Returns or 89?

Returns or 89?

  • Batman 89

  • Batman Returns


Results are only viewable after voting.
Then why didn't you quote it like you did with the rest?

Cos I had nothin to say on it. You said it was better. What do you want me to say? Repeat myself and say no I dont think so again? Sheesh.

And you were doing... what? Anything different?

No never said I was. But just cos you feel compelled to respond to everything I have to say doesnt obligate me to respond to all of your opinions.

According to the volume of your replies, I'd say the opposite.

Volume of replies on what you think of Penguin? We havent discussed it since.

I wasn't expecting anything special. But if you're going to quote me do it properly and don't try to make my post look like something it wasn't.

How did I make your post look like something is wasnt just by directly responding to one part of it? Unless you were not clear on what you said?

Oh you mean "supernatural." Like what I said you said. Ra's is supernatural. Ergo 'supernatural' feels like a Batman character.

I dont know why you keep sayin that. Are you trying to start a fight or somethin? I said supernatural Catwoman didn't feel like a Batman character cos thats not the way Catwoman is. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

The way you wrote it for example. If you write "they didn't feel like Batman characters" you're implying that no Batman character shares those characteristics.

Had you said "they didn't feel like the Batman characters" you could have had a better shot.

Alright thats a fair comment. In that case I'm sorry for the confusion. I'll be more precise next time.

Joker is not a face-painter. Two-Face doesn't die after 4 days.

Joker having a white face and green hair by make up instead of chemicals didnt hinder him from feelin like the Joker to me. He still had the white face and green hair and red lips and purple suit, and all the Jokers evil chaotic nature. Visual changes are expected. I mean Batman wearing black rubber instead of spandex.

Doc Octopus is not a good fellow who turns bad because of an accident.

No? So he was a criminal before he went bad?

On the other hand Penguin is a bitter character who wants to become a respected aristocrat and Catwoman is a troubled woman who plays like a villiain but falls for Batman. Hey, they do feel like the Batman characters, except that - like in every comic book movie - they made some changes here and there.

I didnt see them that way. Penguin in the comics looks, dresses, and speaks like an aristocrat. He doesn have flippers and black drool and chew fish like some savage animal. He doesnt live in the sewers. He doesnt employ circus freaks. He doesnt want to kill babies. Catwoman was an unhinged lunatic with supernatural ability with a vendetta against her boss.

They didnt feel like the Penguin and Catwoman.
 
Just a quick addition. Catwoman was not supernatural, it was just her talk. She was knocked out of the building yet her fall was significantly slowed down numerous times before the fall. The scene were the cats "examin" the unconscious Selina is a homage to the identical scene in the comics when Selina the prostitute was beat up to unconciousness and thrown out to the alley in the winter. Also, she never really dies, yet she counts her lives down after each fall or injury (falls that are all slowed down by sand or garden). Its just playing it close but surely nothing supernatural and Burton even says so black on white. As far as the bullets, its the same thing as with falling - it may appear like shes bulletproof, but if one takes a closer look, she never gets hit in a spot that would cause a fatal wound, only her arms and tights, never torso, and just when Shreck is about to shoot her in the stomach he rusn out of bullets. It was toying with the idea, but clearly nothing supernatural. If she was supernatural, she would simply fell of the window without slowing down. She would really take fatal injuries every time she counted her lives down and she wouldve gotten hit in her chest with the gun
 
I voted Returns because it's the only (?) superhero movie that the hero has a romance with the villain. And there probably isnt gonna be a Nolan Penguin, so... I guess this dude will do
 
Cos I had nothin to say on it. You said it was better. What do you want me to say? Repeat myself and say no I dont think so again? Sheesh.

If you feel that way and you admit that no one is changing anyone else's opinion, how about not saying anything?

But trying to make it look like I was just repeating what you said was misleading. Quote properly or don't do it.

No never said I was. But just cos you feel compelled to respond to everything I have to say doesnt obligate me to respond to all of your opinions.

No one's obligating you. You seem to gladly do it on your own account.

How did I make your post look like something is wasnt just by directly responding to one part of it? Unless you were not clear on what you said?

Ok, I'll just have to go to the basics:

"If you're comparing Burton's Penguin to the original, they're not the same."
^ looks like I'0m saying they're just different.

