The Dark Knight Rises Pardon the insensitivity, but what if Heath was still alive?

[Ryan]

Maybe someone can find it, but I believe there was a quote from Aaron Eckhart that also said that the third film was going to feature Heath as well.

 

[shauner111]

I'm sure Aaron was just talking about contract stuff. He doesn't know anything about scripts or plans beyond that, i'm sure.

 

[The Joker]

Ahhh great post! Finally some further confirmation of Heath's Joker in the third film.

I never thought there was much doubt. His final scene with Batman in TDK always had the vibe that he would be back.

The fact Heath had plans for another movie means he must have had discussions with Nolan, otherwise he wouldn't be planning for it.

 

[shauner111]

No it does not mean that at all.

 

[The Joker]

Maybe someone can find it, but I believe there was a quote from Aaron Eckhart that also said that the third film was going to feature Heath as well.

Of course he was. Actors don't plan for movies they have no idea they'll be in. Especially when they just got done finishing playing the role and have no idea how audiences will react to your character. There's no way Heath just assumed he'd be back again unless he and Nolan talked about Joker returning. His family certainly wouldn't have been aware of such plans for a future role unless something concrete had been discussed and he told them he was planning for it.

This thread's question has just been answered. Joker would have been back.

 

[Ryan]

I never thought there was much doubt. His final scene with Batman in TDK always had the vibe that he would be back.

The fact Heath had plans for another movie means he must have had discussions with Nolan, otherwise he wouldn't be planning for it.

I never had doubt either, but its great to get confirmation like this.

 

[Awest66]

Fun what if question

If Heath Ledger had returned for a TDK sequel, What other villains/characters could work well with him? Would he be the main source of conflict for the sequel or play a supporting role to another antagonist?

I'd love to hear some opinions.

 

[shauner111]

Of course he was. Actors don't plan for movies they have no idea they'll be in. Especially when they just got done finishing playing the role and have no idea how audiences will react to your character. There's no way Heath just assumed he'd be back again unless he and Nolan talked about Joker returning. His family certainly wouldn't have been aware of such plans for a future role unless something concrete had been discussed and he told them he was planning for it.

This thread's question has just been answered. Joker would have been back.

No idea? There was buzz after the first trailer, and he was signed for a third movie. It wouldn't be unlikely if Heath figured he would return to the role, with or without Chris. He loved the character so much, he most likely thought of a few ways to add this or that to the performance (whether those ideas would be rejected or not..)

Something concrete? You're overthinking and reading too much into a quote from his sister.

Yes, of course he would have been back. That wasn't the question of this thread.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, we all know he would've been back. The question has always been the size of his role and how he would've fit into the story.

 

[The Joker]

No idea? There was buzz after the first trailer, and he was signed for a third movie.

Show me links to this buzz please.

It wouldn't be unlikely if Heath figured he would return to the role, with or without Chris. He loved the character so much, he most likely thought of a few ways to add this or that to the performance (whether those ideas would be rejected or not..)

With or without Chris? Not in a million years do I believe for a second Heath would return to the role without Chris. Or any of the actors would for that matter. No way. This was Nolan's vision. His world. The Joker is the character they created together.

So the only remotely plausible scenario where Heath had been making plans for a role he literally just finished is if he and Nolan discussed concrete plans for Joker coming back again.

Something concrete? You're overthinking and reading too much into a quote from his sister.

I'm really not.

Yes, of course he would have been back. That wasn't the question of this thread.

Yes, it is. If it was a minor role some of you were claiming it would likely have been, one which you likened to Crane in TDK and TDKR; http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=35123117&postcount=12

That wouldn't require much, if any planning at all. That is nothing but a cameo, and not even a cameo that has any significance at all to the main story. How much planning do you think Cillian Murphy put into sitting on a bench banging a gavel for two brief scenes lol?

 

[BatLobster]

I think it's a bit of a leap to say that Heath was having in-depth discussions with Chris "I think about one movie at a time" Nolan about his role on the third film based on a comment from his sisters. I'm sure there may have been some loose conversations. I mean, obviously- they did not kill off his character. They clearly left room for him to return, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were some loose discussions/questions from Heath. I just have my doubts that Nolan was like, "this specifically will be your role in the third film and you will have X amount of screen time". I don't think he had those answers yet, nor was he focused on figuring out the answers.

 

[The Joker]

I think it's a bit of a leap to say that Heath was having in-depth discussions with Chris "I think about one movie at a time" Nolan about his role on the third film based on a comment from his sisters. I'm sure there may have been some loose conversations. I mean, obviously- they did not kill off his character. They clearly left room for him to return, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were some loose discussions/questions from Heath. I just have my doubts that Nolan was like, "this specifically will be your role in the third film and you will have X amount of screen time". I don't think he had those answers yet, nor was he focused on figuring out the answers.

I didn't say in depth. I said concrete. As in they discussed ideas for the Joker's return in the third movie. You can't make plans for a role unless you have some ideas as to where your character is going to be going. Otherwise you're just flying blind.

