Pardon the insensitivity, but what if Heath was still alive?

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Rorschach2012, Apr 22, 2017.

  1. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Reusing a villain in a major capacity works just fine, as the likes of Magneto and Loki have proven. Nobody would expect Joker to be the main antagonist again like TDK, but there's no doubt in my mind he'd have been a major significant presence, and the outcome of the whole Dent cover up would have had a much more compelling outcome than what TDKR offered.

    Ditto.
     
  2. shauner111 Registered

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    It would be too random if Bane was alone. Not for an ending. Maybe if it was just another episode in a long franchise that shifts from director to director..
     
  3. Ryan Registered

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    And perhaps that's my greatest gripe with TDKR. I'm also of the opinion that Bane would have been best served LOS free. But there are many people on the boards that enjoyed having the los back in the third film as a way of having the trilogy come full circle.
     
  4. Awest66 Registered

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    I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea but what would his motivation be then? Would he be an aspiring crimelord, trying to break Batman to cement his reputation or a genuine revolutionary?

    I lean more towards the former.
     
  5. Brother Jack The Penitent Man

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    Bane and Talia's League felt different enough to me to not feel like a regurgitation of Begins. Bane in particular was unique to Ra's. Whereas Ducard was all about shadowy ninjitsu and cult-ish zealotry, Bane was much more militaristic and extreme in his methods. I don't think you would've seen something like the hanging special forces members displayed on Gotham's bridge under the leadership of Ra's. I also think tying it back to Ra's and the LOS deepens the film thematically by quite a bit. Bane and Bruce become surrogate brothers with Ra's as the father; one of which is the bastard son who wanted the father's approval and couldn't get it, and the other the prodigal son who rejected the father. The idea of lineage and one's legend living on through the next generation is integral to Blake as a character and the ending of the film. You wouldn't have that if Bane was a just a mercenary that came out of the woodwork to take down Batman.
     
  6. Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

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    That's a very interesting way of looking at it.
     
  7. shauner111 Registered

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    Perfect post.
     
  8. Ryan Registered

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    I can definitely see those undertones in the film, which is why the storyline felt so forumlaic to me.
     
  9. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Go with the former. Bane in the comics is the very definition of self made man who rose from nothing to power. He survived the toughest prison on his own, educated himself, escaped, studied Batman, figured out his identity on his own, physically and mentally wore Batman down, and then broke him and took over Gotham.

    That is more compelling than completing the work of another villain.
     
  10. shauner111 Registered

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    For a Batman movie that isn't trying to end the Batman Begins/Dark Knight story? Sure.

    I think it was a smarter decision to link Bane with the league of shadows for this universe. Beginning, middle, end. With the inclusion of the LoS, it makes everything feel like it belongs to the same story rather than JUST a new story about one guy who just happened to hear about Batman's legacy and tries to take over his city. Like BrotherJack said, linking the antagonist and protagonist of the final chapter to the father figure that was Ras Al Ghul, added more depth. As far as i'm concerned we got the best of both worlds.
     
  11. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    You don't need to go back to the LOS to end the story. TDK had zilch to do with the LOS. So TDKR was not bound in any way to finish Batman's tale by going back to something that was done and dusted in BB. It wasn't like say the Goblin story in Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy where the story over arched the previous two movies and demanded a resolution in the third movie.
     
  12. Ryan Registered

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    Exactly my thinking.
     
  13. shauner111 Registered

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    Yeah, but The Dark Knight wasn't the end of the story that begun with Batman Begins. There's a reason why the new Star wars trilogy brought it back to A New Hope and the original trilogy in order to move forward AND to tie everything together. Same with the prequels which will figure into the new films whether we like it or not, because Episodes 1-3 were the beginning of that story. It doesn't mean you have to use Ras Al Ghul himself as a villain, or that Talia had to be there. But making the LoS relevant to the story was important, i think.

