First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[Infinity9999x]

But Cap's role was never to fight an entire army. It isn't like they'd place him atop a hill to take on all comers by his lonesome.

Cap's missions would be covert. He, simply by being alone could hit the enemy where they weren't looking.

Not to mention, that in his training they would place him in battle simulations against increasing numbers of soldiers as they'd want to know the limits of his abilities. So, while they wouldn't want him to have to battle an army, they'd know that he was certainly capable of defeating large numbers of enemy combatants.

And let's also be clear- even if they managed to replicate the super soldier formula- it's highly unlikely that the army would be able to sustain more than a platoon. The difficulty of finding suitable subjects, expense of caring for them
(It isn't like they could allow super soldiers to live in the suburbs after their military stint was over). the security risks (suppose one got captured and was made a test subject for the enemy) would mean that even under the best of circumstances, the super soldiers would only serve as covert operatives, and certainly not be fighting as a unit (imagine if they were all killed at once) So even they wouldn't be fighting the entire army.

Another thing to note- the army, in creating a mass of super soldiers would be in fact, creating the very Master Race that the Nazis were aspiring to create- and so would risk perpetuating the same problem. It would be very possible that the super soldiers could rebel, believing themselves to actually be superior and deserving to be in control. So that's another reason the army would want to keep their numbers small.

The original plan of the SS project was to create an army of super soldiers, at least that what I've always been lead to believe. So Cap wasn't supposed to fight alone to begin with. This is what causes the hesitation for them to put him into action.

Also, I think it would work if they show us scenes of Cap being put into small battles the government knows we'll win. Small-risk situations (as small risk as war can be) where Cap isn't really allowed to do much, but it looks good because "Captain America" got us another win. Even if he wasn't allowed to do anything.

And I don't know why you think the cost of housing the soldiers after the war would be too much. The soldiers would likely only be known by the men they fought with. After the war the gov't would either relocate them or incorporate them into the government as super spies. Not a big deal at all.

As I said, I'm pretty sure the entire purpose of the SS project was to create an army of super soldiers, not just one.

 

[Webhead2006]

well we will just have to wait to see what the program will be for in the film, and how they do handle why steve is picked, and if there is or isnt any other test subjects and all that. Then also see how/why the whole uso thing fits in.

 

[Dragon]

Thinking too much into it. The main objective is to get stronger, faster, smarter soldiers... and get them in the field ASAP! And the original idea WAS to have platoons of these guys to fight in combat... not do covert missions. For someone who seems to take a hardline stance on wanting to stick to cannon... you are going off reservation on this one. While it makes sense... its not what the plan was.

No it wasn't. Point to anything in the source material that suggests they were looking to create an army of super soldiers the size of the regular army.

It couldn't be. Wouldn't be possible. It was already expensive and challenging enough regulating the regular army. Many soldiers turned out to be unfit, defied orders were drunks, dopers or were plain old jerks.

They could only use the cream of the crop in terms of mental and psychological fitness for the super soldier program. And finding them would be very, very difficult. They'd have to be sure that they could handle suddenly being endowed with such power. That they could be trusted and not sell out the secrets for a quick profit.

And again- the expense. They'd have to be kept in optimimum living conditions. Be fed the best food etc. Cap's much debated suit would cost ALOT of money. And it's doubtful they'd have many vibranium-adamantium shields to go around.

Super soldiers would have to give up having a regular life. Like I said, they weren't going to be letting these guys settle anywhere with anyone. The women they'd connect with would have to be investigated. They'd have to study what might happen if these guys had children.

And I never said anything about taking a hardline about sticking to canon. I'm saying use what works best, and for the most part, canon does. That's why Cap has lasted as long as he has.

As far as over-thinking, the weakness of many of these movies is that they're under-thinking when making them. In telling any story the creative folks should consider all aspects of the story, even if it won't actually reach the screen. When creating a character for example, screenwriters are taught to write biographies of not only the character, but his/her parents and even grandparents. All of this to have a thorough understandng of who the character is, even though the grandparents might never even be mentioned in the context of the story. Like I've said, i had great issues with Iron Man's lack of consideration of points even in a world as fantastic as the Marvel Universe. His chest is blown open but he's never in any real pain. He wouldn't even be able to walk for weeks at least. His armor would cost billions to create, but no one asks where the money went. Etc. Etc....