It had to be some kind of sizable role, too. If they were discussing a minor Crane in TDK/R sized type of role, then that requires no real planning at all. That is nothing but a cameo.

Fun what if question

If Heath Ledger had returned for a TDK sequel, What other villains/characters could work well with him? Would he be the main source of conflict for the sequel or play a supporting role to another antagonist?

I'd love to hear some opinions.

Joker and Scarecrow like in Knightfall. I loved their team up;

 

[BatLobster]

I didn't say in depth. I said concrete. As in they discussed ideas for the Joker's return in the third movie. You can't make plans for a role unless you have some ideas as to where your character is going to be going. Otherwise you're just flying blind.

It had to be some kind of sizable role, too. If they were discussing a minor Crane in TDK/R sized type of role, then that requires no real planning at all. That is nothing but a cameo.

Heath could have very well had his own preliminary thoughts about where he wanted the character to go after TDK. After all, he and Nolan were extremely collaborative about bringing him to life from the beginning and Nolan let Heath have a ton of creative license with it. We're talking about the very early, rough stages of the creative process here.

I have no doubt the role would've been bigger than a cameo, how much bigger is the question. The conversation could've been as simple as "You know we'll have to bring you back in the next movie...". Heath then gets excited and starts thinking about ways he can make the role fresh for himself the next time around. Similar to how Heath already had a take on the character in his head before Nolan ever handed him a script for TDK.

Seeing Joker and Scarecrow interact together would've been awesome though, good thought.

 

[The Joker]

Heath could have very well had his own preliminary thoughts about where he wanted the character to go after TDK. After all, he and Nolan were extremely collaborative about bringing him to life from the beginning and Nolan let Heath have a ton of creative license with it.

Exactly, they were collaborative. Nolan didn't approach Heath without any ideas on where he wanted to take the character. So their collaboration was based on something concrete. Just like I believe it was here. They had some ideas about what they were going to do with Joker in the third movie.

We're talking about the very early, rough stages of the creative process here.

Exactly. You don't have plans for a role unless you've been given some basis for where your character is going.

I have no doubt the role would've been bigger than a cameo

Common sense shining through at last

The conversation could've been as simple as "You know we'll have to bring you back in the next movie...". Heath then gets excited and starts thinking about ways he can make the role fresh for himself the next time around.

You can't have plans on how to make the character fresh unless you know what direction the story is taking the character. Otherwise you're flying blind. The direction the character is going dictates how it supposed to be played. Then you make plans on how to play that in a fresh new way.

You think Bale made plans about how to play Bruce in Rises until he had some idea that he was going to be a broken recluse of a man who's abandoned Batman for 8 years?

Similar to how Heath already had a take on the character in his head before Nolan ever handed him a script for TDK.

That's different. This was his first time doing the character, and Heath had an idea on how he was going to play the character personality wise. What tone the character was going to be;

Ledger says that even though The Dark Knight is in preproduction and has yet to see a finished script for the film, he does have a good idea of what his Joker will be like.

"You know, I want it to be a very sinister kind of thing," he says. "It's so early that I'm trying to leave it open at this point and I don't want to be glued down to any one idea. I've been kind of trying to delay my commitment to the preparation process on that because I'm just trying to extend my holiday. I definitely have an image in my head and I definitely have something up my sleeve."

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2006/11/08/the-dark-knight-heath-ledger-talks-joker

This is based on him knowing;

1. It's a major role
2. Discussions he's had with Nolan on the direction they're going with the character.

Seeing the script is just seeing the finer details. You don't need to see the finished script to map out general ideas on the character once you've been given some ideas from the director on what they're doing with the character.

 

[BatLobster]

I disagree. I think you can absolutely have your own thoughts as an actor about where you'd like to see the character go. Bale had thoughts about where he wanted to see Batman go (he talked about the role becoming more sexual), even though they were never realized. I think Heath felt (rightfully so) a big piece of creative ownership on that role. I'm sure he had tons of things left in his bag of tricks that he didn't get to explore, without needing to know what the story of the 3rd film was.

We're not talking about him taking a deep dive into research mode here, this is him just being excited at the prospect of coming back.

Anyhow, I think we're in a bit of a semantics debate here anyway. I think we can all agree at the end of the day that Heath would've been back, and that it's very sad the way things turned out.

 

[shauner111]

Show me links to this buzz please.

I'm pretty sure we all remember the buzz surrounding the first TDK trailer.

With or without Chris? Not in a million years do I believe for a second Heath would return to the role without Chris. Or any of the actors would for that matter. No way. This was Nolan's vision. His world. The Joker is the character they created together.

Yes, with or without Chris. This may be an assumption, because none of us know the fine details of his contract, but Bale and the gang had a 3 film contract. Bale even said this much promoting Batman Begins (on the Charlie Rose show along with Chris) that they had him for a few. If the studio wants Heath, Christian etc back...then they have to do it. They're under contract. That's my assumption. I could be wrong, but that's how i took it. So Heath doesn't have control over who would directing "Batman 3". Nolan could have returned, or walked away, and perhaps Heath would have been forced to return. Even without Nolan, i don't think Heath Ledger would return kicking and screaming.

