the people of 1944 would think that Captain America is nothing more than propoganda. Being in the USO helps that point out. But only certain people in the Military (like anyone who was on the field of battle with him) would know that Captain America was a true hero. It would be like an urban legend. People would say that Cap was an entertainer and propaganda tool and someone would pipe up and say they were there and he took down 4 Panzers while the entire 1st battalion was pinned down... or I saw him take out 2 dozen Nazi SS in under a minute...etc...

Wouldn't this call for extensive screen time for the USO angle and a starring role for the stage personna of Captain America rather than the brief in the background performer scenario most support.

But if it is common knowledge that there are Superheroes out there... then Stark wouldn't have been so special and people wouldn't have been so freaked out by Hulk and Abominations fight in NYC... It would be old hat. "Remember when Cap and the Atlantean Prince took out those Nazi sea creatures?... Oh the good ole days."

Thought The Hulk was common knowledge. Keep in mind that knowledge of The Hulk wouldn't mean that being an eyewitness to him wouldn't freak people out.

 

[Webhead2006]

that is probably how it will go.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

No they won't. Superman '78- big hit. Batman '89, Spider-Man, Watchmen- none of them gave more than a cursory explanation of why they were in costume, and the audience didn't care a lick. If the movie works the audience is accepting of characters in costume in a superhero movie.

Like I said before, Captain America certainly is a separate case as none of those characters were going to war. And before you say Watchmen, the Comedian's outfit just didn't look as outrageous as Captain America.

They did give an explanation for Spiderman.

The fact that he was in costume in the '91 film wasn't the problem. In fact he wasn't in costume for most of the movie. It was that it was a BAD MOVIE.

And him just abruptly being in the costume was just one of the many reasons. The Nostalgia Critic video I posted above proves how bad an idea it would be to just put him in the CA unifrom.

What difference does it make that they're in a historic period? If anything it was more prevalent back in the 30's and 40's. Let's remember that this is where superheroes in costume got their start, and it was based on athletes wearing tights and so forth. Boxers, gymnasts etc. used to wear tights. And to go back further, athletes competed nude.

Captain America wears his uniform to make his style of combat easier. You couldn't move as freely in standard gear for soldiers. not to mention it offers protection. Simple explanation. Doesn't need him to be on a stage singing and dancing.

The problem isn't the quality of the costume. Its the color of the costume. They could've just put him in a traditional army uniform, or put him in a uniform that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, or like the Nostalgia Critic said, he would be a human bullseye. The USO scene perfectly puts him into war with the Kirby costume.

Okay. This is pointless. The story hinges on their not being able to make more super soldiers. Beating around the bush about it is a waste of screen time.

A simple scene of them explaining:

A. The serum can't be synthesized from Steve's blood
or
B. They synthesize the serum, but it's lethal to every test subject but Steve,

will suffice.

It's the equivalent of having Bruce Wayne's parents linger in comas for a half hour before they die, and Bruce waiting until then to swear his war on crime. This means that other important story points will lose valuable screen time.

A and B would be good, but one problem. You're forgetting about the Incredible Hulk in which they did eventually get a copy of the SSS and created it again. How did they do? It would be great to link this into the Cap film. And it doesn't hinge on them not being able to create super soldiers. I don't think the government would say "Hey, we lost the SSS formula. Its okay we already have a super soldier." They're gonna want more. They want a sure thing, which is an army of super-soldiers.

I heavily doubt that USO angle will be very long. The Bruce Wayne comparison isn't a good comparison either. I compare it rather to the scenes in Iron Man in which Tony is improving the suit and testing his suit out, which was entertaining and gave us that sense of anticipation for when he first fights in the Iron Man Suit. Its like that. Its another detour, but it would be entertaining to see celebrity cameos and see what Cap can do before he goes off into war.

Believe me when I say I hope he doesn't sing and dance too haha, but rather showing his athletic moves while entertaining the crowd. That would be more fitting and it would give a bigger sense of anticipation before goes AWOL to fight in the war.

It's not a point of how important the USO is to our nation. It's how important putting Cap on the stage is to the story.

When I said that, I wasn't commenting on earlier post when the USO was called a bull**** show.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

and this is what I am afraid of...that this movie becomes an anti military or anti US govenment rant.

I was thinking about it, and I don't think it will end up like that. So he goes AWOL to save a friend, he impresses on the battlefield, and the government won't charge him or anything because he's kicking ass on the battlefield. In fact they would reward him with the round indestructible shield. As long is it isn't really forced or implied, it won't become anything like that.

I can easily see him easily being in war 20-30 minutes into the film, which would easily give another 1 and a half/hour and 45 minutes of exposition. Plenty of time to set up the rest of the film.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

and this is what I am afraid of...that this movie becomes an anti military or anti US govenment rant.

I'm worried about this, too.

