The Dark Knight Rises Pardon the insensitivity, but what if Heath was still alive?

[Ryan]

There's no doubt in my mind Joker would have had a significant part in TDKR had Heath not passed away. I think the whole Dent conspiracy would have unfolded in a far more interesting way than Bane finding a confession letter in Gordon's pocket and making a speech about it to the press.

I still believe that to this day. I'm not sure why people always think having the Joker in the third part of the trilogy would have been stale. Was there anything stale about the character in TDK? If anything it left me wanting more. Much the same way that Vader never felt stale in the original Star Wars Trilogy. Sure throw in another rogue somewhere, but I wouldn't have had a problem with Ledger headlining again.

 

[Awest66]

I still believe that to this day. I'm not sure why people always think having the Joker in the third part of the trilogy would have been stale. Was there anything stale about the character in TDK? If anything it left me wanting more. Much the same way that Vader never felt stale in the original Star Wars Trilogy. Sure throw in another rogue somewhere, but I wouldn't have had a problem with Ledger headlining again.

I disagree. As much as I loved Heath Ledger in the role, The Dark Knight was really his movie from top to bottom and in my opinion, It did everything that needed to be done with that character (not necessarily everything that could be done, but everything that needed to be done)

It does a grave disservice to the other villains of Batman's rogues gallery to keep relying on the Joker over and over.

 

[The Joker]

Why is using him in another movie a sign of reliance on him? Did bringing back the LOS in TDKR show a sign of weakness that Nolan was relying on the same villain clan from BB? If they feel there's a purpose for the character then use said character. Nolan doesn't strike me as the type of director who would use a character just because of a cool factor.

 

[Awest66]

Why is using him in another movie a sign of reliance on him?

Okay, fair enough. It's just my silly personal opinion. I've no doubt Nolan could've made another great movie featuring the Joker, I just don't think he necessarily had to. I fully agree with Shauner on the matter.

However, I will say this though. While I like TDKR, I do fully consent it's not the only way the series could've gone and It's fun to visualize What If scenarios. For example, I've always imagined the Penguin could've been a great addition to this series if they chose to go the "freak rebuilding the mob" route and Hugo Strange would've been an interesting addition as well.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I disagree. As much as I loved Heath Ledger in the role, The Dark Knight was really his movie from top to bottom and in my opinion, It did everything that needed to be done with that character (not necessarily everything that could be done, but everything that needed to be done)

It does a grave disservice to the other villains of Batman's rogues gallery to keep relying on the Joker over and over.

I feel exactly the same. I loved Ledger in TDK and if there had been more films in the series I'd like to have seen him reappear at some point, but I wanted a new 'big bad' for TDKR.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I still believe that to this day. I'm not sure why people always think having the Joker in the third part of the trilogy would have been stale. Was there anything stale about the character in TDK? If anything it left me wanting more. Much the same way that Vader never felt stale in the original Star Wars Trilogy. Sure throw in another rogue somewhere, but I wouldn't have had a problem with Ledger headlining again.

I'm with you on this. If I were Nolan, I would've structured TDKR more like TDKReturns, putting Bane in the Mutant Leader role and bringing a catatonic Joker back after Batman comes out of retirement

 

[shauner111]

I still believe that to this day. I'm not sure why people always think having the Joker in the third part of the trilogy would have been stale. Was there anything stale about the character in TDK? If anything it left me wanting more. Much the same way that Vader never felt stale in the original Star Wars Trilogy. Sure throw in another rogue somewhere, but I wouldn't have had a problem with Ledger headlining again.

Vader was there from the beginning of the saga. The entire series is about the Skywalker family legacy. The batman series that Nolan was trying to tell was not about Joker. It's not even all about Batman's battle with Joker. You don't need him in a third even though it would have been entertaining. Of course he wasn't stale in TDK, that was the first time seeing that version.

 

[shauner111]

I'm with you on this. If I were Nolan, I would've structured TDKR more like TDKReturns, putting Bane in the Mutant Leader role and bringing a catatonic Joker back after Batman comes out of retirement

But are you doing this to serve the story or are you creating a story around Joker just because you (and i) loved the character in the previous installment?