Bale, Oldman, Freeman and Caine were forced to return for a thid movie if WB wanted a third movie to happen. That's why they were always like "well, i'm signed for more so i hope Chris does another one". Because they loved working with Nolan and loved the end result.

Nolan and Ledger may have created that version together, but they don't own the character, and if WB wanted to recast or get a new director, or if Nolan wanted to walk after TDK...then that's what would have happened.

So the only remotely plausible scenario where Heath had been making plans for a role he literally just finished is if he and Nolan discussed concrete plans for Joker coming back again.

No, that is not the only remotely plausible scenario. It's all hearsay from a family member.

Yes, it is. If it was a minor role some of you were claiming it would likely have been, one which you likened to Crane in TDK and TDKR; http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=35123117&postcount=12

That wouldn't require much, if any planning at all. That is nothing but a cameo, and not even a cameo that has any significance at all to the main story. How much planning do you think Cillian Murphy put into sitting on a bench banging a gavel for two brief scenes lol?

If i ever said cameo, i didn't mean one little scene that has zero significance to the main story. Cameo, glorified cameo, hell even a supporting role. If it's a glorified cameo, i would mean more like one or two chunky scenes where the Joker is in Arkham Asylum. Heath prepared for his roles ahead of time. Quality over quantity. I don't think the size of the role matters to certain actors. Maybe Heath used his own logic, and thought Joker must be locked up in Arkham in the next film if/when he returns, so what would that be like? No makeup, straight jacket maybe? No use of his hands. Different physical forms of expression. Little things like this could have been in his excited mind, even privately, without even discussing it with another filmmaker. Especially knowing Nolan, who wouldn't think about these things halfway through the editing process. That's when Heath died, timeline wise. During editing. Nolan's next project was Inception. I seriously doubt his mind was on this or that possibility for another Batman movie.

You can't make plans for a role unless you have some ideas as to where your character is going to be going. Otherwise you're just flying blind.

It had to be some kind of sizable role, too. If they were discussing a minor Crane in TDK/R sized type of role, then that requires no real planning at all. That is nothing but a cameo.

Yes, exactly. He and everyone else with at least half a brain (which includes all of us here) had some basic ideas on where his character was going because of how TDK ended. Joker was on his way to Arkham Asylum. So of course he would have his own ideas. Even in private.

His sister said HE had plans. There's no proof that he was talking with Chris, and until i hear more about that, i refuse to believe there was anything "concrete" as you put it.

Flying blind is perfectly fine for an actor who is brainstorming ideas in their head. That's the process. Experimentation, which he did back in the day when he got the role in the first place. Some ideas stick, some don't.

A sizable role? Sure. But a sizable role for the Joker could include one single scene that lasts 5 or 10 minutes. If Joker is in a new situation (like being locked up) then for an actor like Heath or Daniel Day Lewis or even DeNiro...that could require some planning. One actor may not plan for a cameo. Another actor might. One actor may not do too much planning for a huge role. The other actor would feel like it's a must.

 

[The Joker]

I'm pretty sure we all remember the buzz surrounding the first TDK trailer.

Sure, buzz of excitement about the movie. Not buzz that Joker will be in the third movie. Nobody was even thinking of the third movie when the first trailer came out. So if there was buzz about Joker being in the third movie, lets see some proof of it.

Yes, with or without Chris. This may be an assumption, because none of us know the fine details of his contract, but Bale and the gang had a 3 film contract. Bale even said this much promoting Batman Begins (on the Charlie Rose show along with Chris) that they had him for a few. If the studio wants Heath, Christian etc back...then they have to do it. They're under contract. That's my assumption. I could be wrong, but that's how i took it. So Heath doesn't have control over who would directing "Batman 3". Nolan could have returned, or walked away, and perhaps Heath would have been forced to return. Even without Nolan, i don't think Heath Ledger would return kicking and screaming.

Not may be an assumption, it is an assumption. Why would you assume Heath would come back without Chris if he was not obligated to do so? He never mentioned he was contracted to do a second movie in any interview he did.

That is a very different to being contractually obligated to coming back like Bale.

Nolan and Ledger may have created that version together, but they don't own the character, and if WB wanted to recast or get a new director, or if Nolan wanted to walk after TDK...then that's what would have happened.

Obviously they don't own the character, but this version was their baby. A product of their creative collaboration. So I fully believe if Heath had the choice he wouldn't be entertaining another Batman movie unless his collaborator and fellow visionary Chris had discussed it with him.

No, that is not the only remotely plausible scenario. It's all hearsay from a family member.

Yes, it is the the only remotely plausible scenario. It may be hearsay, but what reason is there to believe it is untrue? Why would the family lie? And 9 years later, too. There's nothing to be gained from it. It's a more credible source than anything we've had on this.

