The Dark Knight Rises Riddle Me This: The Riddler Characterization Thread

[Ace of Knaves]

But some of his points do make sense, in a twisted sorta way. He basically does what a lot of us would want to do deep down, but we have morals and care about wrong and right, he doesn't. He's like a stripped down, bare primal instinct human being. Well thats how I view him in TDK anyway.

 

[kid dropper]

totally- "their morals, their code, its a bad joke. dropped at the first sign of trouble. theyre only as good as the world allows them to be" call me a nihilist or cynical or whatever but truer words have never been spoken on the moral weakness and hypocrisy of mainstream society and the common man

 

[DawnWarrior]

no, he didn't view what he was doing as being heroic. The Joker knows he is evil and finds no redeeming quality in his actions, he just does what he does.

In his mind, though, he's showing people the truth and bringing the world to its natural state, which sounds kind of heroic.

 

[DawnWarrior]

The Riddler comes off as very inteligent, but since he thinks that the "Powerful men" of Gotham are corrupted, I'm sure that The Riddler won't be someone working for the FBI or anything totally important. Most likely he will have a job somewhat above average. Maybe he wants to take down the "powerful" (wealthy) people of Gotham. (or maybe he just doesn't like Dent lol) Either way, it all comes down to Batman playing The Riddler's deadly game. But what kind of "game" could The Riddler have in mind.

Powerful men of Gotham? Hmm. Who's the wealthiest and most powerful man in Gotham? Bruce Wayne. This gives Nygma's mission another agenda against Batman, in that he thinks that the powerful men are evil and that Bruce Wayne is the worst one of all.

 

[Ronny Shade]

But some of his points do make sense, in a twisted sorta way. He basically does what a lot of us would want to do deep down, but we have morals and care about wrong and right, he doesn't. He's like a stripped down, bare primal instinct human being. Well thats how I view him in TDK anyway.

Yeah, in a lot of ways they make way more sense than what Batman says/does. I found myself rooting for Joker throughout most of the movie. His complete purity, lack of hesitation and the ability to identify and pursue is something I find very very enviable.

 

[Mindreaper21]

Powerful men of Gotham? Hmm. Who's the wealthiest and most powerful man in Gotham? Bruce Wayne. This gives Nygma's mission another agenda against Batman, in that he thinks that the powerful men are evil and that Bruce Wayne is the worst one of all.

Exactly, so if The Riddler captured Bruce Wayne, it would be an amazing challenge to see how Bruce escapes to become Batman without The Riddler descovering his identity. (in one part of the movie)t:

 

[Mindreaper21]

In his mind, though, he's showing people the truth and bringing the world to its natural state, which sounds kind of heroic.

Not really, because he wouldn't have put those people on the fairies in a "Blow eachother up or I blow both of you up" situation. The Joker manipulates people to where they can make their own crazy assumptions, and it's fun for him to see what they will do. Like lab rats or something. He's also a compulsive liar. He doesn't want you to know the truth, but wrather what he feels you will believe is the truth. The Joker see's no boundaries in anything, and for those who try to set boundaries for themselves, he breaks them. It's as fun a breaking down a brick wall with a sledge hammer to see what will happen with the pieces.

 

[Melkay]

Nolan's Joker probably had a traumatic experience that has a weight in his present (he constantly licks his scars and brings them up in conversation... he certainly cares about them). That traumatic experience probably made him believe that humanity is essentially evil, chaotic and irrational, and every other attempt to behave in noble ways was hypocritical and provided by fragile social structures.

In other words, someone was very bad to him, he started to behave in a primal evil way and his main goal was to corrupt people's morals, something he saw like 'purification', rather than corruption. Basically, he wanted to strip off any sense of morality in everybody by antagonizing morality to survival.

'You either get corrupt and evil, or you die.'

And why did he wanted to do that? To see that (given the right circumstances) everybody else was able to become what he became... crazy and ruthless. He didn't want to feel so alienated in a normal world, so he tried to change the entire world to feel good about himself again. The Killing Joke at it's best, but...

... if you think that's heroic, you guys should have your heads examined.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yeah, in a lot of ways they make way more sense than what Batman says/does. I found myself rooting for Joker throughout most of the movie. His complete purity, lack of hesitation and the ability to identify and pursue is something I find very very enviable.