Someone watches too much Star Trek (that is a story line involving Khan that ran through the original, the second motion picture and a few episodes of Enterprise) Like I said above... the government wants to get the upper hand in combat situations and creating superhumans and the ramifications aren't even part of the equation at that point.

Actually I don't even like Star Trek and have only watched the original series. Never saw Wrath. I do remember the Khan ep- but the point is, that this isn't about trek. It's about logic. A colony of super soldiers would develop a different psyche than would a single one like Steve. There's such a thing as group mentality. Somewhere in the mix of super soldiers there would be spawned a "Khan". It's common sense, and the Army guys would have to consider this.

The Hulk was an entirely different experiment than the mutated or subpar version of the SSS that Blonsky took.

I suggest you re-watch the scene in the hangar between Ross and Blonsky. Because Ross explains that that's exactly what it is.

Again, stupid idea. Hulk = Gamma bomb, not super soldier. His power is too vast and near-godlike to come from the super soldier experiemnt. Again, under-thinking.

 

[Dragon]

The original plan of the SS project was to create an army of super soldiers, at least that what I've always been lead to believe.

So Cap wasn't supposed to fight alone to begin with. This is what causes the hesitation for them to put him into action.

Also, I think it would work if they show us scenes of Cap being put into small battles the government knows we'll win. Small-risk situations (as small risk as war can be) where Cap isn't really allowed to do much, but it looks good because "Captain America" got us another win. Even if he wasn't allowed to do anything.

And I don't know why you think the cost of housing the soldiers after the war would be too much. The soldiers would likely only be known by the men they fought with. After the war the gov't would either relocate them or incorporate them into the government as super spies. Not a big deal at all.

As I said, I'm pretty sure the entire purpose of the SS project was to create an army of super soldiers, not just one.

I never said they meant for it to be only one. I said they ended up with only one, but that they couldn't have had more than a platoon at most.

You understand, that they have technolgy available now that would make the US army essentilly invincible, and pretty much invulnerable- but the cost of such tech makes it impossible to outfit even a fraction of the soldiers with the equipment.

Now regarding the super soldier project- you'd have to imagine that every dosage of the serum would cost millions. Then consider feeding and clothing them over a lifetime. They'd be treated like sports stars. Giving them each facilities to live (I doubt they'd have them living in shacks). Facilities to train and maintain fitness. They'd be constantly testing them to see the effects of the serum over time. How they age. The effects of disease.

And it would be a risk to national security to simply let these guys roam around. Again, suppose enemy spies captured one or many. Synthesized the formula to create an even more extreme army of soldiers. An army of Abominations? These guys would have to be constantly monitored.
Sustaining even a small group of these guys would cost billions.

 

[Webhead2006]

well hopefully when we have some more details/once shooting starts. This whole uso plotline will become more clear. But right now we are probably like i said in an earlier post probably not going to agree over this point for the film. Will it work, will it fail who knows at this point in time.

 

[Maximillian]

I think the USO concept makes sense. They can't make any more super soldiers, so they gotta be careful with their only example. One part of me really wish to see an actor play Bob Hope on that USO show.

 

[Turtles]

No it wasn't. Point to anything in the source material that suggests they were looking to create an army of super soldiers the size of the regular army.

It couldn't be. Wouldn't be possible. It was already expensive and challenging enough regulating the regular army. Many soldiers turned out to be unfit, defied orders were drunks, dopers or were plain old jerks.

They could only use the cream of the crop in terms of mental and psychological fitness for the super soldier program. And finding them would be very, very difficult. They'd have to be sure that they could handle suddenly being endowed with such power. That they could be trusted and not sell out the secrets for a quick profit.

And again- the expense. They'd have to be kept in optimimum living conditions. Be fed the best food etc. Cap's much debated suit would cost ALOT of money. And it's doubtful they'd have many vibranium-adamantium shields to go around.

Super soldiers would have to give up having a regular life. Like I said, they weren't going to be letting these guys settle anywhere with anyone. The women they'd connect with would have to be investigated. They'd have to study what might happen if these guys had children.