If Cap needs to go AWOL, then it means his commanding officers are going to be obstacles. I don't like the idea of demonizing any of our troops, especially when there were plenty of real villains in WWII.

Hopefully the movie can pull this off tastefully.

 

[Dragon]

Like I said before, Captain America certainly is a separate case as none of those characters were going to war. And before you say Watchmen, the Comedian's outfit just didn't look as outrageous as Captain America.

Really? in the beginning of the film The Comedian literally wore a clown suit. I'd say that was a helluva lot more outrageous than Cap's. And what does going to war have to do with anything? If anything the war angle makes the explanation even easier. Cap's suit is for protection and propaganda. If anything, it would be beneficial for all US soldiers to have a suit of that material. But it's obviously cost prohibitive.

They did give an explanation for Spiderman.

Not at all. If you're referring to the wrestling thing, Peter made his coxtume long after he'd walked away from wrestling.

And him just abruptly being in the costume was just one of the many reasons. The Nostalgia Critic video I posted above proves how bad an idea it would be to just put him in the CA unifrom.

No it wasn't. In fact that was one of the few good moments. The video you posted is an example of the silliness people throw around to get laughs. The "critic" clearly both doesn't like Captain america or comic book movies much at all. And consdiering the guy is basically another dumbass looking for attention and probably hasn't offered much to postertiy himself, I don't put too much weight on his opinion. If a film is bad- then EVERYTHING in the film is bad, which isn't true. Similar premises have been presented in good films without a peep from anyone. Why does Iron Man wear a suit of red & gold? For nothing other than style. But that's apparently okay. Cap appeared in uniform, but the reasoning was also explained, albeit too narrow a view. Merely saying the scientist liked Red, White & Blue wasn't enough. If they'd explained Cap's propaganda usage that would've explained the government sanctioning of it.

The problem isn't the quality of the costume. Its the color of the costume. They could've just put him in a traditional army uniform, or put him in a uniform that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, or like the Nostalgia Critic said, he would be a human bullseye. The USO scene perfectly puts him into war with the Kirby costume.

Well, since he still winds up in the costume, he'll still be a human bullseye. So is Spider-Man. So is Ironman. The USO plot doesn't change this. So what's the point, exactly? But Cap isn't a human bullseye, because he's obviously a pretty effective fighter. And his shield- the indestructible one- is the ACTUAL bullseye. Which is also where he wants to draw the fire.

A and B would be good, but one problem. You're forgetting about the Incredible Hulk in which they did eventually get a copy of the SSS and created it again. How did they do? It would be great to link this into the Cap film.

Okay- first off- The Hulk coming from the super soldier formula is a retcon. A pretty silly one too, IMO. A creature of the Hulk's power can't come from a test tube. His original origin of the gamma bomb is far more appropriate. Second- obviously the Hulk does not represent a desirable application of the Super Soldier Serum. And The Hulk also was created decades later, wherein new technolgies would have developed, not to mention there being the singular genius of Bruce Banner being involved, which they didn't have during WW2.

And it doesn't hinge on them not being able to create super soldiers. I don't think the government would say "Hey, we lost the SSS formula. Its okay we already have a super soldier." They're gonna want more. They want a sure thing, which is an army of super-soldiers.

Of course they'd want more. But regardless- they can't make more. That's the story of Captain America. That's why Steve Rogers becomes Captain America rather than Super Soldier 00001.

I heavily doubt that USO angle will be very long. The Bruce Wayne comparison isn't a good comparison either. I compare it rather to the scenes in Iron Man in which Tony is improving the suit and testing his suit out, which was entertaining and gave us that sense of anticipation for when he first fights in the Iron Man Suit. Its like that. Its another detour, but it would be entertaining to see celebrity cameos and see what Cap can do before he goes off into war.

No- because the scenes comparable to those in Iron Man would involve them testing and training Steve, which would be great. Something in Iron Man that would compare to the USO thing would be showing Tony going to expos trying to sell people on financing his Armor technology. Having dancing girls and so forth.

Believe me when I say I hope he doesn't sing and dance too haha, but rather showing his athletic moves while entertaining the crowd. That would be more fitting and it would give a bigger sense of anticipation before goes AWOL to fight in the war.

But that's not what Johnston has said.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Really? in the beginning of the film The Comedian literally wore a clown suit. I'd say that was a helluva lot more outrageous than Cap's. And what does going to war have to do with anything? If anything the war angle makes the explanation even easier. Cap's suit is for protection and propaganda. If anything, it would be beneficial for all US soldiers to have a suit of that material. But it's obviously cost prohibitive.

I'm talking about The Comedian's costume during the Vietnam war.

Not at all. If you're referring to the wrestling thing, Peter made his coxtume long after he'd walked away from wrestling.

Okay so Spiderman's costume didn't have an extensive origin, but he did have his legit reasons in the film and it didn't just pop out of nowhere.

