The Dark Knight Rises Riddle Me This: The Riddler Characterization Thread

[Learnedcitizen]

Indeed, there are several good ideas that could reinvent the Riddler as a sophisticating character. Earlier pages in this thread allude to the possibility of having a "Fall of Man" allegory, that would cast Edward Nashton as a gifted but tragically flawed Faustian figure, whose self-destructive obsession with Batman not only brings out his worst demons (e.g. his narcissism, vanity, and arrogance) but leads him to become a monster. Of course, he is vainglorious of his own talents and jealous they aren't being recognized, but in order to truly distinguish him from other criminals in the Nolanverse, his motives need to be deeper than simply wanting to flaunt his superior intellect (which, quite frankly, sounds childish). So, for a second, let's imagine Edward Nashton as a man who has devoted his entire life finding answers, only to struggle with the greatest puzzle of them all, "Who is the man behind the Mask?" He knows that uncovering the identity of Batman would undermine Gotham's fight against crime, but he ignores this and pursues his own agenda. This plot would contain elements relating to the "Forbidden Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge" (kudos to those who spotted the imagery in Magritte's 'The Son Of Man'...A green apple blocking the face of a man wearing a bowler hat? Genius! )

We all know Riddler's primary motivation is to tell the truth, and that having knowledge others lack is what empowers him to taunt people with his puzzles. However, the Riddler can also be someone who feels the world is built upon lies, specifically "fear of the truth." He wants the people of Gotham to face the truth about themselves, even if what they find frightens them. He sees life as the biggest riddle of all, but the easiest to solve...It's just that people are unwilling to accept the answer he has for them. That's why he leaves clues at his crimes. For Nashton, it's all about the power of truth. Whereas in TDK, Batman felt that the people of Gotham "Deserve more than the Truth", Edward Naston is someone who feels that we ought to embrace it. In this vein, the Riddler becomes a symbol of the Truth, and its potential to destroy and inflict harm (especially if he exposes Harvey Dent and succeeds in denying Gotham of its martyr and "White Knight)

That's why Batman is such an ideal opponent...Here's a man who not only refuses to reveal his identity (presenting an unsolvable intellectual challenge) but who must hide behind a mask in order to be himself. Batman reflects society's unwillingness to be honest with itself, and yet people continue to look up to him as a hero? To Edward, this simply doesn't make sense....and so it deranges him. Nashton has accepted the truth about the world, and wants others to realize the lies they create, but he sees Batman as his greatest obstacle, and over time, he comes to see Batman as the embodiment of Gotham's darkest secrets and its worst lies. As others have pointed out, a conflict like this would would follow the increasing complexity of what drives Batman's villians in the Nolanverse (If Ra's Al was saying, "Gotham, you are evil, I will destroy you!", and Joker "Gotham you are evil, and you will destroy each other!", then Riddler would say, "Gotham, you are complicit in an evil that will eventually destroy you!") Not to mention it adds depth to an interesting villain who, otherwise, has been painfully underdeveloped as an character.

 

[Closerframe]

Indeed, there are several good ideas that could reinvent the Riddler as a sophisticating character. Earlier pages in this thread mention the possibility of having a "Fall of Man" allegory, that would cast Edward Nashton as a gifted but tragically flawed Faustian figure, whose self-destructive obsession with Batman not only brings out his demons (e.g. his narcissism, vanity, and arrogance) but leads him to become a monster. Of course, he is vainglorious of his own talents and jealous they aren't being recognized, but in order to truly distinguish him from other criminals in the Nolanverse, his motives need to be deeper than simply wanting to flaunt his superior intellect (which, quite frankly, sounds childish). So, for a second, let's imagine Edward Nashton as a man who has devoted his life to himself to finding answers, only to struggle with the greatest puzzle of them all, "Who is the man behind the Mask?" He knows that uncovering the identity of Batman would undermine Gotham's fight against crime, but he ignores this and pursues his own agenda. This plot would contain elements relating to the "Forbidden Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge" (kudos to those who spotted the imagery in Magritte's 'The Son Of Man'...A green apple blocking the face of a man wearing a bowler hat? Genius! )

We all know Riddler's primary motivation is to tell the truth, and that having knowledge others lack is what empowers him to taunt people with his puzzles. However, the Riddler can also be someone who feels the world is built upon lies, specifically "fear of the truth." He wants the people of Gotham to face the truth about themselves, even if what they find frightens them. He sees life as the biggest riddle of all, but the easiest to solve...It's just that people are unwilling to accept the answer he has for them. That's why he leaves clues at his crimes. For Nashton, it's all about the power of truth. Whereas in TDK, Batman felt that the people of Gotham "Deserve more than the Truth", Edward Naston is someone who feels that we ought to embrace it. In this vein, the Riddler becomes a symbol of the Truth, and its potential to destroy and harm (especially if he exposes Harvey Dent and succeeds in denying Gotham of its martyr and "White Knight)

