The Winter Soldier Peggy's status

[AndrewGilkison]

I would love to see Steve and Peggy get closure on that dance they were supposed to have in the first movie. If it's executed well, I see no reason why it would be "creepy" or "awkward" unless you are a short sighted person who thinks seeing old people on screen is "icky". It would be cool if Steve was still having trouble adjusting to the modern world and Peggy tells him he needs to let go of the past and live in the present day, which would open the door for Steve to have a romance with Sharon or whoever.

 

[cherokeesam]

Making it her "grand niece" or "great grandniece" makes it sound even creepier.

Again: why, for god's sake? Remember, Peggy is a woman he never had sex with, and only kissed *once.* How the hell can there be even a *hint* of incest with the distant relative of someone you never....had....sex.....with.....???

They change creepy things from comic books in movies all the time.
http://www.cracked.com/article_19799_5-creepy-superhero-origin-stories-movies-wisely-left-out.html

Great article. Did Cracked have any problem with Steve Rogers and the Carter gals? Hmmm....nope. Neither did anybody else for the past fifty years (until some clueless yokels on the SHH! forums started reading wayyyyyy too much into this).

Steve Rodgers is 90 himself

No. No, he isn't.
Steve Rogers was basically hit by a time stop spell. He was in SUSPENDED ANIMATION for 70 years. You *do* understand that means he did not age one bit, correct....? Time passed him by; but for him, time did not pass at all. Steve Rogers is still 23 years old. Biologically, developmentally, mentally, chronologically.

and Sharon Carter is I'm guessing, in her 20s. So yes, I find that to be creepy. What I don't find creepy however, is Steve sharing a dance with an old woman or something like that for closure.

Closure for *Steve,* not for Peggy. I absolutely love how you "hopeless romantics" fail to recognize the absolutely incredibly selfish move this "last dance" would prove to be on Steve Rogers' part.

Let me show you the most likely timeline for Steve Rogers and Peggy Carter from 1945-2012:

Steve: .....sure is cold in here. Wait, what....? 2012....? How the **** did that happen....?

Peggy: Oh, Steve! *sob* You gave your life over the North Atlantic to save millions of lives in New York City. How noble, how heroic. I'm sure gonna miss you....but I'm getting on with my life. I'll always remember you, and your heroism as a shining example for everyone (including me) to try to follow. Meanwhile, I'm aging, like a normal human being; getting married, like a normal human being; raising a family, like a normal human being; and living a long, fulfilling, happy life, like a normal human being. And now here it is, 2012, and I'm at the end of my life's long journey, and....wait, what....? Steve's still alive?! Just frozen in ice all these years...? Huh....fancy that. Oh well, good for him. I hope he goes on to live a long, fulfilling, happy life, just like I did. Maybe he'll meet a nice young woman his age....I could try to set him up with my grand-niece, she's such a nice girl.

See how that works? I know you wish like hell that Peggy carried a torch for Steve for 70+ years, but there's not a snowball's chance that she did. Like everyone else on the planet, she figured he was deader than four o'clock, and she got on with her life. Now it's time for Steve to get on with his, and he *wouldn't* be selfish enough to try to meet this 93-year old woman to try to stir up ancient memories and feelings or try to guilt-trip her for not waiting up for him or trying to send out a search party or something. Jesus.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

There's nothing wrong with him visiting her. It would be a way for him to get some type of closure and move on. Probably even for Peggy it helps answer any lingering questions she had. For all we know, she was helping Stark and the SSR/SHIELD look for him all these years.

 

[cherokeesam]

There's nothing wrong with him visiting her. It would be a way for him to get some type of closure and move on. Probably even for Peggy it helps answer any lingering questions she had. For all we know, she was helping Stark and the SSR/SHIELD look for him all these years.

What "lingering questions".....? The dude blew up in an airplane over the frozen North Atlantic. (As far as she, and the rest of the world, knew.) I'm sure there might have been some ships, planes and/or subs in the area that conducted an immediate search for wreckage and debris in the days (or even weeks) afterward, but it's obvious that they found nothing, other than the Tesseract at the bottom of the sea.