And I never said anything about taking a hardline about sticking to canon. I'm saying use what works best, and for the most part, canon does. That's why Cap has lasted as long as he has.

As far as over-thinking, the weakness of many of these movies is that they're under-thinking when making them. In telling any story the creative folks should consider all aspects of the story, even if it won't actually reach the screen. When creating a character for example, screenwriters are taught to write biographies of not only the character, but his/her parents and even grandparents. All of this to have a thorough understandng of who the character is, even though the grandparents might never even be mentioned in the context of the story. Like I've said, i had great issues with Iron Man's lack of consideration of points even in a world as fantastic as the Marvel Universe. His chest is blown open but he's never in any real pain. He wouldn't even be able to walk for weeks at least. His armor would cost billions to create, but no one asks where the money went. Etc. Etc.... .

I think it goes without saying that the military wanted to create more than one super solider. They might not have wanted everyone to be super soldier, but they definitely wanted more than one to be a super soldier. If they created more than one nuclear bomb, don't you think they'd create more than one super soldier?

And a whole platoon of super soldiers wouldn't be too expensive for one reason: supply and demand. The more there is, the less valuable it is. So, if there were more super soldiers, then the government wouldn't need to waste as many resources keeping them protected because they could just get a new one straight out of the lab. They be like the regular soldiers, and we all know how the goverment sometimes treats the regular soldiers.

Shields and special costumes wouldn't even factor into the cost because there would be no reason for them. Remember, Steve Rogers was reinvented as a superhero with a costume and fancy shield ONLY because he was one of a kind. If he weren't one of a kind, he probably never would have gotten either.

They wouldn't get the best food or shelter, they'd get what everyone else got. I think only officers get special treatment in the military, and even then there are times when they have to eat what the troops eat, and live where the troops live.

And I'm sure the military would only use it's best soldiers for the program; they wouldn't just pick guys at random and hope none of them would abuse the power. You don't see the bad soldiers getting promoted, so what makes you think they'd get a serum to make them super strong and fast? A soldier would have to prove himself before he could become a super soldier, the same way it is with today's special forces. And it's not like you hear about the military only be able to find one or two good candidates for the marines, right?

Super soldiers probably wouldn't be any different than the other people with sensitive knowledge/abilities that the government has handled before. CIA and FBI agents, people who worked on nuclear bombs, high ranking military officers, etc., the government has been taking care of these people for years. And, you know what, I bet all those people live normal lives. It's not like they have to live under constant government supervision, or they get assassinated the day they retire, if they know a government secret. (Okay, suddenly I'm seeing a superhero witness protection program, like in The Incredibles, for former super soliders. Is that weird?)

Finally, I find it hard to take your rant about "under-thinking" in comic book movies seriously when you've taken up half this thread SUPPORTING under-thinking in comic book movies. I mean, how is throwing Captain America into a costume for the simple reason of boosting troop morale, and trashing the USO idea for trying to explain something that SHOULDN'T be explained, NOT an example of under-thinking?

I suggest you re-watch the scene in the hangar between Ross and Blonsky. Because Ross explains that that's exactly what it is.

Again, stupid idea. Hulk = Gamma bomb, not super soldier. His power is too vast and near-godlike to come from the super soldier experiemnt. Again, under-thinking.

I suggest you rewatch the scene again. General Ross tells Blonsky that he dusted off the super soldier program, and had Banner begin work on it under the guise of radition resistance. Blonsky asks Ross if, at the same time, he was "trying other things." Ross admits that he was working on developing the serum for use as a weapon, and that THEY (not Erskine) CREATED (you can't create something that already existed) a very PROMISING (not successful) one.

That says to me that the government wasn't giving Blonsky a dose of the serum they had left over from 1940's, but rather a new one based at least in part off Banner's research.

So, don't go assuming that, just because the words super soldier are mentioned, the same serum is involved. The serum in TIH is clearly different, and that's why Captain America is Captain America, and not the Hulk or Abomination.

 

[Dragon]

I think it goes without saying that the military wanted to create more than one super solider. They might not have wanted everyone to be super soldier, but they definitely wanted more than one to be a super soldier. If they created more than one nuclear bomb, don't you think they'd create more than one super soldier?