    Bruce, in TDKR, must rediscover himself before passing the torch forever and letting go. He rediscovers Batman (and FEAR which was a nice nod to his training). He must become that character again to defeat Bane. OK, could they have done this with a dream sequence with Ras? Yes. But my main concern would have been with Bane's motivation and having this new villain come across like a random Joker type who just comes out of nowhere and learns about Batman, tries to push his boundaries, tries to take over his city..

    It always felt like the League of shadows was unfinished business. Ras died. But all that talk about Ras being immortal. He made it sound like it was a mindset passed on from generation to generation. If Ras dies and everything falls apart within that organization, then so much for immortality. Plus merging Ducard with Ras was a huge deal in Begins. This is the guy who trained Bruce Wayne. Was a father figure to Bruce in his 20's. He learned how to become Batman through the League of Shadows before they had a major disagreement. If Bruce is learning how to be Batman again (and yes i do think the same scenario would play out if Bane broke Batman in an imaginary film that excluded Ras)...then what better way than dive back into the roots of BATMAN. Not in one line or a dream sequence either. The link between Bane and Batman was made stronger IMO because of Nolan's choice to bring the LoS back into this post-Dark Knight world. And it made Bruce's origins more important instead of acting like Heath's Joker was the single greatest thing to happen to those movies. Heath was great, make no mistake, but too many people didn't see Batman Begins and were shouting to the rooftops that Joker was the most important thing in TDK and Nolan's films. By bringing it full circle, it made a point that Rises is not only a sequel to the successful Dark Knight movie, but a 7.5 hour mini-series basically. A novel. A third act. That was the single most important thing to Nolan in making another movie. The key to that is HOW Bruce became Bats, so you can't do that by side-stepping the major involvement of Ras Al Ghul.

    There's a whole rogues gallery there and Joker didn't need to be in more than a few scenes to get the job done. Bane was the perfect choice. Even better than Joker going solo again, or Two-Face remaining alive, or another mob guy trying to run Gotham into the ground, or Riddler sending Batman puzzles. Linking Hardy's Bane to the Al Ghul family was incredible. It gave the sequel to TDK more weight. It put more eyes on the roots of this trilogy, Batman Begins. It made it clear that Bane wasn't just going to be a random dude from some country that stumbled upon Batman. That would have felt so random. It's the end of a single story not just episode #3. If Nolan announced he had hopes for this franchise to keep going past film #3, then hell yeah, i'd be into that Bane story, cuz it's a good story to tell on film or not. Yes you would still have the imagery of Bruce falling into the pit. I get why people didn't care for Talia and the League in TDKR, but for me it added a lot to the big picture.
     
  14. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    They could have tied it back to Batman Begins in a plethora of other ways that did not involve the LOS. They also could have done other things differently like Bruce go back and rediscover his fear in far more interesting ways than being left in a pit. The Star Wars trilogy never went back and dug up a story that was finished in the first movie. Those movies, like the aforementioned Spider-Man movies had an over arching story arc that made it feel very natural and organic that the story revisit something started in the first movie.

    The LOS was beaten and defeated in BB. No loose threads were left hanging with them. In fact BB made a point to move the story forward at the end by hinting the Joker and a whole new different kind of threat and era for Batman and Gotham. Contrast to TDK where Joker's actions opened a whole new can of worms with the Dent cover up, and Batman being branded a murderer.

    I don't mind the LOS being revisited, or Bane being linked to them. Wasn't perfect but it was enjoyable and capped off the trilogy. But it's a load of baloney to suggest that was the only way or best way Nolan could have finished the story. He could have done it just as well or better without the LOS being involved. If they can side step the Joker, and reduce the fall out of the Harvey Dent cover up coming out to nothing but a flowery speech from Blake to Gordon about what he did was wrong, then they can side step the unnecessary return of the LOS.
     
    #64 The Joker, Apr 29, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  15. Awest66 Registered

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    I don't think anyones arguing that. I like TDKR and I completely see your point. If the story was another "the adventure continues/installment in a series" type movie, I'd say go for it in making Bane a solo villain and dispensing with any ties to the LOS. That being said I don't think it necessarily took away anything either. Bane's motivation was a bit more personal than believing Batman represented his childhood nightmares or wanting to establish a reputation as a crime lord. Again, I wouldn't have any problem with the latter if this was another installment.