No it wasn't. In fact that was one of the few good moments. The video you posted is an example of the silliness people throw around to get laughs. The "critic" clearly both doesn't like Captain america or comic book movies much at all. And consdiering the guy is basically another dumbass looking for attention and probably hasn't offered much to postertiy himself, I don't put too much weight on his opinion. If a film is bad- then EVERYTHING in the film is bad, which isn't true. Similar premises have been presented in good films without a peep from anyone. Why does Iron Man wear a suit of red & gold? For nothing other than style. But that's apparently okay. Cap appeared in uniform, but the reasoning was also explained, albeit too narrow a view. Merely saying the scientist liked Red, White & Blue wasn't enough. If they'd explained Cap's propaganda usage that would've explained the government sanctioning of it.

Like a USO show?

Nah but I like NC's videos and he's pretty smart when it comes to films. But this could potential (note: potentially, not exactly) be the reaction of the some of the GA, but like you said it was also for laughs too.

Also the NC loves comic book films as some of his most favorite comic books films are Batman 89', The Dark Knight, and Superman.

Well, since he still winds up in the costume, he'll still be a human bullseye. So is Spider-Man. So is Ironman. The USO plot doesn't change this. So what's the point, exactly? But Cap isn't a human bullseye, because he's obviously a pretty effective fighter. And his shield- the indestructible one- is the ACTUAL bullseye. Which is also where he wants to draw the fire.

There is a huge difference to fighting crime and fighting in a war. Some people don't see a point to propaganda on the battlefield. Its efficient, but why? The USO idea eases the transition of the suit the battlefield while also seeing how important propaganda would be on the battlefield.

Okay- first off- The Hulk coming from the super soldier formula is a retcon. A pretty silly one too, IMO. A creature of the Hulk's power can't come from a test tube. His original origin of the gamma bomb is far more appropriate. Second- obviously the Hulk does not represent a desirable application of the Super Soldier Serum. And The Hulk also was created decades later, wherein new technolgies would have developed, not to mention there being the singular genius of Bruce Banner being involved, which they didn't have during WW2.

I'm not talking about Hulk. I'm talking about Abomination. Also, Banner was testing off previous versions of the SSS formula, and it had to come from somewhere.

Of course they'd want more. But regardless- they can't make more. That's the story of Captain America. That's why Steve Rogers becomes Captain America rather than Super Soldier 00001.

But the government would not just give up. Its not like they would be successful at creating another Super Soldier anyway.

No- because the scenes comparable to those in Iron Man would involve them testing and training Steve, which would be great. Something in Iron Man that would compare to the USO thing would be showing Tony going to expos trying to sell people on financing his Armor technology. Having dancing girls and so forth.

No, I'm not talking about from a narrative standpoint, but from a structural standpoint as in the USO scene would be precursor to Cap's introduction to the battlefield. Plus its shifts the tone to a more lighthearted and possibly humorous tone before shifting back to a more serious film like Iron Man did when there Jericho missiles attacking that village. In fact I think both the the testing of his suit, and that scene are comparable.

But that's not what Johnston has said.

Why so cynical? I just agreed with you that there shouldn't be singing and dancing.

 

[Rage]

Interesting take on the scene, but I didn't read it that way. I thought it was Nick Fury admonishing Stark for his behaviour; boasting to the world that he(Stark) is Iron Man, instead of reading the speech prepared to explain Iron Man to the press.

The quote is; "I am Iron Man..... You think you're the only super-hero in the world. Mr Stark you've become part of a bigger universe; you just don't know it yet." It's more like he's lecturing him on how to behave now that he has joined the super-hero brotherhood as Iron Man.

I didn't get that at all... I got that Stark came out and pronounced himself Ironman... and Nick Fury came to him and put him in his place. If Superheroes were all over the place, I doubt that Fury would say "you just don't know it yet." That implies to me that Tony is the first one that the public knows about.

Wouldn't this call for extensive screen time for the USO angle and a starring role for the stage personna of Captain America rather than the brief in the background performer scenario most support.

Not at all. You can set up the fact that the Captain America character already exists in a scene early one where Steve watches a news reel before a movie and they show Captain America (an actor in costume) visiting the troops in the Pacific... or you can show Steve looking at a Cap comic in the store and making a comment about the art or something... It doesn't take long to show the character already exists and is fictional.

Thought The Hulk was common knowledge. Keep in mind that knowledge of The Hulk wouldn't mean that being an eyewitness to him wouldn't freak people out.

if the Hulk were "common knowledge" then the news people and the eyewitnesses who were on camera would have called him the Hulk... but they called him "a hulk" (I think) That and the Fury comment lead me to believe that Super Heroes have yet to come out of the closet in the Marvel Movieverse... so to have Cap be out and proud way back in the 40s doesn't fit UNLESS... they don't ever say he's more than an average American or they make him an urban legend.