 

[DACrowe]

--Forgive the insensitivity, I have the utmost respect for Ledger--

How would the movie be different? Here's a place to discuss how the story would've changed if Heath was still alive.

I would've loved a TDKReturns-inspired Joker. He could have been in a catatonic state for those 8 years that Batman was absent, coming back when Batman returns...

Just imagine a showdown at the tunnel of love with Bale and Ledger.

TDK was amazing, but god i wish we could've gotten the final battle between Bale and Ledger

RIP Heath!

Short version is I suspect Joker would be in it because like everyone else in the world, Ledger blew Nolan away on the set of that movie. However, because Nolan does not repeat himself, I do not think we'd have gotten another traditional "showdown" between the two characters, nor do I think he'd be the main villain. I suspect Bane would still be the villain in the end, and perhaps Catwoman would still be in it, because that seemed like a Jonathan Nolan sticking point.

I think what would be removed is the League of Shadows. Maybe Joker would become Batman's "jailor" or tormentor. I don't know. No one ever will.

 

[shauner111]

I do like the idea of Bane sticking Batman in the lowest depths of Arkham Asylum with Joker. With the rest of the place...empty. But surely, Bats would be able to escape a lot easier soooo..

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Short version is I suspect Joker would be in it because like everyone else in the world, Ledger blew Nolan away on the set of that movie. However, because Nolan does not repeat himself, I do not think we'd have gotten another traditional "showdown" between the two characters, nor do I think he'd be the main villain.

I think that may well have been pretty likely - but as you say, we'll never know.

 

[Ryan]

Vader was there from the beginning of the saga. The entire series is about the Skywalker family legacy. The batman series that Nolan was trying to tell was not about Joker. It's not even all about Batman's battle with Joker. You don't need him in a third even though it would have been entertaining. Of course he wasn't stale in TDK, that was the first time seeing that version.

My point is that basically a villainous character, if done well, can be used multiple times...like Vader. Heath earned an Oscar with his performance and personally I never grew tired of the character and I don't know of many that did. Should he have been the only villain? Of course not. BB had Ras and Scarecrow, TDK had Two Face and Joker, and TDKR had Bane and Catwoman in prominent roles. I definitely would have been in line to see another Batman movie with Ledger returning as the Joker and another rogue.

 

[shauner111]

Sure but I'm just making sure people aren't just entertaining the idea of Joker for the sake of "well I enjoyed it the first time so why not see it again!?". Like Nolan and Goyer have said, this genre gets stuck with this mindset of working a story around the awesome/cool villain instead of the other way around.

 

[Rorschach2012]

But are you doing this to serve the story or are you creating a story around Joker just because you (and i) loved the character in the previous installment?

I'm not the biggest fan of TDKR.

I wish Joker would've been the overarching villain of the whole thing instead of Ra's/The League of Shadows

 

[Awest66]

I'm not the biggest fan of TDKR.

I wish Joker would've been the overarching villain of the whole thing instead of Ra's/The League of Shadows

Do you have a rough idea of what you would have done?

 

[Ryan]

Sure but I'm just making sure people aren't just entertaining the idea of Joker for the sake of "well I enjoyed it the first time so why not see it again!?". Like Nolan and Goyer have said, this genre gets stuck with this mindset of working a story around the awesome/cool villain instead of the other way around.

I think what people loved about the Joker was that it was written and performed so well. With that being said, I'm not sure its unreasonable for people wanting that character to return for those reasons.

 

[shauner111]

I know, and I would have been jumping for joy anyway. But it's not necessary to have him as the main villain twice, when you're making a trilogy and the amount of rogues you use is limited as it is. Bane represented something different, and I appreciate that more.

 

[Ryan]

I think therein lies the problem though. I'm not quite sure if a trilogy was ever planned. What we do know is that Heath's passing eliminated his Joker from appearing in the 3rd film and created 2 different camps. One wondering if Heath's Joker would have appeared in a third film had he not passed on, and the second camp thinking that it didn't make a difference as his character was not necessary to finish the story.
It's really just a matter of personal preference in the end. I think some, myself included, felt that TDKR missed the mark a bit, so we do the whole "I wonder if heath was alive" as a way of thinking that things could have turned out better. I think those that were satisfied with TDKR have less of that 'what if' syndrome. Ha, just my 2 cents. Just comes down to personal opinion in the end.