"If you're comparing Burton's Penguin to the original, they're not the same. Burton's is so much better."
^ looks like I'm saying it doesn't matter if they're different or not, Burton's so much better so who cares.


I dont know why you keep sayin that. Are you trying to start a fight or somethin? I said supernatural Catwoman didn't feel like a Batman character cos thats not the way Catwoman is. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Because it does feel like a Batman chgartacter since supernatural is part of many of the rogues gallery members.

Alright thats a fair comment. In that case I'm sorry for the confusion. I'll be more precise next time.

Thanks.

Joker having a white face and green hair by make up instead of chemicals didnt hinder him from feelin like the Joker to me. He still had the white face and green hair and red lips and purple suit, and all the Jokers evil chaotic nature. Visual changes are expected. I mean Batman wearing black rubber instead of spandex.

Oh, so changes are expected. In any case being a face-painter is not just a visual change since it's the chemical vat what triggers Joker's madness and that's erased from Nolan's version so someone could come and say "it doesn't feel like the comics character" because it removes a core part of it.

No? So he was a criminal before he went bad?

Was he a warm married man who was willing to teach young learners how to conquer a woman?

I didnt see them that way. Penguin in the comics looks, dresses, and speaks like an aristocrat. He doesn have flippers and black drool and chew fish like some savage animal.

Hey, what can I tell you. Visual changes are expected.

He doesnt live in the sewers. He doesnt employ circus freaks. He doesnt want to kill babies. Catwoman was an unhinged lunatic with supernatural ability with a vendetta against her boss.

They didnt feel like the Penguin and Catwoman.

Shall I list all those changes Nolan made to the Batman characters?
 
Shall I list all those changes Nolan made to the Batman characters?

I just did on the last page. And in most of those cases, I find the redone characters as much or even more interesting than thier comic book counterparts. For example, I find the abandoned, disfigured kid more interesting then a shooting mobster with big nose, and I find a guy who had a tragic romance and who was pushed over the edge by the death of his beloved fiance to be more interesting then a guy going whacko cause he looked different
 
Burgess version was better than DeVito. But no I didnt want campy Penguin. Why you think thats the only version of Penguin? Use serious murdering Penguin

But it doesn't make for interesting MOVIES. The Burgess Meredith version was class, but it wouldn't have translated as well into Burton's bizarro Batman world. Not only that he needed a story. I don't recall what Penguin's actual origin is, but I'm sure it's a lot less sad/tragic/interesting as what Burton did to the character. Perhaps the followthrough on the Penguin as a whole could've been done better (A little less grotesque maybe)...
 
Oh and Nolan never even hide the fact that he did change the characters and that he adjusted them for his world

Christopher Nolan: To be honest, myself and David Goyer, we really just kind of dove in and tried to do our version of the character simply based on our memories of the comics without going back to research.

It’s a very interesting thing to sit around and think with “Batman Begins” as a prism for how you view Batman, how does that effect the way you see the Joker. Who would that guy be in our universe?
(CBR interview, 2008)

Ultimately we just got caught up in that process of imagining how you would see a character like The Joker through the prism of what we did in the first film.(...) let me put it this way, our Joker - Heath's interpretation of The Joker has always been the absolute extreme of anarchy and chaos, effectively - he's pure evil through pure anarchy. (Empire Magazine #229)

thinking about what this icon is when viewed through the prism of Batman Begins. When viewed in the world we created, in the tone we created. And what we arrived at is somebody who is quite a serious guy, really, considering his name's the Joker and that turned out to be quite similar to his original conception. (IGN)

In comic books Joker was a clown, an entertainer who was like a ringmaster, always energetic and having fun and clownish fun when comitting crime. He was an entertainer, and thats why he was CLOWN prince of crime. Dancing, singing, using all the fun gadgets and circuses and amusement parks as his hideouts. He acted like a real clown, changing clothes very often, playing dress up. And he was a deformed freak. And from his inception throughout over 4 decades he was a thief stilling $ and diamonds. Nolan's Joker is an idealist and anarchist who, unlike his comic book counterpart, didnt care for his own life at all, didnt care for reputation, that hes gonna look bad in front of other Batman villains (like Hammil's Joker did too), didnt fear anyone and dint have an oversized ego. This Joker also either didnt feel or enjoyed pain, he was a masochist