    Maybe it wasn't necessarily the best way to end the series but it was perfectly respectable.
     
    #65 Awest66, Apr 30, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017
  16. Ryan Registered

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    I think my issue is that in Goyer's words a trilogy was never planned. In Nolan's words they put everything into each film and didn't hold anything back. That he lived organically through each movie. Ditching the proposed Joker/Two face storyline for the 3rd movie and having Dent die speaks to that.
    Unlike Star Wars, where you have the consistent presence of the Empire in the original trilogy, the Dark Knight took Batman in a different direction. The League of Shadows (Empire) was dropped entirely and TDK could basically work as much as a standalone film as much as it is a sequel. I might have had a different feeling about the LOS showing up in the third film had there been some mention or even a teaser at the end of TDK, but for all intents and purposes they were never mentioned.
    Bringing them back for TDKR felt forced to me (as did the use of flashbacks). It felt like, oh now we ARE going to make this a trilogy...when that was never the initial plan. I also disagree that the film had to have the LOS to make everything come full circle like Return of the Jedi for it to make the trilogy seem complete. Movies like Se7en (a detective's final case) or Unforgiven (a gunslinger's final fight) are perfect examples of having a character finish out their career by overcoming that one last original hurdle.
    Its not that TDKR is a bad film. It just personally lacked the originality that Batman Begins and TDK brought to the table for me.
     
  17. shauner111 Registered

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    It was the plan though. Nolan himself said they originally talked about it as a 3 act structure. But as they went along, they eliminated elements that would set the next film up too much, incase they didn't get a chance to make another movie. They always had the ending in mind as well.
     
  18. Ryan Registered

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    I"d have to see that quote shauner111. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I'm going by the interview in the Dark Knight Trilogy screenplay book.
    Nolan "I can't imagine doing them as one project, the way Peter Jackson did LOTR. The only way I am able to do films is to put into each film as much as I can"
    Goyer "what was clear even when we were working out Batman Begins that you wanted to take each film one step at a time. What's remarkable to me is that it wasn't planned as a trilogy.
    Nolan "We certainly had conversations very early on about where would this story go if we were to do sequels, but we quite consciously pushed those questions to the back burner and said we don't want to save anything or hold back anything. We want to put everything into every story we're telling and then see where it goes"
     
  19. Awest66 Registered

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    I can see both sides of the argument here but I really don't feel that bringing back the LOS was a detriment to the series. I can see the point of view of those who think that way but like shauner said, I feel they differentiated themselves enough so that it didn't feel like a retread.
     
  20. shauner111 Registered

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    It was either in 'The Journey of Bruce Wayne" special feature on the Dark Knight Rises dvd/blu-ray. Or it was in the documentary for the trilogy. My guess is the dvd extra.
     
  21. BaelaTargaryen Registered

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  22. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Thank you for that, Kate Ledger.

    So sad that he never got to fulfill those plans :(
     
  23. Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

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  24. Ryan Registered

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  25. shauner111 Registered

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    We already knew he was going to be in the third movie. How many scenes? Who knows. What's done is done though. RIP Heath, it's a huge tragedy, but we can't undo it. Rises happened the way it did, and the fact that it's set 8 years later always makes it easier for me to swallow the fact that Joker isn't referenced in the story. And most of the crazy s**t that went down in TDKR was a result of Joker's actions, which is awesome.

    At least he was able to leave his mark as the Joker, and finished all of his scenes. Honestly, him not playing Joker again doesn't bother me. Not compared to the stuff that bothers me the most. Which is the fact that the world couldn't see dozens of other characters that he could have helped create with other filmmakers. And the fact that his family and friends can't see the guy again.
     
    #75 shauner111, May 4, 2017
    Last edited: May 4, 2017

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