Did you actually type an entire paragraph only to get back to the point I already made?

And a whole platoon of super soldiers wouldn't be too expensive for one reason: supply and demand. The more there is, the less valuable it is. So, if there were more super soldiers, then the government wouldn't need to waste as many resources keeping them protected because they could just get a new one straight out of the lab. They be like the regular soldiers, and we all know how the goverment sometimes treats the regular soldiers.

Buy one get one free with Super soldiers, right? So, you think the government would treat these guys like regular soldiers, even though they'd each be capable of defeating a regiment of regular soldiers? Yeah, that makes sense. It also makes sense that maltreatment of them would lead to disgruntled super soldiers, which isn't a very good thing. 3 or 4 of these guys could easily take control of an army base. And then some very bad things could happen. Or, as I'd said- they could sell themselves to the enemy for ALOT of money, which would also be a very bad thing. There are other scenarios as well, but I'll let you think on those for yourself.

Finally, I find it hard to take your rant about "under-thinking" in comic book movies seriously when you've taken up half this thread SUPPORTING under-thinking in comic book movies. I mean, how is throwing Captain America into a costume for the simple reason of boosting troop morale, and trashing the USO idea for trying to explain something that SHOULDN'T be explained, NOT an example of under-thinking?

No it isn't. It's not using a very ill-conceived plot point (Cap singing and dancing) to explain the obvious.

Actually the belief that you need to put Cap on-stage to explain why a superhero is in costume is under-thinking. It's lke needing to have someone be a ballet or Chinese opera performer to explain how he'd get to be a martial arts expert in a martial arts movie.

In Star Wars they give a very simple, and concise explanation for Llght Sabres. They didn't need to explain that a light sabre came from a Jedi making use of a damaged blaster's exposed energy core, which resulted in a laser stream erupting from the core. I've always said there should be an explanation for the suit. Just not that it resulted from Cap singing and dancing on-stage.

I suggest you rewatch the scene again. General Ross tells Blonsky that he dusted off the super soldier program, and had Banner begin work on it under the guise of radition resistance. Blonsky asks Ross if, at the same time, he was "trying other things." Ross admits that he was working on developing the serum for use as a weapon, and that THEY (not Erskine) CREATED (you can't create something that already existed) a very PROMISING (not successful) one.

That says to me that the government wasn't giving Blonsky a dose of the serum they had left over from 1940's, but rather a new one based at least in part off Banner's research.

So, don't go assuming that, just because the words super soldier are mentioned, the same serum is involved. The serum in TIH is clearly different, and that's why Captain America is Captain America, and not the Hulk or Abomination.

Well, I could spend time picking that exchange apart. But I won't, because regardless, this doesn't change the point that i was making to Parker-Wayne; Namely that even after decades of experimentation, the super soldier formula remains unstable and unreliable. Which is why they couldn't make more super soldiers during WW2.

 

[Turtles]

Buy one get one free with Super soldiers, right? So, you think the government would treat these guys like regular soldiers, even though they'd each be capable of defeating a regiment of regular soldiers? Yeah, that makes sense. It also makes sense that maltreatment of them would lead to disgruntled super soldiers, which isn't a very good thing. 3 or 4 of these guys could easily take control of an army base. And then some very bad things could happen. Or, as I'd said- they could sell themselves to the enemy for ALOT of money, which would also be a very bad thing. There are other scenarios as well, but I'll let you think on those for yourself.

The army only gives special treatment to officers, and their treatment of regular soldiers is downright atrocious sometimes. And yet, few soldiers defect to the enemy, go AWOL, or rebel. Why? Because soldiers join the military to protect their country, they don't join it to be pampered like celebrities.

You must have a low opinion of soldiers if you think they'd sell out their country just because they don't get special treatment. I don't see marines and navy seals threatening to defect if they don't get extra rations, more money, and bullet proof shields, do you? Soldiers aren't union workers, who will go on strike when they don't get their way.

Soldiers who defect, go AWOL, or rebel because they don't have special meals and five star housing, and better body armor than the next guy in line, aren't soldiers at all. They're mercenaries and traitors.

No it isn't. It's not using a very ill-conceived plot point (Cap singing and dancing) to explain the obvious.