Christopher Nolan: His chief motivation is that of an anarchist. I talked to Heath a lot about it even as we were finishing the script, and we both agreed that the most threatening force society faces is pure anarchy (CBR Interview, 2008)

I talked with him about the anarchic elements that I saw as being the more realistic Joker, the guy who would actually frighten an audience, and he'd already come up with a lot of that on his own. We talked a lot about Alex in A Clockwork Orange, people like that. He'd come up with the same things independently.(Empire Mag #229) CLockwork orange - not comic book Joker. They read the early comics only after they already wrote the script and developed the character

Christopher Nolan: We didn't look at those first stories until after we'd come up with our story and Jonah started working on the job. It's a weird thing. He called me up halfway through his job and said, "By the way, have you looked at his first and second appearance recently?"(IGN)


The point of all this, changing characters doesnt mean squat to me. Never did. The quality counts, whats interesting counts. And this take on Joker was certainly interesting, as was Penguin in BR.

BR and Nolan's movies changed characters radically to fit their vision, so what? They rocked, they were fleshed out, and they were surely interesting and most importantly - they served the story
 
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If you feel that way and you admit that no one is changing anyone else's opinion, how about not saying anything?

Why would I wanna do that? I'm not here to change anyones mind. I'm here to state what I think. That doesnt mean I have to respond to everything you or anyone else says.

But trying to make it look like I was just repeating what you said was misleading. Quote properly or don't do it.

Dont tell me what to do. I will quote what ever part of your posts I want to. I am not breaking any rules.

No one's obligating you. You seem to gladly do it on your own account.

Yes. So dont tell me what part of your posts to reply to. I'll reply to what ever ones I want of my own account. Thanks.

Ok, I'll just have to go to the basics:

"If you're comparing Burton's Penguin to the original, they're not the same."
^ looks like I'0m saying they're just different.

"If you're comparing Burton's Penguin to the original, they're not the same. Burton's is so much better."
^ looks like I'm saying it doesn't matter if they're different or not, Burton's so much better so who cares.

Unless someone is blind and cant read your original post then what youre sayin is obvious. Im quotin the pat of your post that deals with what I was saying. They were different to the comics and thats why I didnt like them. You saying they were better was there in your original post. Dont need me to repeat it when I'm not gonna address that.

Oh, so changes are expected. In any case being a face-painter is not just a visual change since it's the chemical vat what triggers Joker's madness and that's erased from Nolan's version so someone could come and say "it doesn't feel like the comics character" because it removes a core part of it.

No cos in the movie Jokers Chelsea grin is apparently what made him crazy cos of his father or wife leaving him depending on which of his stories you believe. Its the same principle. Joker suffered some physical change that made him 'always smiling' and drove him crazy. Bleach skin or cut smile, it was a physical deformity that drove him crazy. Nolan got the core right.

Was he a warm married man who was willing to teach young learners how to conquer a woman?

Actually yeah he was a nice guy who had a fiancee or wife, cant remember which it was but he had a woman he loved. Close enough.

Hey, what can I tell you. Visual changes are expected.

Big difference between changing spandex for rubber, white bleach skin for make up white skin, and a fat short man with a pointy nose into a full on freak dribbling black drool.

Shall I list all those changes Nolan made to the Batman characters?

Go for your life.
 
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Just a quick addition. Catwoman was not supernatural, it was just her talk. She was knocked out of the building yet her fall was significantly slowed down numerous times before the fall. The scene were the cats "examin" the unconscious Selina is a homage to the identical scene in the comics when Selina the prostitute was beat up to unconciousness and thrown out to the alley in the winter. Also, she never really dies, yet she counts her lives down after each fall or injury (falls that are all slowed down by sand or garden). Its just playing it close but surely nothing supernatural and Burton even says so black on white. As far as the bullets, its the same thing as with falling - it may appear like shes bulletproof, but if one takes a closer look, she never gets hit in a spot that would cause a fatal wound, only her arms and tights, never torso, and just when Shreck is about to shoot her in the stomach he rusn out of bullets. It was toying with the idea, but clearly nothing supernatural. If she was supernatural, she would simply fell of the window without slowing down. She would really take fatal injuries every time she counted her lives down and she wouldve gotten hit in her chest with the gun

I dont beleive any of that. Nobody takes four shots at close range from a gun like she did and is out prowling on the rooftops the next night or a few nights later or whenever it was when Bruce was out in his limo at the end and spotted her. Her scratches were still fresh on his face so it had to be days. Shreck must have the worst aim ever if he shot four times to a person standing in front of him and only hit her arm or leg.
 