If i ever said cameo, i didn't mean one little scene that has zero significance to the main story. Cameo, glorified cameo, hell even a supporting role. If it's a glorified cameo, i would mean more like one or two chunky scenes where the Joker is in Arkham Asylum.

You likened it to Crane's cameos in TDK and TDKR. Which are small brief cameos. A cameo is a cameo, and it doesn't require much prep or planning, especially when the next movie is YEARS away.

Heath prepared for his roles ahead of time.

Yeah, roles where he was a main character. Name me a cameo type role you know of that he prepped for years in advance.

Maybe Heath used his own logic, and thought Joker must be locked up in Arkham in the next film if/when he returns, so what would that be like? No makeup, straight jacket maybe? No use of his hands. Different physical forms of expression. Little things like this could have been in his excited mind, even privately, without even discussing it with another filmmaker. Especially knowing Nolan, who wouldn't think about these things halfway through the editing process. That's when Heath died, timeline wise. During editing. Nolan's next project was Inception. I seriously doubt his mind was on this or that possibility for another Batman movie.

Two things;

1. Why would Heath assume Joker would be locked up in the next movie? Was Crane locked up in Rises after being captured in TDK? Is the possibility of Joker escaping an option Heath didn't think was possible? We're talking about a franchise that had two major prison breaks in it.

2. Nolan first approached Hardy about playing Bane while they were still doing Inception. So this claim he doesn't think about future movies while working on another one is baloney. There's no reason to believe Ledger and Nolan didn't have discussions about Joker's return for a third movie and what he may get up to.

Yes, exactly. He and everyone else with at least half a brain (which includes all of us here) had some basic ideas on where his character was going because of how TDK ended. Joker was on his way to Arkham Asylum. So of course he would have his own ideas. Even in private.

And Batman was a wanted fugitive at the end of TDK, with Gordon saying they'll hunt him because he can take it. So we all expected to see Batman being hunted, hated, and enduring it because he's this watchful protector Dark Knight.

But we didn't get that. Rises jumped ahead 8 years, and didn't show an enduring Batman being hunted. It showed a broken reclusive Bruce who has not been Batman for years, and has basically given up on the world.

So if Bale prepped for the third movie based on what the ending to TDK, he'd have been wasting his time because he was prepping for the wrong kind of role. Which is why I don't think he did until he talked to Nolan. Because you can't prep and plan for a role if you have no idea where the character is going.

Same goes for Heath. He wouldn't be making plans for a second round as the Joker unless he had something concrete from Nolan to plan with.

His sister said HE had plans. There's no proof that he was talking with Chris, and until i hear more about that, i refuse to believe there was anything "concrete" as you put it.

Yes, and why would he have plans unless he had some concrete reason to be making plans? I don't care if you believe it. That's your choice. But logic dictates he wouldn't be planning for a role he had no idea what it would be. Is Joker locked up? Free? Is he going to try and expose the Dent cover up? Is he going to go after Batman? Is he going to go after Gordon? Is he going to team with another villain?

Flying blind is perfectly fine for an actor who is brainstorming ideas in their head. That's the process. Experimentation, which he did back in the day when he got the role in the first place. Some ideas stick, some don't.

Brainstorming and experimentation based on something you KNOW. You have some kind of ground work or foundation for where your character is going to go, and then you brain storm and experiment on different ways you could do it.

A sizable role? Sure. But a sizable role for the Joker could include one single scene that lasts 5 or 10 minutes. If Joker is in a new situation (like being locked up) then for an actor like Heath or Daniel Day Lewis or even DeNiro...that could require some planning. One actor may not plan for a cameo. Another actor might. One actor may not do too much planning for a huge role. The other actor would feel like it's a must.

Name me an actor who planned for a cameo sized role years in advance of doing it.

 

[BatLobster]

This argument is getting out of hand lol.

The sister's quote is, "I know Heath had plans for another Batman". That does not automatically translate into him actively planning anything. That can easily just mean that Heath was aware that he'd be back and was looking forward to the phone ringing from Chris Nolan again in the not too distant future, and nothing more than that. I believe her, but I don't take it literally in that he was already actively preparing for the role. "Plans" can also just mean like...I have plans next weekend. It was something he was prepared to block out his schedule for, because he knew he had one of the best experiences of his career on TDK. To say that Nolan gave him detailed notes on what his character would be up to in the next film...I find it unlikely and I think that's kind of a big leap. Especially with Nolan being notoriously secretive, and notoriously not too concerned about sequels when he's working on a given film.

I will reiterate once again, all I'm going to take from this is that it just makes it more sad knowing that Heath was looking forward to coming back. And I think it also squashes the "The Joker role killed Heath" myth once and for all. He clearly had the time of his life and was excited to return.

 

[The Joker]

This argument is getting out of hand lol.

Nobody is being forced to reply. Ryan and I were simply agreeing with each other when certain others decided to take us to task on what we believed.