Actually the belief that you need to put Cap on-stage to explain why a superhero is in costume is under-thinking. It's lke needing to have someone be a ballet or Chinese opera performer to explain how he'd get to be a martial arts expert in a martial arts movie.

Again, you're assuming ALL he is going to do is dance and sing. Whatever. You can cling to that belief until hell freezes over if it makes you feel better.

Well, I could spend time picking that exchange apart. But I won't, because regardless, this doesn't change the point that i was making to Parker-Wayne; Namely that even after decades of experimentation, the super soldier formula remains unstable and unreliable. Which is why they couldn't make more super soldiers during WW2.

Your point is wrong, because the original super soldier serum doesn't exist anymore (as far as we know, since it hasn't really been mentioned in the movies yet). The formula that is unstable and unreliable is not the original, it is a recreation of the original. Ross basically comes right out and says it in TIH. If you refuse to see that, then whatever. (As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.)

And there is no decades of experimentation. Ross said he restarted the super soldier project, which meant it was DEAD before he came along, which meant there was no experimentation going on with it between the 1940's and the present.

Finally, if the movies follow the comics, Dr. Erskine's death will be the main reason they can't make anymore super soldiers. It won't have anything to do with an unstable or unreliable formula.

 

[Figs]

Finally, if the movies follow the comics, Dr. Erskine's death will be the main reason they can't make anymore super soldiers. It won't have anything to do with an unstable or unreliable formula.

I'm not too familiar with Captain America comics. Does Dr. Erskine die in the comics?

I'm just curious because I wonder if he gets killed by the Red Skull.

 

[roach]

I'm not too familiar with Captain America comics. Does Dr. Erskine die in the comics?

I'm just curious because I wonder if he gets killed by the Red Skull.

in the comics Erskine is killed by a Nazi spy working for the Red Skull...Cap throws the spy into machinery and it electrocutes him

 

[Webhead2006]

well when all said is down i hope this will all work out great.

 

[Dragon]

Your point is wrong, because the original super soldier serum doesn't exist anymore (as far as we know, since it hasn't really been mentioned in the movies yet). The formula that is unstable and unreliable is not the original, it is a recreation of the original. Ross basically comes right out and says it in TIH. If you refuse to see that, then whatever. (As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.)

And there is no decades of experimentation. Ross said he restarted the super soldier project, which meant it was DEAD before he came along, which meant there was no experimentation going on with it between the 1940's and the present.

Finally, if the movies follow the comics, Dr. Erskine's death will be the main reason they can't make anymore super soldiers. It won't have anything to do with an unstable or unreliable formula.

Good God. Uh.. That wouldn't make my point wrong, it would make Parker-Wayne's point wrong, since our contention is based on HIS assumption that the formula in TIH is based on the formula used on Steve (although it may be- you're rather aggressive assertion that it isn't based on no hard evidence is rather out-of-left field. Ross says that what he'd "dusted-off" was based on the WW2 project. Where exactly he took it doesn't matter in the context of this discussion. And since he doesn't even mention the success of Captain America, much is missing from his exposition). My point- my ONLY point- is try though they may, they can't make more Captain Americas. So in the context of the Cap movie, it's pointless for them to waste screentime focusing on the Governmennt's squeemishness about sending Cap into battle.

As for Erskine's death that isn't the reason they can't make more Caps. They don't stop experimenting. They just fail.

Your other points, about how the military would care for super soldiers is just ridiculous and mostly reflects a lack of understanding of anything other than what goes on in comics. You say only officers receive preferential treatment. Yet it doesn't occur to you that someone placed in the Super Soldier program might automatically be given the rank of officer- ( CAPTAIN AMERICA????) not only because of the importance of the program, but because these guys would likely have to assume leadership positions on the battlefield.

The military spends like a thousand bucks on a wingnut for fgihter jets. So they'd certainly spend large amounts of money to care for super soldiers who are winning battles for them.

Since they know these guys will be getting in close proximity to the enemy they'd be developing protective gear for them even before the first Super soldier was created. I was being facetious about the shield, but they would equip these guys with their most advanced weaponry. Weaponry that would be cost prohibitive to distribute to the regular army.