She got shot in her arms and thighs only, so thats not fatal. And also, none of her falls were. And it wasnt days later, but it was certainly less then a month. She wasnt actually prowling on the rooftops, just the alleys, the shot at the end was a shot added in the last minute, so it wasnt originally part of the story,n it was just a last minute addition to show that shes really alive

And again, if she was really supernatural it wouldve been shown more clear - she wouldnt fall into sands or have her falls slowed down 4 times, and she wouldve been shot in places that would cause fatal or serious injuries
 
Oh and Nolan never even hide the fact that he did change the characters and that he adjusted them for his world

Christopher Nolan: To be honest, myself and David Goyer, we really just kind of dove in and tried to do our version of the character simply based on our memories of the comics without going back to research.

It’s a very interesting thing to sit around and think with “Batman Begins” as a prism for how you view Batman, how does that effect the way you see the Joker. Who would that guy be in our universe?
(CBR interview, 2008)

Ultimately we just got caught up in that process of imagining how you would see a character like The Joker through the prism of what we did in the first film.(...) let me put it this way, our Joker - Heath's interpretation of The Joker has always been the absolute extreme of anarchy and chaos, effectively - he's pure evil through pure anarchy. (Empire Magazine #229)

thinking about what this icon is when viewed through the prism of Batman Begins. When viewed in the world we created, in the tone we created. And what we arrived at is somebody who is quite a serious guy, really, considering his name's the Joker and that turned out to be quite similar to his original conception. (IGN)

In comic books Joker was a clown, an entertainer who was like a ringmaster, always energetic and having fun and clownish fun when comitting crime. He was an entertainer, and thats why he was CLOWN prince of crime. Dancing, singing, using all the fun gadgets and circuses and amusement parks as his hideouts. He acted like a real clown, changing clothes very often, playing dress up. And he was a deformed freak. And from his inception throughout over 4 decades he was a thief stilling $ and diamonds. Nolan's Joker is an idealist and anarchist who, unlike his comic book counterpart, didnt care for his own life at all, didnt care for reputation, that hes gonna look bad in front of other Batman villains (like Hammil's Joker did too), didnt fear anyone and dint have an oversized ego. This Joker also either didnt feel or enjoyed pain, he was a masochist

Christopher Nolan: His chief motivation is that of an anarchist. I talked to Heath a lot about it even as we were finishing the script, and we both agreed that the most threatening force society faces is pure anarchy (CBR Interview, 2008)

I talked with him about the anarchic elements that I saw as being the more realistic Joker, the guy who would actually frighten an audience, and he'd already come up with a lot of that on his own. We talked a lot about Alex in A Clockwork Orange, people like that. He'd come up with the same things independently.(Empire Mag #229) CLockwork orange - not comic book Joker. They read the early comics only after they already wrote the script and developed the character

Christopher Nolan: We didn't look at those first stories until after we'd come up with our story and Jonah started working on the job. It's a weird thing. He called me up halfway through his job and said, "By the way, have you looked at his first and second appearance recently?"(IGN)


The point of all this, changing characters doesnt mean squat to me. Never did. The quality counts, whats interesting counts. And this take on Joker was certainly interesting, as was Penguin in BR.

BR and Nolan's movies changed characters radically to fit their vision, so what? They rocked, they were fleshed out, and they were surely interesting and most importantly - they served the story

Funny how they refer to Ledger's Joker as "his version" of the character. It's like Burton had "his versions" of characters too. And, by extension, every director with a vision.






Why would I wanna do that? I'm not here to change anyones mind. I'm here to state what I think. That doesnt mean I have to respond to everything you or anyone else says.

And yet you do. That's why I can't buy the 'You were just statin your own opinion. I have nothing to say on it' part of yours.

Dont tell me what to do. I will quote what ever part of your posts I want to. I am not breaking any rules.



Yes. So dont tell me what part of your posts to reply to. I'll reply to what ever ones I want of my own account. Thanks.

I'm not telling you what to reply or not. But not to misquote me in order to give my post a sense it didn't have.

I wouldn't tell you what to do, but if you misquote me then I'll be there pointing it out. Not against the rules either.