The sister's quote is, "I know Heath had plans for another Batman". That does not automatically translate into him actively planning anything. That can easily just mean that Heath was aware that he'd be back and was looking forward to the phone ringing from Chris Nolan again in the not too distant future, and nothing more than that. I believe her, but I don't take it literally in that he was already actively preparing for the role. "Plans" can also just mean like...I have plans next weekend. It was something he was prepared to block out his schedule for, because he knew he had one of the best experiences of his career on TDK. To say that Nolan gave him detailed notes on what his character would be up to in the next film...I find it unlikely and I think that's kind of a big leap. Especially with Nolan being notoriously secretive, and notoriously not too concerned about sequels when he's working on a given film.

That's the difference in interpretation here. We don't equate making plans for another role that is years away as looking forward to the phone ringing, or being a cameo sized role which no actor plans for years in advance, or being able to think about how to play the role in a different refreshing way when you have no idea what direction the character is going at all in the next movie.

Nobody said Nolan gave him detailed notes on anything. Concrete notes is the term used, as in they discussed possible ideas on where Joker would go in the third movie, and that was his direction to make plans for the role. You don't make plans for a future role if you have no clue what the character will be doing.

You interpret it in your own way. We'll do it in ours.

I will reiterate once again, all I'm going to take from this is that it just makes it more sad knowing that Heath was looking forward to coming back. And I think it also squashes the "The Joker role killed Heath" myth once and for all. He clearly had the time of his life and was excited to return.

I think that myth was quashed years ago when he said in those interviews that it was the most fun he ever had playing a role. This is just further confirmation.

 

[shauner111]

But he DOES have an idea of where he's going lmao. He's locked up!

 

[The Joker]

So was Crane after TDK. But he was free as a bird when we saw him in TDKR. Batman was a wanted fugitive at the end of TDK, with Gordon saying they'll hunt him because he can take it. So we all expected to see Batman being hunted, hated, and enduring it because he's this watchful protector Dark Knight. But we didn't get that. Rises jumped ahead 8 years, and didn't show an enduring Batman being hunted. It showed a broken reclusive Bruce who has not been Batman since the night Dent died, and has basically given up on the world. So if Bale prepped for the third movie based on what the ending to TDK suggested, he'd have been wasting his time because he was prepping for the wrong kind of role.

But lets play devil's advocate; suppose Heath did believe Joker would be locked up. That's still as vague as anything. What's he doing while locked up? Has he gone into a comatose cut off state like Joker in DKR? Is he like Hannibal Lecter being consulted in an advisory capacity? Is he plotting an escape? Is he orchestrating an Arkham riot like in the Arkham Asylum GN? How could Heath possibly plan for that unless he had some idea what Joker would be doing.

 

[Awest66]

Joker and Scarecrow like in Knightfall. I loved their team up;

I'm surprised, Joker. I thought for sure you'd say the Penguin.

 

[shauner111]

Sure, buzz of excitement about the movie. Not buzz that Joker will be in the third movie. Nobody was even thinking of the third movie when the first trailer came out. So if there was buzz about Joker being in the third movie, lets see some proof of it.

I was talking about buzz about Joker's performance after the first big TDK trailer.

Not may be an assumption, it is an assumption. Why would you assume Heath would come back without Chris if he was not obligated to do so? He never mentioned he was contracted to do a second movie in any interview he did.

That is a very different to being contractually obligated to coming back like Bale.

None of us know. We've heard that he was signed for another film.

Obviously they don't own the character, but this version was their baby. A product of their creative collaboration. So I fully believe if Heath had the choice he wouldn't be entertaining another Batman movie unless his collaborator and fellow visionary Chris had discussed it with him.

Not if he was obligated to return. Also, it is a possibility that he would return if Nolan was producing, and another talented director took Nolan's place.

Yes, it is the the only remotely plausible scenario. It may be hearsay, but what reason is there to believe it is untrue? Why would the family lie? And 9 years later, too. There's nothing to be gained from it. It's a more credible source than anything we've had on this.

I'm not saying she's lying. But it is the definition of hearsay. There isn't proof. So it could have been Heath just excited and talking about VERY basic plans for the future IF and when he returned to the role. No matter who's directing. It's just talk, and it doesn't confirm he ever talked to Chris about characterization or storyline ideas for a third movie. You're putting that into it because you want to believe that Joker was always going to be in a huge role in the sequel to TDK. Most likely because you weren't happy with some of TDKR. You're usually a very technical individual and correct posters when they don't deliver absolute facts, proof etc. But here, you kinda seem willing to stretch this out a bit.

It is not the only remotely plausible scenario. That's just not true.

Also, i believe her. But you're adding things to her quote like speaking to Nolan and exaggerating his plans. Facts are facts. And all we have is Heath himself, as an individual, had his own plans for the next movie. Nothing more, nothing less.