Look, man- your posts are far too long and too wrong for me to mess with. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[roach]

Good God. Uh.. That wouldn't make my point wrong, it would make Parker-Wayne's point wrong, since our contention is based on HIS assumption that the formula in TIH is based on the formula used on Steve (although it may be- you're rather aggressive assertion that it isn't based on no hard evidence is rather out-of-left field. Ross says that what he'd "dusted-off" was based on the WW2 project. Where exactly he took it doesn't matter in the context of this discussion. And since he doesn't even mention the success of Captain America, much is missing from his exposition). My point- my ONLY point- is try though they may, they can't make more Captain Americas. So in the context of the Cap movie, it's pointless for them to waste screentime focusing on the Governmennt's squeemishness about sending Cap into battle.

As for Erskine's death that isn't the reason they can't make more Caps. They don't stop experimenting. They just fail.

Erskine had the formula committed to memory and when he died the formula died with him. America experimented to try to duplicate it..Infinity Formula, The Truth but were never sucessful

Your other points, about how the military would care for super soldiers is just ridiculous and mostly reflects a lack of understanding of anything other than what goes on in comics. You say only officers receive preferential treatment. Yet it doesn't occur to you that someone placed in the Super Soldier program might automatically be given the rank of officer- ( CAPTAIN AMERICA????) not only because of the importance of the program, but because these guys would likely have to assume leadership positions on the battlefield.

The military spends like a thousand bucks on a wingnut for fgihter jets. So they'd certainly spend large amounts of money to care for super soldiers who are winning battles for them.

Since they know these guys will be getting in close proximity to the enemy they'd be developing protective gear for them even before the first Super soldier was created. I was being facetious about the shield, but they would equip these guys with their most advanced weaponry. Weaponry that would be cost prohibitive to distribute to the regular army.

Look, man- your posts are far too long and too wrong for me to mess with. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Actually its cannon that the government had in place Project TESS where they were going to build robots to take out the supersoldiers if they became rebellious

 

[TheVileOne]

Just to point something out. Going by the movies, they still had serum left over after Steve Rogers in TIH.

 

[Webhead2006]

well actually if you recall its probably not the actual forumla that steve took. But probably partial sample from probably steve testing, and then new experiments to recreate the forumla over the many decades.

 

[Dragon]

Erskine had the formula committed to memory and when he died the formula died with him. America experimented to try to duplicate it..Infinity Formula, The Truth but were never sucessful

Which is what I'm saying. The super soldier program didn't die with Erskine. Only the successes.

Actually its cannon that the government had in place Project TESS where they were going to build robots to take out the supersoldiers if they became rebellious

Which creates an "Old Woman Who Swallowed s Fly" scenario. I mean, we know the record of Marvel's robotic policing units.

But even if you include this project you still get into the massive expense of having an army of super soldiers. No matter how you slice it, they'd cost a ton of money.

But realistically, the army would take care of these guys. If you buy yourself a Ferrari, you know you're going to spend more money to maintain it than if you buy a Hyundai.

 

[roach]

I imagine that if the government was prepared to make these supersoldiers they had figured out the cost...however I dont think anyone was thinking past this war...they were fighting evil and would have done anything to win...hence the atomic weapons

 

[Webhead2006]

yea totally and hopefully we have a good story for film's super solider storyline.

 

[Dragon]

I imagine that if the government was prepared to make these supersoldiers they had figured out the cost...however I dont think anyone was thinking past this war...they were fighting evil and would have done anything to win...hence the atomic weapons

Well that's debatable. They didn't hit military targets with the a-bomb. But they must've been thinking post-war if they were designing robots that would take out the super soldiers. They were certainly thinking post-war when they removed the "enemy' Nazi scientists out in order to use against our "allies" the Russians and Chinese.

And yeah, I'm sure they would have figured the cost of the super soldier prooject. Which is why I'm saying they'd know it would be enormous.
Sure, i guess they could treat them as shown in films like Universal Soldier or Soldier, but that would make our military essentially the same as that of the Third Reich.

 

[roach]

Well that's debatable. They didn't hit military targets with the a-bomb. .

Hiroshima was a city of some industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was one of several Japanese cities left deliberately untouched by American bombing, allowing a pristine environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb.


The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.