Exactly how I feel.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Nolan's Joker probably had a traumatic experience that has a weight in his present (he constantly licks his scars and brings them up in conversation... he certainly cares about them). That traumatic experience probably made him believe that humanity is essentially evil, chaotic and irrational, and every other attempt to behave in noble ways was hypocritical and provided by fragile social structures.

In other words, someone was very bad to him, he started to behave in a primal evil way and his main goal was to corrupt people's morals, something he saw like 'purification', rather than corruption. Basically, he wanted to strip off any sense of morality in everybody by antagonizing morality to survival.

'You either get corrupt and evil, or you die.'

And why did he wanted to do that? To see that (given the right circumstances) everybody else was able to become what he became... crazy and ruthless. He didn't want to feel so alienated in a normal world, so he tried to change the entire world to feel good about himself again. The Killing Joke at it's best, but...

... if you think that's heroic, you guys should have your heads examined.

And again, exactly how I feel. It's not heroic, not atall, BUT it could be seen as justifiable in a twisted sorta way, if you get what I mean.

 

[Melkay]

I do get what you say: Lenin saw what the tzarist regime did to his brother, and was trying to bring a new and noble socialist order to Russia... at all costs. And Hitler did what he did to bring Germany back from economic depression and global humiliation. And Truman threw the bomb because it was necessary to end the war.

What they all did was, in a way, justifiable, if you get what I mean.

And despicable too.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Nolan's Joker probably had a traumatic experience that has a weight in his present (he constantly licks his scars and brings them up in conversation... he certainly cares about them). That traumatic experience probably made him believe that humanity is essentially evil, chaotic and irrational, and every other attempt to behave in noble ways was hypocritical and provided by fragile social structures.

In other words, someone was very bad to him, he started to behave in a primal evil way and his main goal was to corrupt people's morals, something he saw like 'purification', rather than corruption. Basically, he wanted to strip off any sense of morality in everybody by antagonizing morality to survival.

'You either get corrupt and evil, or you die.'

And why did he wanted to do that? To see that (given the right circumstances) everybody else was able to become what he became... crazy and ruthless. He didn't want to feel so alienated in a normal world, so he tried to change the entire world to feel good about himself again. The Killing Joke at it's best, but...

... if you think that's heroic, you guys should have your heads examined.

Wow. that's not how I see it at all.

The Joker in TDK was fed up with all the bulls***. Society runs on bulls***. It's his job to point out how stupid everything is. how fragile it is and how pointless. I thought it was very selfless.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Wow. that's not how I see it at all.

The Joker in TDK was fed up with all the bulls***. Society runs on bulls***. It's his job to point out how stupid everything is. how fragile it is and how pointless. I thought it was very selfless.

Yea but what he says about "purification" sorta matches up with what your saying. He's basically trying to show that what everyone believes in, good and bad, wrong and right is a bad joke. And he wants to make people realize or purify them into thinking that, the hard way.

 

[protoctista]

I liked his point about shooting a hundred hookers and no-one cares, but killing a judge - everyone panics. The hypocrisy in our value systems. We'd rather the system stays intact, whatever the cost, because without the system we're not secure.

Batman won't kill. It's the system he has in place to make sure he's not crazy, to make sure he's not an executioner - so that he knows he's doing the right thing. And to preserve that system, he allows countless others to die. The Joker wants to point out the hypocrisy in that.

 

[DawnWarrior]

And why did he wanted to do that? To see that (given the right circumstances) everybody else was able to become what he became... crazy and ruthless. He didn't want to feel so alienated in a normal world, so he tried to change the entire world to feel good about himself again. The Killing Joke at it's best, but...

... if you think that's heroic, you guys should have your heads examined.

I struggled with phrasing it exactly the right way. I didn't mean to say that I found his actions heroic, just that they could be twisted so that he saw them that way.

 

[Melkay]

Wow. that's not how I see it at all.

Well, that's how Batman saw it.

BATMAN: "What are you trying to prove? That deep down, everyone's exactly as you? You're alone."

Look at the Joker's face in that moment. That line touched a string inside him.

And that was a concept directly lifted from The Killing Joke. Agree or not, that seems to be the direction they took. Joker looks pretty sad/frustrated there.

The Joker in TDK was fed up with all the bulls***. Society runs on bulls***. It's his job to point out how stupid everything is. how fragile it is and how pointless. I thought it was very selfless.

Society runs on bull****? On what do you base that? Most societies are flawed, I give you that... some more than others. But every social system is based on human interaction, and human interaction is the key and the basis for most of the things we enjoy nowadays. Take music, for example... if it wasn't for society, and certain rules and social orders, we wouldn't have many creations like music, including the very same music your brother sings and plays.