You likened it to Crane's cameos in TDK and TDKR. Which are small brief cameos. A cameo is a cameo, and it doesn't require much prep or planning, especially when the next movie is YEARS away.

It doesn't require much prep or planning, correct. But it may still require prep and planning depending on the actor and if they're having some fun thinking up ideas for said cameo. You or i were not in Ledger's head, we don't know his process.

My point exactly. The movie was years away. The guy isn't stupid. If he has a contract to fulfill, and is aware that Chris may or may not return after Inception...then i doubt there would be plans beyond the basics of "Joker is likely trapped in Arkham, what can i do with that since the character is limited physically?". That's just an actor having some fun planning. This could be the exact scenario. You can't say that it HAS to be more than that. Come on man. That would be you adding to the story. And you could be right. But it's not one way.

Yeah, roles where he was a main character. Name me a cameo type role you know of that he prepped for years in advance.

It's not relevant if i have that information or not. I don't follow every detail of his process and career, but i do know that he was dedicated. Character actors, method actors usually are. It's not out of the question to think of Bale, Ledger, Daniel Day Lewis, Hardy to name a few...having fun thinking of ways to approach a character they love. Cameo or lead role. Maybe he did this for every single role. Maybe he didn't.

Two things;

1. Why would Heath assume Joker would be locked up in the next movie? Was Crane locked up in Rises after being captured in TDK? Is the possibility of Joker escaping an option Heath didn't think was possible? We're talking about a franchise that had two major prison breaks in it.

2. Nolan first approached Hardy about playing Bane while they were still doing Inception. So this claim he doesn't think about future movies while working on another one is baloney. There's no reason to believe Ledger and Nolan didn't have discussions about Joker's return for a third movie and what he may get up to.

1. Why not? He's on his way to Arkham. Batman as a symbol wins, gets what he wanted at the very end, so Gotham could benefit. Sure Joker could escape in the third film, as the story progresses. But they weren't working on the story in that way. Joker would be sitting in a cell when we first see him, that much Heath should have known. I mean, nothing is concrete as you put it. There's no proof that Nolan said to him "hey when the next movie starts, Joker is let loose!". There's no proof of conversation with Chris. So if he had some plans, he wouldn't be writing the third movie in his head. That's not his job. He's an actor. He would look to what is obvious, and that is, Joker is on his way to Arkham...Batman wins the battle. So obviously he's in a cell when we first see him.

2. Where's the proof of that? I was under the impression it was right after working with Tom on Inception. 2010. Nothing more than Chris wanting Tom to play the villain. How is that the same?

And Batman was a wanted fugitive at the end of TDK, with Gordon saying they'll hunt him because he can take it. So we all expected to see Batman being hunted, hated, and enduring it because he's this watchful protector Dark Knight.

But we didn't get that. Rises jumped ahead 8 years, and didn't show an enduring Batman being hunted. It showed a broken reclusive Bruce who has not been Batman for years, and has basically given up on the world.

So if Bale prepped for the third movie based on what the ending to TDK, he'd have been wasting his time because he was prepping for the wrong kind of role. Which is why I don't think he did until he talked to Nolan. Because you can't prep and plan for a role if you have no idea where the character is going.

Same goes for Heath. He wouldn't be making plans for a second round as the Joker unless he had something concrete from Nolan to plan with.

Well, even though i think all of that was delivered at the end of TDK AND TDKR. The final scene in TDK is non-linear. As Gordon says his little speech, the shots are minutes later. They hunted him after he ran out of sight from Jim and his son. The dogs chased him. And then in TDKR we see more of that happen, eight years later. In fact, Batman is a symbol, and so Batman did endure the hate from the public for 8 years.

But i already know you disagree with that, which is fine. So let's say plans changed and "we never saw him being hunted". OK. So, plans change right? If Heath had his own plans, or plans with the director, then it doesn't mean that any of that would have came to fruition.

All this talk of prep and planning. "Heath had plans", that's it. He could have been wasting his time. The Bale comparison falls flat too, because we don't know where he went after his final scene. But we do know where Joker is going. THAT is pretty concrete. Bruce, not so much. So Bale wouldn't be planning anything. Heath however, could have. And there is no proof that he would have had anything more than a cameo. There's just no proof. Even if i think it's a few key scenes, and you think it's bigger than that...it could have been a cameo.

Yes, and why would he have plans unless he had some concrete reason to be making plans? I don't care if you believe it. That's your choice. But logic dictates he wouldn't be planning for a role he had no idea what it would be. Is Joker locked up? Free? Is he going to try and expose the Dent cover up? Is he going to go after Batman? Is he going to go after Gordon? Is he going to team with another villain?

Because actors could have their own little plans for their characters. Character work is key with good actors. Even the smallest details. Even if it's one scene for a director they admire.

You're jumping ahead. Just stop at "locked up". Everything else you listed may come later in a story that wasn't written yet. All they know is Joker is locked up. And with that little information, yes, an actor can have some plans, brainstorming ideas. You're talking story when you say going after Batman, Gordon, exposing etc. An actor will plan for movement, nuance, surroundings, lighting. There's a lot Heath could do in one room with a handheld. Look at what Hopkins did with his limitations.