 

[The Batman]

I think there's too many great rogues in Batman's world to just write the Joker in as the antagonist for two films in a row. I don't believe for a second that Nolan would have given Joker a huge role like he had in TDK.

Yeah. Making Joker a main villain again, or letting him have a major role would've been a terrible idea, IMO.

Had Ledger lived, I'd only want to see a cameo from him at best, and that's only because TDKR is the last film in the Nolan series.

 

[BatLobster]

I think therein lies the problem though. I'm not quite sure if a trilogy was ever planned.

Actually a trilogy was originally planned by Goyer, in which Two-Face would've been the villain in the third film with Joker scarring him.

So it's more like the original idea for the trilogy was scrapped when they decided to put Harvey Dent's full arc in TDK. To me, that implicitly means they left room for a new main antagonist in the third film. That's not to say a small supporting role for Joker couldn't have happened, but I think there's no way around the fact that the third film would've featured a new rogue at the center, even if Heath had lived.

 

[Ryan]

Actually a trilogy was originally planned by Goyer, in which Two-Face would've been the villain in the third film with Joker scarring him.

So it's more like the original idea for the trilogy was scrapped when they decided to put Harvey Dent's full arc in TDK. To me, that implicitly means they left room for a new main antagonist in the third film. That's not to say a small supporting role for Joker couldn't have happened, but I think there's no way around the fact that the third film would've featured a new rogue at the center, even if Heath had lived.

I guess it depends on your definition of planned. Goyer states that a trilogy was never planned. Nolan clarifies Goyer comment by saying that discussions took place as to where sequels may go, however they were put on the back burner and instead focussed on living through each film organically to see where it would go. Eckhart commented and said that obviously the third film was set up for Ledger. I personally have no doubt that the third film would have featured a new rogue even with Ledger's inclusion. Who that rogue would have been and what the story may have been though will forever remain a mystery as Heath's untimely passing would have removed any discussions about including his Joker in the third film.

 

[BatLobster]

I guess it depends on your definition of planned. Goyer states that a trilogy was never planned. Nolan clarifies Goyer comment by saying that discussions took place as to where sequels may go, however they were put on the back burner and instead focussed on living through each film organically to see where it would go. Eckhart commented and said that obviously the third film was set up for Ledger. I personally have no doubt that the third film would have featured a new rogue even with Ledger's inclusion. Who that rogue would have been and what the story may have been though will forever remain a mystery as Heath's untimely passing would have removed any discussions about including his Joker in the third film.

Hmm, that's fair enough. I mean, Goyer did give that quote to EW back in 2005 about the sequel was going to set up Harvey Dent, and the third film was going to feature Harvey getting scarred by Joker. Maybe that was just him spitballing his own thoughts to the press. I'm sure Nolan yelled at him for that.

Personally, I think that living through each film organically proved to be the right move. If they had set definitive for parameters for a third film that necessitated the return of The Joker, they would've been in a very tough spot after Heath died. Star Wars could be in a situation like that now with Episode IX and Carrie Fisher, we'll have to see.

I still personally think the League of Shadows returning was something they always had in their back pocket. It was just too big a part of the first movie to simply ignore if you're trying to wrap things up. I always saw Bruce quote Ra's' "criminals aren't complicated" line in TDK as a subtle way of keeping that thread present. Also, fun fact- Talia is referenced on the bonus features disc of Batman Begins in the character profile of Ra's. There's a quote from Nolan too where he says the first thing he immediately knew about the third film was that he wanted to see the League of Shadows story line come back.

“Moving on to Dark Knight Rises, I knew that the League of Shadows had to come back,” he says of the secret society of assassins led by Liam Neeson’s Ra’s Al Ghul, the violent Darwinist who recruited Bruce Wayne and taught him the tricks of the stealth-warrior trade in the first film.

“I knew that we had to return to Batman Begins and those philosophical ideas of Ra’s Al Ghul, those challenges -- that all had to come back. And I also was looking for a very physical adversary because that’s something that neither Ra’s Al Ghul, the Scarecrow [Cillian Murphy] or the Joker really represented: a massive physical threat. David Goyer and I started looking through the history of the comics, and we fixed on Bane.”