Did I, or anyone else for that matter ever say it was incest or any form of incest? No, the fact that your mind immediately jumps to that says something. Nevertheless, its CREEPY, and relationships can be creepy without incest.

Feel free to explain just exactly what you find "creepy" about the situation, then. What taboo do you think Steve violates by hooking up with Sharon Carter? Is he breaking any laws? Is he violating any moral codes? Doing something that the Holy Bible and/or the Moral Majority declares a sin? Really. Please. Do tell.

 

[metaphysician]

Well, there is an element of "Oh, dang, I couldn't get together with Peggy. Well, hey, maybe I should try with Sharon, her younger relative. They are interchangeable, right?"

Not that this is a fair summary at all, mind. However, its not so much about incest as about interchangeability.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

It was definitely the right call to cut the peggy scene out of TA. But it might be nice to have a reunion scene so Steve can have closure with her and move on to someone he can have a physical relationship with. Poor guy must be ready to burst. Hopefully he's discovered internet porn.

If Sharon Carter is indeed the role, I'm kinda perplexed by the short list. I hate typecasting, or casting based strictly on looks, especially for lead roles, but some of these are head-scratchers. Anna Kendrick? All 5 foot 3 of her? She can act though, so who knows.

Ill shut up now because Ive never seen the other two. I guess we should expect some quirky casting from the Russo's, which is fine. In Evans and Marvel (and Whedon?) I trust.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Oh, and reading the above "argument" about Peggy and Cap lowered my IQ a couple points. Ninety seconds of my life down the toilet. Thanks.

 

[TheGuy]

I'd prefer Peggy to be dead so that Cap could move on. Maybe he finds where she was buried and that could be the emotional punch for the next Cap movie. It should be at the beginning so that Sharon and Cap's romance could be developed.

 

[cherokeesam]

The deleted scene with Cap in the Avengers permanently puts to rest this whole "Peggy: alive or dead?" argument.

DCMarvelFreshman posted it over at The Site Which Cannot Be Linked Here, so check it out over there, if you haven't seen it yet....god knows it should never, never, NEVER have been left on the cutting room floor. (Terrible call to cut that scene, Joss. Kevin. Whoever.)

Anyway, the scene shows that:

Spoiler

Peggy is, indeed, alive, and Cap is looking at the dossier we saw above. We also see that he checks out her phone number, glances at the telephone, thinks about calling her, but then thinks better of it, and goes on with his life.

Which is a great way to handle it, without getting the maudlin "last dance" that some people here have been asking for.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

The deleted scene with Cap in the Avengers permanently puts to rest this whole "Peggy: alive or dead?" argument.

Not necessarily.

We already knew there was such a scene, what remains to be seen is what will the Russo brothers do about it.

 

[metaphysician]

Deleted scenes are not definitively canon. All that scene means is that, at some point, Whedon was planning to decide Peggy was alive. Given the scene was deleted, that returns to matter to uncertainty.

 

[chamber-music]

I really liked that deleted scene. Steve seems loney and out of place in the modern world.

 

[cherokeesam]

Not necessarily.

We already knew there was such a scene, what remains to be seen is what will the Russo brothers do about it.

Deleted scenes are not definitively canon. All that scene means is that, at some point, Whedon was planning to decide Peggy was alive. Given the scene was deleted, that returns to matter to uncertainty.

Oh, good lord. Will it never end....? Phase II: Denial.

I really liked that deleted scene. Steve seems loney and out of place in the modern world.

Now, that I can agree with. That whole sequence, all 3.5 minutes of it, was essential to Steve's story and his mindset. Some of the deleted scenes are take it or leave it, but this one is unforgiveable. I'm genuinely pissed off that it got scrapped....all of it: the newsreels, the resolution of Peggy's status, the Stan Lee cameo, the scenes of Steve's difficulty in transitioning to the future.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Oh, good lord. Will it never end....? Phase II: Denial.

Denial nothing.

Many here knew she was alive in a deleted scene. It's even in the first post. That was never the issue, the issue is what makes for a better story.

 

[cherokeesam]

Denial nothing.

Many here knew she was alive in a deleted scene. It's even in the first post. That was never the issue, the issue is what makes for a better story.