Many coceptions about society held by many citizens are far from being accurate, and many stand on hipocrisy or just to guarantee power and status quo in absurd ways... but we gotta control the rebel in us and ask ourselves: "how many things I wouldn't have if it wasn't for social rules, for cooperation and for order?"

Society has lots of bull****, but it doesn't run on it. It's not its essence. Human interaction and cooperation is as essential and natural to man as egoism and survival instincts.

Joker is the id.
Batman is the superego.
And for all of you who know a little about Freud, think what you could actually do without the Superego.

He's basically trying to show that what everyone believes in, good and bad, wrong and right is a bad joke.

Is it? I don't think so.

And I guess he's intelligent enough to realize that. But he's a terrific liar. His reason may not be ideological at all... they're personal. He's trying to feel better about himself. So when he says that it wasn't personal, it really is.

I liked his point about shooting a hundred hookers and no-one cares, but killing a judge - everyone panics. The hypocrisy in our value systems. We'd rather the system stays intact, whatever the cost, because without the system we're not secure.

Yeah, the system has many flaws and what the Joker says it's true. But he wants to bring the entire system down to take on those flaws.
Quite Leninist, I might say.
And no, without the system we wouldn't feel sure. We may reform the system, we may change even its foundations, but without social systems we wouldn't be sure.

Batman won't kill. It's the system he has in place to make sure he's not crazy, to make sure he's not an executioner - so that he knows he's doing the right thing. And to preserve that system, he allows countless others to die.

How?

The Joker wants to point out the hypocrisy in that.

"[I don't make any plans]... I just do things."

"I just try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control really are."

And yet the guy designed some of the most meticulously intricate plans in cinema history.
And when things didn't work according to his plan (the ferry people didn't blow each others up) he surely looked frustrated and pathetic, because, for the first time, he couldn't control the outcome he was expecting. That one time.

Fighting hypocrisy with hypocrisy. Great method.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Well, that's how Batman saw it.

I know. But Batman doesn't understand Joker. He never has. Not in the comics, not in television and not in TDK.

BATMAN: "What are you trying to prove? That deep down, everyone's exactly as you? You're alone."

Look at the Joker's face in that moment. That line touched a string inside him.

He is alone. He's the only one who sees the world for what it is. This is both a badge of pride for him and depressing. Like being king of the world...there's nobody else you can relate to. This is also why he made Harvey into Two-Face. He wanted a kindred spirit.

And that was a concept directly lifted from The Killing Joke. Agree or not, that seems to be the direction they took. Joker looks pretty sad/frustrated there.

Obviously there's frustration in the character, but I thought the interpretation was completely different in TDK than it was in TKJ.

Society runs on bull****? On what do you base that? Most societies are flawed, I give you that... some more than others. But every social system is based on human interaction, and human interaction is the key and the basis for most of the things we enjoy nowadays. Take music, for example... if it wasn't for society, and certain rules and social orders, we wouldn't have many creations like music, including the very same music your brother sings and plays.

For the world to exist the way it does, society is necessary. Yes. But the way it exists is not ideal. Joker sees the whole thing as a misconstruction. Society was built wrong. Look at the fundamentals and you'll see they're unfair.

Do I like society? Yes and no. there's a very large part of me that hates it and agrees with the Joker that it should be displayed for the farce that it is. Our music does that in a less destructive way than blowing up judges and burning DA's faces off. Partially because we're not brave enough to do that, partially because we know that if we do we'll be destroyed and no longer allowed the freedom that we do have. And partially because we're to empathetic to bring that kind of misery. But on the other hand, society offers comforts that anarchy does not. Joker doesn't need these comforts, therefore he can go all the way.

The message is basically this: Nobody knows what life is all about, so stop acting like what you do is "the right thing." My brother and I say this with art, Joker does it with homicide.

Many coceptions about society held by many citizens are far from being accurate, and many stand on hipocrisy or just to guarantee power and status quo in absurd ways... but we gotta control the rebel in us and ask ourselves: "how many things I wouldn't have if it wasn't for social rules, for cooperation and for order?"

Joker doesn't control himself. He acts on impulse. That's what I find so beautiful about him. Somebody like me is constantly having to repress half of the things I feel because they'll get me arrested or shunned by society.