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/making-dark-knight-rises-christopher-406444

My gut feeling is that even if Heath had lived, it's very likely that the story they would've developed would've been largely similar to what we got. It just would've also found a spot for The Joker too. I think his storytelling instincts, along with Jonah and Goyer's would've likely led in a similar direction anyway. And Ryan, I know you would've preferred a smaller scale third movie- you can't deny that Nolan has been on a trajectory of going for bigger and bigger scope with his films. TDK-Inception-TDKR-Interstellar...each film is bigger than the last there in terms of scale, and it's still happening now with Dunkirk which once again is going to be have a bigger majority of IMAX footage than all his films. I think it's a stretch to assume that if Heath had lived we would've gotten something that was smaller in scope than TDK. There is no doubt in my mind that Nolan would've always looked for ways to make the film visually grander and more epic in scale.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I personally have no doubt that the third film would have featured a new rogue even with Ledger's inclusion. Who that rogue would have been and what the story may have been though will forever remain a mystery as Heath's untimely passing would have removed any discussions about including his Joker in the third film.

I feel exactly the same way.

 

[Ryan]

Hmm, that's fair enough. I mean, Goyer did give that quote to EW back in 2005 about the sequel was going to set up Harvey Dent, and the third film was going to feature Harvey getting scarred by Joker. Maybe that was just him spitballing his own thoughts to the press. I'm sure Nolan yelled at him for that.

Personally, I think that living through each film organically proved to be the right move. If they had set definitive for parameters for a third film that necessitated the return of The Joker, they would've been in a very tough spot after Heath died. Star Wars could be in a situation like that now with Episode IX and Carrie Fisher, we'll have to see.

I still personally think the League of Shadows returning was something they always had in their back pocket. It was just too big a part of the first movie to simply ignore if you're trying to wrap things up. I always saw Bruce quote Ra's' "criminals aren't complicated" line in TDK as a subtle way of keeping that thread present. Also, fun fact- Talia is referenced on the bonus features disc of Batman Begins in the character profile of Ra's. There's a quote from Nolan too where he says the first thing he immediately knew about the third film was that he wanted to see the League of Shadows story line come back.



My gut feeling is that even if Heath had lived, it's very likely that the story they would've developed would've been largely similar to what we got. It just would've also found a spot for The Joker too. I think his storytelling instincts, along with Jonah and Goyer's would've likely led in a similar direction anyway. And Ryan, I know you would've preferred a smaller scale third movie- you can't deny that Nolan has been on a trajectory of going for bigger and bigger scope with his films. TDK-Inception-TDKR-Interstellar...each film is bigger than the last there in terms of scale, and it's still happening now with Dunkirk which once again is going to be have a bigger majority of IMAX footage than all his films. I think it's a stretch to assume that if Heath had lived we would've gotten something that was smaller in scope than TDK. There is no doubt in my mind that Nolan would've always looked for ways to make the film visually grander and more epic in scale.

You bring up an interesting point Batlobsterises as Nolan has been more ambitious in terms of the scale of his movie. However, I probably could argue that the Dark Knight was a much more smaller scale and intimate film than Batman Begins, especially when you consider the third act of each film. It's also curious to note that those against the redundancy of a returning Joker are ok with the recycling of the League of Shadows storyline. Sure the main villain was changed but in essence the storyline is about coming back to finish the work that Ras was doing in the first film.
Anyways, its always fun to have these 'what if' discussions. For me personally, my issues with TDKR had nothing to do with the absence of the Joker, and in fact, I thought Hardy's work as Bane is still underrated. Like Nolan, to me its always about the story and I felt TDKR missed the mark in wrapping up the trilogy for me. It's not that it was a bad movie by any stretch but I felt it just lacked something that the other 2 had. Again, just my own opinion.

 

[The Batman]

It's also curious to note that those against the redundancy of a returning Joker are ok with the recycling of the League of Shadows storyline.

Where are these people?

If it were up to me, Bane would've just been a mercenary out to break Batman and destroy his legacy.