The issue here is that the story is already written. Joss put it in there: Peggy's alive; Steve doesn't try to contact her. Yeah, the Russos can have him change his mind, but trying to pretend that *this* scene "didn't happen" or "isn't canon" is dodging the issue, and is frankly an insult to Joss Whedon's judgment on the matter.

It's done; move on. That's the point.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

The issue here is that the story is already written. Joss put it in there: Peggy's alive; Steve doesn't try to contact her. Yeah, the Russos can have him change his mind, but trying to pretend that *this* scene "didn't happen" or "isn't canon" is dodging the issue, and is frankly an insult to Joss Whedon's judgment on the matter.

It's done; move on. That's the point.

Joss Whedon isn't the end all and be all of the entire Marvel universe. It's not really his right to decide what needs to happen in each and every franchise.

And I'm sure the Russos don't need to get to change Whedon's mind about it. They need to sell Kevin Feige on the idea. Maybe they can, maybe they can't, but it isn't really Whedon's call.

 

[BoredGuy]

Yeah, deleted scenes mean f***-all
If the Russos wanna put it in there, they are tottally able to do so

 

[Hyde]

Considering Peggy Carter resides in Winchester (where I live) and I want to see Cap visiting one of the many retirement homes around here, I want her to have a cameo in The Winter Soldier.

 

[M-2]

“One of the best scenes that I wrote was the beautiful and poignant scene between Steve and Peggy [Carter] that takes place in the present.

I don't think this Peggy scene with Cap was even filmed, I think Joss just scrapped it in the script! After all that is what he said... He never said he filmed it...

 

[herolee10]

I think it was reported awhile back that Steve ended up coming in front when it came to having the most screen time over RDJ's Iron Man by a few minutes from the theatrical cut alone. If they had added the man out of time thing back in, along with having kept and filmed his reunion with Peggy, TA would have definitely come off with Steve being presented as the protagonist of the story.

 

[cherokeesam]

Joss Whedon isn't the end all and be all of the entire Marvel universe. It's not really his right to decide what needs to happen in each and every franchise.

And I'm sure the Russos don't need to get to change Whedon's mind about it. They need to sell Kevin Feige on the idea. Maybe they can, maybe they can't, but it isn't really Whedon's call.

Yeah, deleted scenes mean f***-all
If the Russos wanna put it in there, they are tottally able to do so

Since when? To *both* these comments. You guys are assuming and presuming a lot about how Marvel Studios is going to handle canon and retcons.

So far, there's absolutely *no* evidence that any of the directors/writers intend to tread on previously established story arcs or character arcs. Joss certainly showed respect for premises that had been established in CATFA, Thor, IM and TIH....I'm reasonably sure that the rest of Marvel's directors will extend the same courtesy to Joss. Especially considering that he's been named the godfather of Phase II MCU.

And complete b.s. to the call that "deleted scenes aren't canon." Deleted scenes, like director's cuts, represent the actual story as filmed and the director's vision; things that were cut to shorten the film to a more manageable length or because they weren't considered essential to the plot, pacing, or atmosphere.

Deleted scenes are "bonus canon," or "enhanced canon." If a filmmaker considers them unnecessary or just plain wrong, he leaves them out completely --- i.e., no deleted scenes, no director's cuts, no DVD/BR extras. He just leaves them on the cutting room floor and never lets the general public get wind of them.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Since when? To *both* these comments. You guys are assuming and presuming a lot about how Marvel Studios is going to handle canon and retcons.

As do you.

So far, there's absolutely *no* evidence that any of the directors/writers intend to tread on previously established story arcs or character arcs.

Which has never been the discussion. The discussion is what could happen, not what will.

Joss certainly showed respect for premises that had been established in CATFA, Thor, IM and TIH....

Premises that were present in the movie itself, rather than a deleted scene.

I'm reasonably sure that the rest of Marvel's directors will extend the same courtesy to Joss. Especially considering that he's been named the godfather of Phase II MCU.

Sure, just not with stuff that's solely connected to the Captain America franchise and not the least bit with the Avengers franchise.

And complete b.s. to the call that "deleted scenes aren't canon." Deleted scenes, like director's cuts, represent the actual story as filmed and the director's vision; things that were cut to shorten the film to a more manageable length or because they weren't considered essential to the plot, pacing, or atmosphere.