When we meet him, Joker was already shunned by society, so he doesn't get any of society's comforts. Therefore he doesn't need the security blanket society offers, since to him it does nothing. He's free to do what he wants and what he wants it to show everyone what is wrong with society.

Society has lots of bull****, but it doesn't run on it. It's not its essence. Human interaction and cooperation is as essential and natural to man as egoism and survival instincts.

homicide is pretty natural to man as well.

Joker is the id.
Batman is the superego.
And for all of you who know a little about Freud, think what you could actually do without the Superego.

That fixation on "doing" that society has created is what the Joker wants to denounce. What is so great about society? Where has it gotten us? This? The Joker looks around at the world man has built and is unimpressed.

This changes for Joker when he meets Batman. Batman is the only product of society that Joker really loves. But in order for Batman to be what he should be, he needs a Joker.

 

[Melkay]

I know. But Batman doesn't understand Joker. He never has. Not in the comics, not in television and not in TDK.

What makes you different?

Bruce didn't understand him at the beginning, but he seemed to get into his psyche more to the end. Not open to interpretation? Maybe.

He is alone. He's the only one who sees the world for what it is. This is both a badge of pride for him and depressing. Like being king of the world...there's nobody else you can relate to. This is also why he made Harvey into Two-Face. He wanted a kindred spirit.

Then Batman DO understands him. I patiently wait until you make up your mind.

Obviously there's frustration in the character, but I thought the interpretation was completely different in TDK than it was in TKJ.

Based on what? I just wanna know, because you seem to be contradicting a popular and common opinion.

For the world to exist the way it does, society is necessary. Yes. But the way it exists is not ideal. Joker sees the whole thing as a misconstruction. Society was built wrong. Look at the fundamentals and you'll see they're unfair.

I see them. I still don't see how they're unfair. What kind of society do you mean? Let's stick to the current ones... Authoritarian dictatorship, socialdemocratic government, representative democracy, socialism with open market, monarchy with legislative and executive power, symbolic monarchy...
.... you name it. We'll see how is it that they're unfair and what may be the cause of it. And I guarantee you, you won't get an easy answer in no way.

Because you'll have to ask yourself in which ways are they unfair, and in most cases the answer will have a direct parallel in Life. Life is mostly unfair for many people. There are contradiction intentions, apathy, lacks of natural resources, failed economic and social ideologies, unfulfilled expectations, good and bad intentions...... zillions of reasons in which life is unfair. Hell, just the act of courtship in the first world is unfair to many men who don't know how to attract the women he wants, and women surely don't make it easy... they have their reason for it.

Should men fight for a new social order in which women are their sex slaves?
You may answer 'yes', but the answer is no. You struggle against obstacles in the best possible way without harming others. And that's what the Joker couldn't afford to do, because he was mentally scarred. Batman is scarred too, but not enough to desire the destruction of society to feel better about himself.

Do I like society? Yes and no. there's a very large part of me that hates it and agrees with the Joker that it should be displayed for the farce that it is. Our music does that in a less destructive way than blowing up judges and burning DA's faces off. Partially because we're not brave enough to do that, partially because we know that if we do we'll be destroyed and no longer allowed the freedom that we do have. And partially because we're to empathetic to bring that kind of misery. But on the other hand, society offers comforts that anarchy does not. Joker doesn't need these comforts, therefore he can go all the way.

Comfort? Do you think it only gives you comfort? Come on. For starters, social systems gave you the TOOLS to overthrow them. They gave you music, they gave you music history and precendts to get inspired from, they gave you social awareness, they gave you language, they gave you film, they gave you comics, they gave you Batman, and they gave you Christopher Nolan.

And it even gave you the frame of opportunity to seize those things.

To turn against that is the real hypocrisy. You can struggle to perfect social norms, but you don't turn against the whole system. And not because you're not brave and cold enough... it's because there are lots of good things that you don't notice so much.

'People remember more the times they cry than the times they laugh'... there you go, make a tatoo with that phrase and keep up with your music.

The message is basically this: Nobody knows what life is all about, so stop acting like what you do is "the right thing." My brother and I say this with art, Joker does it with homicide.

That's why the Joker (and Ra's al Ghul, don't forget him) is being more ignorant than Batman. He is ignoring a simple, undeniable truth... there are still lots of good people in Gotham. There are still good norms in society.
And that's what makes Batman wiser than them. He is more balanced, they're more radical... and obtuse, and one-sided.

Joker doesn't control himself. He acts on impulse.