Unless someone is blind and cant read your original post then what youre sayin is obvious. Im quotin the pat of your post that deals with what I was saying. They were different to the comics and thats why I didnt like them. You saying they were better was there in your original post. Dont need me to repeat it when I'm not gonna address that.

Yes and that way you can reply "I know that. Thats why I said it doesnt feel like Batman characters."

Oh, El Payaso was saying something that was too obvious. According to your misquote of me.

No cos in the movie Jokers Chelsea grin is apparently what made him crazy cos of his father or wife leaving him depending on which of his stories you believe. Its the same principle. Joker suffered some physical change that made him 'always smiling' and drove him crazy. Bleach skin or cut smile, it was a physical deformity that drove him crazy. Nolan got the core right.

Oh ok. It's like it was a physical deformnity was made Oswald Cobblepot a pariah who then tried to recover what he felt was his birthright. Just like in the comics. Deformity being a big nose, a bigh belly or flipper-hands. Burton got the core right.

Actually yeah he was a nice guy who had a fiancee or wife, cant remember which it was but he had a woman he loved. Close enough.

There was Mary Alice Anders a woman who he never ever married to become a kind-hearted husband. Mary Alice married someone else and never died. Not even close.

Big difference between changing spandex for rubber, white bleach skin for make up white skin, and a fat short man with a pointy nose into a full on freak dribbling black drool.

So Burton's Penguin wasn't a fat short man with a pointy nose? Do I have to post a picture?

And yes, going from blue/greay spandex to all black armour, that a big change also.

Go for your life.

Someone else did it, sorry.
 
And yet you do. That's why I can't buy the 'You were just statin your own opinion. I have nothing to say on it' part of yours.

What do you mean yet I do? I choose to respond to whatever posts or part of posts I like. I dont care what you buy. I'm tellin you like it is.

I'm not telling you what to reply or not. But not to misquote me in order to give my post a sense it didn't have.

That is telling me what to reply to. If I want to reply to just one point out of seven points in your post then I will. The only way I could mis quote you is to completely rewrite what you're sayin.

Yes and that way you can reply "I know that. Thats why I said it doesnt feel like Batman characters."

Oh, El Payaso was saying something that was too obvious. According to your misquote of me.

Thats not a misquote. You were sayin they were not like Batman characters. You were admitting it.

Oh ok. It's like it was a physical deformnity was made Oswald Cobblepot a pariah who then tried to recover what he felt was his birthright. Just like in the comics. Deformity being a big nose, a bigh belly or flipper-hands. Burton got the core right.

No Oswald Cobblepot was not physically deformed in the comics. He was just a short fat guy with a pointy nose.

250px-ThePenguin_01.jpg



danny_devito_as_the_penguin_wallpaper_-_1440x900.jpg



One has a pointy nose, the other has a pointy nose, flippered hands, white face, black spit, and pointy teeth. You see the obvious difference.

There was Mary Alice Anders a woman who he never ever married to become a kind-hearted husband. Mary Alice married someone else and never died. Not even close.

Yes it is. It shows Ock was a nice guy who once had a good woman and was happy in love before he became Ock. Raimi obviously got that from there.

So Burton's Penguin wasn't a fat short man with a pointy nose? Do I have to post a picture?

Post all the pictures you like. When ya do I'll point out to you just how he was so much more than just a short fat guy with a pointy nose. He was a full on disgusting looking freak. Not like a short fat dapper gentleman.

And yes, going from blue/greay spandex to all black armour, that a big change also.

Yeah so what? That dont change anything about Batmans characteristics.
 
What do you mean yet I do? I choose to respond to whatever posts or part of posts I like. I dont care what you buy. I'm tellin you like it is.

That is telling me what to reply to. If I want to reply to just one point out of seven points in your post then I will. The only way I could mis quote you is to completely rewrite what you're sayin.

Thats not a misquote. You were sayin they were not like Batman characters. You were admitting it.

My original point was that yes, it’s one of the characters who was changed the most but it was all for the better since the original character is quite bland.

No Oswald Cobblepot was not physically deformed in the comics. He was just a short fat guy with a pointy nose.

He was short and fat with a big nose and he was tortured by his classmates because of that, making him feel he was deformed and abnormal. Oswald grew a bitter man. The core was kept and some parts were exagerated or changed as in every adaptation.