Deleted scenes are "bonus canon," or "enhanced canon." If a filmmaker considers them unnecessary or just plain wrong, he leaves them out completely --- i.e., no deleted scenes, no director's cuts, no DVD/BR extras. He just leaves them on the cutting room floor and never lets the general public get wind of them.

Not really. Deleted scenes are included because they're interesting, or fun to watch, but they don't really matter.

There is an alternate ending scene where Maria Hill has a conference with the Council, a scene that can't possibly be canon alongside the actual ending in the movie. Its included not because its bonus canon, its there because its good footage they wanted to share.

The opening of TIH includes Cap's body frozen inside an iceberg, something that is ignored in CATFA. It's on the Blu-Ray, yet doesn't matter.

 

[cherokeesam]

As do you.

Which has never been the discussion. The discussion is what could happen, not what will.


Premises that were present in the movie itself, rather than a deleted scene.


Sure, just not with stuff that's solely connected to the Captain America franchise and not the least bit with the Avengers franchise.


Not really. Deleted scenes are included because they're interesting, or fun to watch, but they don't really matter.

There is an alternate ending scene where Maria Hill has a conference with the Council, a scene that can't possibly be canon alongside the actual ending in the movie. Its included not because its bonus canon, its there because its good footage they wanted to share.

The opening of TIH includes Cap's body frozen inside an iceberg, something that is ignored in CATFA. It's on the Blu-Ray, yet doesn't matter.

1) The Maria Hill alt ending in no way, shape or form contradicts the theatrical ending of the Avengers. It, in fact, enhances a plot point which most of us Marvelite fanboys had already assumed the MCU would add --- namely, that Hill will replace Fury as head of SHIELD, with Fury's blessing.

2) The TIH alt opening *is* canon, and was, in fact, referenced in the Avengers, when Banner clearly speaks about the scene where he swallowed a bullet and "the other guy" spit it out. The sketchy Cap appearance has never been confirmed beyond just a shadowy blur in the ice; but even if you accept the theory, there is nothing there that necessarily contradicts the Capsicle story arc. In fact, it could enhance it: Hulk's massive strike could have been the catalyst that actually jarred the Flying Wing a lot closer to the surface for SHIELD to locate, and Cap's body might have been frozen nearby and *bounced* closer to the plane. This IS Hulk Smash we're talking about, after all.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

1) The Maria Hill alt ending in no way, shape or form contradicts the theatrical ending of the Avengers. It, in fact, enhances a plot point which most of us Marvelite fanboys had already assumed the MCU would add --- namely, that Hill will replace Fury as head of SHIELD, with Fury's blessing.

In the movie, it is Fury that has the talk with the Counsil. In the deleted scene, it is Hill that does. One of the two could have happened, not both.

2) The TIH alt opening *is* canon, and was, in fact, referenced in the Avengers, when Banner clearly speaks about the scene where he swallowed a bullet and "the other guy" spit it out. The sketchy Cap appearance has never been confirmed beyond just a shadowy blur in the ice; but even if you accept the theory, there is nothing there that necessarily contradicts the Capsicle story arc. In fact, it could enhance it: Hulk's massive strike could have been the catalyst that actually jarred the Flying Wing a lot closer to the surface for SHIELD to locate, and Cap's body might have been frozen nearby and *bounced* closer to the plane. This IS Hulk Smash we're talking about, after all.

Louis Leterrier came out and said that was what it was. Confirmed right there.

But wait a minute, you're saying that Cap's body somehow left the flying wing even though he was still inside when he crashed?

And then, somehow, just because Banner Hulked out, he wound up back inside? All this despite the fact that when SHIELD shows up, they have to cut their way in.

Suuuure.

Alright, try this one on for size. Iron Man has a deleted scene where Pepper first discovers Tony in the Iron Man armor in Dubai, rather than at his basement.

 

[OccamsTaser]

In the movie, it is Fury that has the talk with the Counsil. In the deleted scene, it is Hill that does. One of the two could have happened, not both.

How is that? It's not impossible that a governing body would want to debrief more than one person directly involved in some incident.