Brainstorming and experimentation based on something you KNOW. You have some kind of ground work or foundation for where your character is going to go, and then you brain storm and experiment on different ways you could do it.

Indeed. And he knows he's going to be locked up. I'm saying that would be enough.

 

[The Joker]

I'm surprised, Joker. I thought for sure you'd say the Penguin.

Scarecrow makes more sense for this world because he's already established as a villain, he and Joker could have a common goal of wreaking chaos. Penguin is motivated by profit. As we saw in TDK, Joker is not.

I was talking about buzz about Joker's performance after the first big TDK trailer.

What's that got to do with anything? All good performances have buzz about them after seeing them in trailers.

None of us know. We've heard that he was signed for another film.

Heard where? From what source?

Not if he was obligated to return. Also, it is a possibility that he would return if Nolan was producing, and another talented director took Nolan's place.

IF he was obligated to return. There's no basis to believe he was.

It's a possibility, but a tiny small remote one in my view. It's not the same creative collaboration in a producer capacity.

I'm not saying she's lying. But it is the definition of hearsay. There isn't proof.

But if there is no reason to believe she is lying, then why do we need proof to believe it's credibility?

So it could have been Heath just excited and talking about VERY basic plans for the future IF and when he returned to the role. No matter who's directing. It's just talk, and it doesn't confirm he ever talked to Chris about characterization or storyline ideas for a third movie. You're putting that into it because you want to believe that Joker was always going to be in a huge role in the sequel to TDK. Most likely because you weren't happy with some of TDKR. You're usually a very technical individual and correct posters when they don't deliver absolute facts, proof etc. But here, you kinda seem willing to stretch this out a bit.

It is not the only remotely plausible scenario. That's just not true.

Yes, it is the only remotely plausible scenario. Actors don't make plans for playing a role again, unless they know what's being done with the role. Otherwise all your plans might have nothing to do with what is going to be done with the character, which means all your planning and ideas were a big waste of time.

This is as technical as it gets because it's logic based. What actor plans for a minor role, one they have no idea what is going to be done with it, especially when it's not due to be filmed for several years. That just doesn't make any sense no matter what way you look at it.

The most likely scenario is Heath and Nolan discussed some loose ideas about where they would likely take the Joker for a third movie. Not in depth detailed ideas, just some general ideas for Heath to plan and toy with. But definitely had some discussions with Nolan. Otherwise he wouldn't be planning diddly squat.

Also, i believe her. But you're adding things to her quote like speaking to Nolan and exaggerating his plans. Facts are facts. And all we have is Heath himself, as an individual, had his own plans for the next movie. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not adding jack to her quote, I am interpreting Heath having plans that he must have he had discussions with Nolan in order to be planning for a role he was years away from filming.

It doesn't require much prep or planning, correct. But it may still require prep and planning depending on the actor and if they're having some fun thinking up ideas for said cameo. You or i were not in Ledger's head, we don't know his process.

But what basis have you believe that? Has Heath ever planned for a small role years in advance of doing it?

My point exactly. The movie was years away. The guy isn't stupid. If he has a contract to fulfill, and is aware that Chris may or may not return after Inception...then i doubt there would be plans beyond the basics of "Joker is likely trapped in Arkham, what can i do with that since the character is limited physically?". That's just an actor having some fun planning. This could be the exact scenario. You can't say that it HAS to be more than that. Come on man. That would be you adding to the story. And you could be right. But it's not one way.

But again what basis is there to believe Heath was the sort of actor who planned for up in the air roles he has no idea about years before he does them? The Joker being trapped in Arkham is as vague as you can get. There's a plethora of different ways that could go. Is he in a comatose cut off state like in DKR? Is he going to be in a Hannibal Lecter like manipulative role? Is he planning an escape? A mass break out? An Arkham riot?

This is why I don't believe Heath can make plans when he has no idea what plans to make when he doesn't know what the hell the Joker will be doing. So it's pointless to plan.

It's not relevant if i have that information or not. I don't follow every detail of his process and career, but i do know that he was dedicated. Character actors, method actors usually are. It's not out of the question to think of Bale, Ledger, Daniel Day Lewis, Hardy to name a few...having fun thinking of ways to approach a character they love. Cameo or lead role. Maybe he did this for every single role. Maybe he didn't.

Lots of actors are dedicated. They don't all starting making plans for a small role they have no idea the direction it will go years in advance of doing it. Heath was the kind of actor who was dedicated in that once he secured a role and knew what they were doing with it, that he put 110% into it. When he got the Joker role, he made a scrap book, researched Joker comics, locked himself away in a hotel for a month perfecting Joker's voice and mannerisms etc.

He didn't do that 3 years before, when he had no freaking clue what Nolan was going to do with the character.