In Burton’s case he gave Oswald real reasons to feel abnormal, not just a big belly and pointy nose as in the comics. Burton also exagerated the pariah feeling, Oswald wasn’t just mocked by classmates, he was thrown away like garbage by his own parents. Compared to the roiginal character’s story, Burton’s take is brilliant.

Yes it is. It shows Ock was a nice guy who once had a good woman and was happy in love before he became Ock. Raimi obviously got that from there.

As Burton got the tortured soul bitter Oswald from the comics but altered some things.

Post all the pictures you like. When ya do I'll point out to you just how he was so much more than just a short fat guy with a pointy nose. He was a full on disgusting looking freak. Not like a short fat dapper gentleman.


He tried to turn into a gentleman and in fact dressed himself classy. Of course that couldn’t hide his hideous nature.

But Octopus didn’t wear green and yellow leotards either, did he?

Yeah so what? That dont change anything about Batmans characteristics.

Opposite to the Penguin, Batman has little room for improvement he's such a great character. Oswald[FONT=&quot] was changed a lot because the original had to be improved. When you say he didn’t feel like the original character I’d just say ‘good’ in this case.

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In Burton’s case he gave Oswald real reasons to feel abnormal, not just a big belly and pointy nose as in the comics. Burton also exagerated the pariah feeling, Oswald wasn’t just mocked by classmates, he was thrown away like garbage by his own parents. Compared to the roiginal character’s story, Burton’s take is brilliant.

I'm a big fan of the comic book Penguin, and I think his story would have worked just as well. I mean Selina Kyle in the comics is a well to do beautiful woman who socializes in Gotham's rich social circles. She is not a lowly pathetic secretary and social pariah, but Burton chose to portray her that way, and it worked. It could have worked for Penguin, too.

But Payaso is right regarding the rejected nature of Penguin. Penguin craves acceptance to society more than anything. That's why he likes to pretend he his some kind of high class gentleman, by wearing the tux, the monocle, the cigarette holder. He is like the gentleman of crime. He thinks he's a cut above, even though he's as bad as the Joker, Two Face, and the other criminal freaks of Gotham.

Although Burton chose to approach it from the abandoned child angle, it still worked.

But Octopus didn’t wear green and yellow leotards either, did he?

Ock's had a lot of different costumes. The green and yellow leotards, business suits, and this absolutely horrible metallic like costume he wore for a while.

But here's a cool fact regarding both Penguin and Doc Ock in the movies, both of their unique looks were adapted into the comics at various points. Penguin's had the flipper hands, and pointed teeth in some stories. I think he's even had the long hair that DeVito had. Doc Ock has sported the trench coat look several times since Spider-Man 2's release, and his tentacles have had the red lights in the tentacle claws.

I think Pfeiffer's Catwoman is the first version of the character to sport an all black Catwoman costume complete with mask. To my knowledge, she's never had that prior to Returns.
 
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My original point was that yes, it’s one of the characters who was changed the most but it was all for the better since the original character is quite bland.

Thats your opinion. The Penguin stood the test of time as been one of Batmans most prominent rogues for decades. If Burtons characterization was so great it would have been incorporated into the comics. But as it stands DeVito Penguin repulsed audiences, and was part of the reason for the backlash the movie got.

He was short and fat with a big nose and he was tortured by his classmates because of that, making him feel he was deformed and abnormal. Oswald grew a bitter man. The core was kept and some parts were exagerated or changed as in every adaptation.

Oswald in the comics grew up under normal circumstances with a mother and father, who was bullied cos he was short and fat and resembled a Penguin. DeVito Penguin was thrown in the river cos he was a freak and was saved by penguins and then grew up with a circus that liked to abduct and kills kids. They couldnt have been more different.

In Burton’s case he gave Oswald real reasons to feel abnormal, not just a big belly and pointy nose as in the comics. Burton also exagerated the pariah feeling, Oswald wasn’t just mocked by classmates, he was thrown away like garbage by his own parents.

Years of bullying and torment can be just as powerful as rejection by your parents. Teenagers have committed suicide cos of bullying in school. Burton had no reason to do what he did with Penguin. Comic Penguins was story was just as solid.

He tried to turn into a gentleman and in fact dressed himself classy. Of course that couldn’t hide his hideous nature.