.... Hey, you're being delusional! And you can't prove that point

That's what I find so beautiful about him. Somebody like me is constantly having to repress half of the things I feel because they'll get me arrested or shunned by society.

.... And now you're explaining why you're connecting with the guy in a subjective and poorly thought way! Now it's so easy for me to win this argument...

When we meet him, Joker was already shunned by society, so he doesn't get any of society's comforts. Therefore he doesn't need the security blanket society offers, since to him it does nothing. He's free to do what he wants and what he wants it to show everyone what is wrong with society.

Wrong, society has millions of opportunities for people with permanent scars and traumatic past experiences. He could have a very good life if he wanted. He far from shunned by society. He doesn't have to fall in line either... if he wants to get away from society, he can become a hermit. But no, he choses to kill and maim to feel better about himself... he's probably more bound to society than Ra's al Ghul. You should admire Ra's instead.

homicide is pretty natural to man as well.

No, homicide is natural to animals. Yes, we're animals, don't get darwinist with me, but we're still quite apart from the rest of the species... you wanna know why?

Control of impulses.
If I hate my mother-in-law, I don't kill her. You know why? Because that would set me apart from society, and I would stop enjoying many of the privileges achieved by combined effort in community. Killing her is not the intelligent thing to do...
... and we are INTELLIGENT.
That's what sets us apart from animals. We repress our instincts to (hopefully) do the most intelligent thing to do.
That's what makes us HUMANS.
That's what's essential to us.

The Joker killed all of his partners in the bank heist... ONLY after they completed the job. He waited until he received the result of their combined effort... he repressed his homicide instinct..... he HAD A PLAN.

Which makes you doubly wrong about him.

That fixation on "doing" that society has created is what the Joker wants to denounce. What is so great about society? Where has it gotten us? This? The Joker looks around at the world man has built and is unimpressed.

And could he be impressed? He was hurt, it's personal to him, he sees the world in a subjective and mildly irrational way, he's not objective at all... he's resentful.

Society has still lots of good things that aren't worth sacrifying. When you lay your desire to debate aside, you'll understand it. Be objective. It's a good thing.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Melkay I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Ronny isn't trying to get into a debate with you, he's just stating the things that he got from Joker and the film. There isn't a set interpretation, it's the frickin Joker, thats the best thing about him. Throughout his history all his actions and the reasoning behind them can be interpreted differently, obviously not completely. But Ronny is making good points, valid points, and so are you. But it's just two people with different thoughts on the matter. There is no wrong and right so stopping telling people "Errrr wrong!".
I basically think he has been pained in his life, the "LOOK AT ME!!" confirms this for me. There is definitely some pain and heart ache in his voice there, well I think there is. He's a man who is sick of getting the short straw in life, he's sick of being ****ted on basically. And he sets out to do something about it, he plans to show everyone that life isn't fair, that peoples moral beliefs and grasp of good and evil will be blurred when the time comes to either die or live. What he is trying to show Gotham and Batman in particular is that when it all boils down to it, it's a "Dog eat Dog" world out there, and this can ring true. Not everyone is 100% good natured, and everybody has that primal instinct that will come through when "the chips are down". I don't know if you have read the book or seen the film but it's sorta like "Alive". A rugby team is flying over the Andes when it crashes. They are all stranded in the mountains and will all surely starve to death. What do they do? They turn to canabalism. This is a true story. Joker is the personification of that primal instinct, of man kinds dark side if you will, and he plans to show people that "in a world without rules", which he wishes to create, anyone can be brought down to that level. Which I think is very true.

 

[Melkay]

What I don't believe, Ace, is that this is an interpretation so open that it can contradict what we saw on the screen. What you got from the "Look At Me" scream is subjective, but at least it doesn't contradict the rest of the film, because it was established that the Joker was a deeply perturbed character, or at least he's trying to pass as one.

Ronny and me think differently but I think this is a very productive discussion. Why? Because defining what was the intention behind the characterization of the Joker and his worldview should be one of the cornerstones to designing the next villain... in the case of this thread, the Riddler.

we may admire the Joker on many personal levels... he's bold, he's unrestrained, he's a leader and a charismatic one for that matter. But he's not a hero. He's a villain, a terrorist, and a despicable one for that matter... that's why I don't think he should be admired for his actions of his opinions. Why not? I'm contesting that his opinions stem completely from a traumatic episode, and not from a sound worldview. Is it really a "dog eat dog" world out there? Sometimes not. Not even in the face of death. What about firemen who risk their lives to save others (because that's the Plan)? What about Bruce, going to fight the mob as Batman, risking his own life going on great lenghts to protect the innocent and still NOT kill his enemies?