1. Why not? He's on his way to Arkham. Batman as a symbol wins, gets what he wanted at the very end, so Gotham could benefit. Sure Joker could escape in the third film, as the story progresses. But they weren't working on the story in that way. Joker would be sitting in a cell when we first see him, that much Heath should have known. I mean, nothing is concrete as you put it. There's no proof that Nolan said to him "hey when the next movie starts, Joker is let loose!". There's no proof of conversation with Chris. So if he had some plans, he wouldn't be writing the third movie in his head. That's not his job. He's an actor. He would look to what is obvious, and that is, Joker is on his way to Arkham...Batman wins the battle. So obviously he's in a cell when we first see him.

1. I just told you why not. Because the ending doesn't dictate the follow up. If it did we'd see Batman being hunted and enduring it, and the hatred of Gotham. But we didn't get anything like what the ending of TDK suggested for Batman. If Bale went and planned his character to be a hunted and hated Batman enduring it all, then it would have been a colossal waste of his time, because Nolan went in a whole other direction with him in TDKR. So why would Heath just assume Nolan would do the obvious and just lock Joker away, when he had a plethora of other options that didn't have to involve incarceration? Crane was caught and locked up in TDK. Was he in jail in Rises when we saw him?

2. 'Unbeknownst to Hardy, Nolan quietly auditioned the actor while filming the 2010 mind-bender Inception' http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/dark-knight-rises-tom-hardy-bane-350187

Well, even though i think all of that was delivered at the end of TDK AND TDKR. The final scene in TDK is non-linear. As Gordon says his little speech, the shots are minutes later. They hunted him after he ran out of sight from Jim and his son. The dogs chased him. And then in TDKR we see more of that happen, eight years later. In fact, Batman is a symbol, and so Batman did endure the hate from the public for 8 years.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that 10 second little chase to the Bat-Pod at the end of TDK is what they were referring to when they said Batman will be hunted and can endure it?

Batman doesn't have endure anything if he's not Batman any more.

But i already know you disagree with that, which is fine. So let's say plans changed and "we never saw him being hunted". OK. So, plans change right? If Heath had his own plans, or plans with the director, then it doesn't mean that any of that would have came to fruition.

Right, so why would Heath be so foolish to plan for something he never even discussed with Nolan, since you claim there was no discussions about anything to do with the third movie?

All this talk of prep and planning. "Heath had plans", that's it. He could have been wasting his time. The Bale comparison falls flat too, because we don't know where he went after his final scene. But we do know where Joker is going. THAT is pretty concrete. Bruce, not so much. So Bale wouldn't be planning anything. Heath however, could have. And there is no proof that he would have had anything more than a cameo. There's just no proof. Even if i think it's a few key scenes, and you think it's bigger than that...it could have been a cameo.

Does Heath strike you as the kind of actor who likes to waste his time on his acting craft? An actor who keeps detailed scrapbooks, and locks himself away in hotel rooms for weeks working out all the little tics and mannerisms of his character? That is the image you have of him? Planning something he was wasting his time on? Planning for a cameo role years in advance?

This all sounds logical to you?

Because actors could have their own little plans for their characters. Character work is key with good actors. Even the smallest details. Even if it's one scene for a director they admire.

Yeah character work when they know what is being done with the character, and they can plan how they are going to play it, and add their own little touches to it. E.g. Nolan let Heath direct some of his own scenes like when he had Mike Engel upside down delivering the threat to Gotham.

Not making plans about something he knows nothing about.

You're jumping ahead. Just stop at "locked up". Everything else you listed may come later in a story that wasn't written yet. All they know is Joker is locked up. And with that little information, yes, an actor can have some plans, brainstorming ideas. You're talking story when you say going after Batman, Gordon, exposing etc. An actor will plan for movement, nuance, surroundings, lighting. There's a lot Heath could do in one room with a handheld. Look at what Hopkins did with his limitations.

Stopping at locked up is way too vague to make any plans because that could go in a hundred different ways. Actors don't make plans for their characters based on no information The story dictates what the characters nuances and surroundings will be.

Bale's nuances and surroundings of an active hunted Batman is very different to an 8 year retired, spiritually broken reclusive Bruce Wayne.

Indeed. And he knows he's going to be locked up. I'm saying that would be enough.

But it wouldn't. You might as well tell him he's going to have interactions with Batman, as it's as vague as saying he'll be locked up.

 

[Awest66]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that 10 second little chase to the Bat-Pod at the end of TDK is what they were referring to when they said Batman will be hunted and can endure it?

I'm not saying a TDK sequel needed to begin with Batman retired or even Gotham completely crime free but in my opinion, It needed to show Batman taking the fall for Harvey's crimes having some kind of impact on the city beyond just making him a wanted fugitive again, thus making his job harder for no reason.

On the matter at hand, I'd have no problem with the Joker returning, even in a major role but personally, I'd rather not have him be the main source of conflict again. I'd do something akin to his appearance in Under the Red Hood or the Telltale Batman games.