He only did that cos Schreck wanted him to be mayor. Before Schreck suggested that he was hiding away writing his baby kill list.

But Octopus didn’t wear green and yellow leotards either, did he?

No self respecting director would even attempt to sell a character dressed like that to todays mainstream audience.

Opposite to the Penguin, Batman has little room for improvement he's such a great character. Oswald was changed a lot because the original had to be improved. When you say he didn’t feel like the original character I’d just say ‘good’ in this case.[

No Batmans costume change was a necessity cos you couldnt find a guy in grey spandex with blue underwear on the outside scary or badass. Youd laugh your ass off. Penguin lookin like a dapper little gentleman could have worked.
 
Thats your opinion. The Penguin stood the test of time as been one of Batmans most prominent rogues for decades. If Burtons characterization was so great it would have been incorporated into the comics. But as it stands DeVito Penguin repulsed audiences, and was part of the reason for the backlash the movie got.

Well, Robin has been there for long and I haven't seen any world-acclaimed movie rendition of him, so I rule out the 'been there for so long so it has to be good' theory.

And lol at the "audiences repulsing Penguin." BR was the second most BO grossing movies back in 1992. The only problem BR had was that people like soccer moms and of the mentality couldn't eat their Happy Meals in peace.

But you desperately need some enlightening since you seem to ignore how the Burton's version influienced the character:

Wikipedia said:
Subsequent Batman animated series have featured the Penguin in depictions that alternate between deformed outcast and high-profile aristocrat. Despite his popularity, he has repeatedly been named among the worst of Batman's enemies,[2][3] though the DeVito Penguin was named the fourth greatest Batman villain by Premiere.[4] The deformed version of the character has also appeared in comics, most notably in the miniseries Batman: The Long Halloween and its sequel Dark Victory.

So you see, Burton's version influenced comics AND the 1990's animated series.

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_(comics)

Oswald in the comics grew up under normal circumstances with a mother and father, who was bullied cos he was short and fat and resembled a Penguin. DeVito Penguin was thrown in the river cos he was a freak and was saved by penguins and then grew up with a circus that liked to abduct and kills kids. They couldnt have been more different.

Ok, more information is obviously needed here:

Wikipedia said:
Born Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot, the Penguin was bullied as a child for his short stature, obesity, and beak-like nose. In some media, his fingers are fused together, resulting in flipper-like hands. Several stories relate that he was forced as a child to always carry an umbrella by his over-protective mother, due to his father dying of pneumonia after being drenched in a downpour. He is an outcast in his rich, high society family; their rejection drives him to become a criminal.

So, again, his family was far from normal and they rejected him. Just like in Burton's movie. See?

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_(comics)

Years of bullying and torment can be just as powerful as rejection by your parents. Teenagers have committed suicide cos of bullying in school. Burton had no reason to do what he did with Penguin. Comic Penguins was story was just as solid.

As solid as close to what Burton did. Once you actually know that story. ;)

He only did that cos Schreck wanted him to be mayor. Before Schreck suggested that he was hiding away writing his baby kill list.

Wrong again.

Penguin: "Thing is... I've been lingering down here too long. It's high time for me to ascend. To re-emerge... with your help, your know-how, your savvy. I wasn't born in the sewer, you know. I come from... [He indicates a hole up to the surface] ...like you."

Penguin wanted to get back what was his heritage.

No self respecting director would even attempt to sell a character dressed like that to todays mainstream audience.

Like no good director would keep a bland character the exact same when he can improve it. :up:

No Batmans costume change was a necessity cos you couldnt find a guy in grey spandex with blue underwear on the outside scary or badass. Youd laugh your ass off. Penguin lookin like a dapper little gentleman could have worked.

Absolutely.

And Penguin as a monster-man also worked.
 
Well, Robin has been there for long and I haven't seen any world-acclaimed movie rendition of him, so I rule out the 'been there for so long so it has to be good' theory.

Dr Doom is like the flagship Marvel villain and theres been no good movie rendition of him either. The Phoenix character in X-Men is like one of the landmark X-Men storylines and that was butchered in X-Men 3.

I dont let the failings of the movie studios dictate whats a good character.