Wat about the complete super-ego? I'm contesting the idea that the impulse is a more human feature thatn the control of the impulse. I'm saying that not everything is id, and while sometimes the id is very helpful and positive, the super-ego manifests many times and in many good forms in mankind's actions. The Joker, of course, didn't think that way, but we gotta understand well his actions and psychology in the context of the movie and try to define it the best possible way... so we can avoid repetition in the characterisation of the next villain.



p.s I haven't seen "Alive", but I'm familiar with the story and you should make a clarification... when you say the resorted to cannibalism, you don't sya they only ate the flesh of the dead. And even in doing so, they planned it, they distributed it, they debated about it before doing it, and they felt great remorse after they got rescued. They even received a pardon from the Vatican, condonning their actions in a life or death situation.... society embraced their doing and their guilt and even got space for that.

And I'll repeat it again... complete absence of social restrictions is not human, is animal, and even the Joker uses (NEEDS) many social structures for his plans. He needs his goons, he needs traffic, he needs arms suppliers, he exploits the good and the bad things from society in order to destroy it........ and that's the real hypocrisy. And that's why he isn't sincere... and that's why I believe his motives are not ideological at all, but personal and biased... and, ergo, subjective... and, ergo, only partially true. And partially false.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea, I do agree with you, but I also agree with some things Ronny said.

I'm not actually saying I believe it's always a "dog eat dog" world, I'm just trying to say that is how Joker thinks IMO. He thinks and tries to prove that when everything falls apart, when rules and morals don't have to be considered the animalistic side of human nature, it's survival instinct or just darker side will kick in. He does this with Harvey, to him his world is over, it's completely destroyed. He even says so "You think I want to escape from this?!!?" He is now at that level where nothing else matters apart from revenge, he even leaves a childs life to chance. Does Joker do this for personel gratification or for revenge aswell? Thats open to interpretation for sure, infact many people don't want to know. There should always be some parts of any Joker that can't be figured out, not with logic not with nothing.

In alive that is that survival instinct kicking in, would there be any other time they would eat human? They are also down to that level, the primal side.

And yea I agree with you, Jokers plans which cause anarchy wouldn't be possible without the social structure and the authorities structure. You need to have a set of rules to be able to break rules, that basically what he does. He uses the lawmakers and the authoritative figures in Gotham to do his crimes. He's is using the rulemakers to break the rules. Something which makes Joker a great villain for me.

 

[Jolly C.]

Hmm so the question is how can the riddler up the ante in the next film. How could he op the joker?

 

[Jolly C.]

top* the joker

 

[ronny]

The Joker cannot be topped.
Terefore The Riddler's movie should focus on one big crime. It should not be as full of action and instead be a much more tense and slow-burning film.
There is no way that they can top The Dark Knight with this villain but if they decide to do another kind of film then it will be a different story.

 

[Jick]

He doesn't need to be toped. I can see the Riddler being as good as Heath's Joker.

Concerning Riddler and Batman, I can see the Riddler being a harder villain to bring down than the Joker.
Joker said in TDK that Batman is powerful but he cannot use all this strenght against him. make Riddler a tougher opponent. Batman can use his strenght and fighting skills against him, but it still isn't enough, Riddler is better, more skilled and faster. also more intelligent.
make him find out who Batman is and use it against him. take Gordon, Alfred and Fox away from Bruce and leave him alone, lost, leaving only riddles. it would be pretty much at this point that we finally see Bruce visiting his parents, seeking for guidance, feeling more lost than ever. an opportunity too to see Batman using more his detective skills.

Now, concerning Riddler and Gotham, we could see a deteriorated Gotham, divided after what happened to Harvey. The Riddler could give them an ultimatum: the people of the city can keep living apart, divided in groups of villainy, greed, selfishness and corruption or they can join to solve his riddles and start to act like a community. there will be riddles for all, and if the city can't put the differences aside and start to respect each other and solve his riddles, he'll destroy everything, because in his mind, the city is simply lost. he destroys major points of Gotham, like hospitals, the biggest towers, the city hall.

Joker spread chaos to tear the city apart. Riddler would do it to bring them together, as their last hope, but if it doesn't happen, then the city is doomed. that's when Gotham resorts to its last hope: The Batman.