And lol at the "audiences repulsing Penguin." BR was the second most BO grossing movies back in 1992. The only problem BR had was that people like soccer moms and of the mentality couldn't eat their Happy Meals in peace.
That must one hell of a legion of soccer moms then if they had enough influence to not only make WB drop Burtons vision but to also have a worldwide business like McDonalds kill its promotion of the movie too. Had to be some mighty big numbers to influence business decisions like that. Numbers talk.

So you see, Burton's version influenced comics AND the 1990's animated series.

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_%28comics%29
Wikkipedia the website that can be edited by any tom dick or harry. WB forced Bruce Timm to model Penguin after DeVito. Thats a fact cos the show was released shortly after the movie. Same with makin Selina Kyle a blonde like Pfeiffer. As soon as the new Batman Adventures series came along Timm returned both characters to their visual roots. Penguin looked more like Burgess Merediths design, and Catwoman was a brunette again.

Adapting the image into Long Halloween and Dark Victory? You mean the series where Penguin appeared in like 5 panels between the two stories?

Ok, more information is obviously needed here:

So, again, his family was far from normal and they rejected him. Just like in Burton's movie. See?

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_(comics)
That is all false info too. The Penguin never had flippered hands. Ever. Neither as a child or an adult. Read this

Secret_Origins_Special_Vol_2_1.jpg


Thats the official origin for the Penguin. His family also never rejected him either. His dad was dead and his mom forced him to carry an umbrella but he was never rejected from his family.

As solid as close to what Burton did. Once you actually know that story.
And I do. His family never rejected him. Burton got it wrong. Read that comic I posted. Prove you wrong.

Wrong again.

Penguin: "Thing is... I've been lingering down here too long. It's high time for me to ascend. To re-emerge... with your help, your know-how, your savvy. I wasn't born in the sewer, you know. I come from... [He indicates a hole up to the surface] ...like you."

Penguin wanted to get back what was his heritage.
No youre wrong. He was talkin about going back to live up on the streets rather the sewers. Thats what he means by ascending and remerging from under Gotham where he was currently living. He was never talkin about rising into high society or whatever cos he had no idea where he came from. Thats why he had to research his name. But we know he didnt even really care about that. He just wanted access to the birth records so he could get the names of all the first born sons to kill for revenge. It was Schreck who put him up to the whole mayor thing.

Like no good director would keep a bland character the exact same when he can improve it.
Yeah you said that already. But DeVito got a razzie nomination, Returns got a backlash, and the comics never gave him the kind of characterization Burton did. I dont consider that an improvement

Absolutely.

And Penguin as a monster-man also worked.
Not for me it didnt. Im glad hes never been portrayed like that since.
 
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That must one hell of a legion of soccer moms then if they had enough influence to not only make WB drop Burtons vision but to also have a worldwide business like McDonalds kill its promotion of the movie too. Had to be some mighty big numbers to influence business decisions like that. Numbers talk.
The times were different then, as is evident from the fact that we didn't see this kind of backlash for the equally adult themes of TDK. Returns really was quite a scandalous movie at the time. I was seven years old back then, and I begged my parents to let me see it, but they wouldn't take me to it even though they let me see the first Batman movie. They told me that it wasn't right for a child of my age and that Batman killed cops in it. Apparently, there were a lot of negative rumors about it.
 
I love Returns but Batman 89 I love it more and I thought Keaton did great job in the first one not that he wasn't bad in BR.
 
The times were different then, as is evident from the fact that we didn't see this kind of backlash for the equally adult themes of TDK.

Actually there was some fuss with TDK as well (http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/11/dark-knight-controversy.html), although nothing to the extent of what happened with Returns (http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/09/nightmare-that-tastes-like-candy-was.html), mainly due to the fact that back in 92 there were no superhero movies that werent suitable fo kids (if you dont count 89's Punisher)
 
I forgot about the line where Penguin says "Just the ***** I been lookin for..." I'm sure that didn't sit well with parents... LOL
 
I forgot about the line where Penguin says "Just the ***** I been lookin for..." I'm sure that didn't sit well with parents... LOL

Yeah. God bless my parents....my mom and dad actually burst out laughing when Devito says that at the screening we went to (I was 14 in '92 and knew what the innuendo meant).
 
here's a cool pic i'd never seen before of the premiere of Batman Returns


75506468.jpg
 
Nice, but none of them look like they're dressed for a movie premiere lol.
 
Summer in Los Angeles is pretty hot for tuxedos I guess eh
 

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