That's why Batman is such an ideal opponent...Here's a man who not only refuses to reveal his identity (presenting an unsolvable intellectual challenge) but who must hide behind a mask in order to be himself. Batman reflects society's unwillingness to be honest with itself, and yet people continue to look up to him as a hero? To Edward, this doesn't make sense....and so it deranges him. Nashton has accepted the truth about the world, and wants others to realize the lies they create, but he sees Batman as his greatest obstacle, and over time, he comes to see Batman as the embodiment of both Gotham's dark secrets and its lies. As others have pointed out, a conflict like this would would follow the increasing complexity of what drives Batman's villians in the Nolanverse (If Ra's Al was saying, "Gotham, you are evil, I will destroy you!", and Joker "Gotham you are evil, and you will destroy each other!", then Riddler would say, "Gotham, you are complicit in an evil that will eventually destroy you!") Not to mention it adds depth to an interesting villain who, otherwise, has been painfully underdeveloped as an character.

I hope this is what Nolan is thinking.

 

[Learnedcitizen]

Eventually, Edward needs to experience a personal catharsis, where he becomes so engulfed in his "Riddler" persona, that it alters his objectives. It should come to a point where he is no longer interested in pursuing Batman's identity. In the end, he must realize that in order to exist as "The Riddler," he needs a playmate who who can think outside the box and challenge his puzzles, and bring him the fame and notoriety he sorely lacked as Edward Nashton. Batman may embody everything he despises ideologically, but without him, the "Riddler" cannot flaunt his talents, and he would revert back to the "nobody" that is Edward Nashton.

IMO, the Riddler, especially one depicted along these lines, is not a character that will lend itself easily to a villain-centric plot. Nor do I feel he could inspire a performance as chilling and menacing as Keith's "Joker" (not saying its not possible, but I simply don't see him as that type of villain). Still, Nolan could explore the full scope of this character in ways that can establish Batman detective skills (a crucial pillar of the Batman mythos), and provide an element of suspense and intrigue that could truly set the film apart from others in the franchise. Furthermore, an actor with an original approach to the Riddler apart from the the comedic and campy performances of Jim Carey and Frank Gorshin, could still distinguish himself, and perhaps bring further acclaim to the film. More importantly, the Riddler, because he is not such an over-the-top character who consumes our attention, allows other sub-plots to be woven into Batman's all-important tale of redemption. If Nolan chooses this direction and succeeds, then we can expect another cinematic achievement.

 

[kid dropper]

I've been thinking on the Riddler, and i really think he can be done, without being like the Joker at all, but actually being opposite from him in a lot of ways. Like for instance how they drop the Joker into the action with no backstory, lets give riddler a detailed and involving origin. Lets have him be super neat and well kept, as opposed to the Jokers grimy, greasy menace. If all this makes him sound docile and lame, he can still be portrayed as highly disturbing. The way i see it, the Joker outwardly, shallowly projected chaos, he looked crazy, he talked crazy, but in the end for all his talk against planning, order, and control, what did he end up doing?methodically enacting an elaborate scheme to take over the city, all the while following through on every threat he explicitly and clearly made to the public. What if Riddler was the opposite, an outward picture of composure, order, smoothness, but in the end was a completely erratic, aimless, indiscriminate lunatic in behavior, with no real rhyme or reason other than trying t outsmart batman and the cops at any cost...................
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[Learnedcitizen]

I've been thinking on the Riddler, and i really think he can be done, without being like the Joker at all, but actually being opposite from him in a lot of ways. Like for instance how they drop the Joker into the action with no backstory, lets give riddler a detailed and involving origin. Lets have him be super neat and well kept, as opposed to the Jokers grimy, greasy menace. If all this makes him sound docile and lame, he can still be portrayed as highly disturbing. The way i see it, the Joker outwardly, shallowly projected chaos, he looked crazy, he talked crazy, but in the end for all his talk against planning, order, and control, what did he end up doing?methodically enacting an elaborate scheme to take over the city, all the while following through on every threat he explicitly and clearly made to the public. What if Riddler was the opposite, an outward picture of composure, order, smoothness, but in the end was a completely erratic, aimless, indiscriminate lunatic in behavior, with no real rhyme or reason other than trying t outsmart batman and the cops at any cost...................
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And that's what makes him so frightening IMO. That even despite his twisted nature, he attempts to convinces us of his sanity, because he thinks so highly of his own genius. This would definitely place him in the "freak" column and set his apart from the criminals Gotham is used to dealing with. Although I can't imagine a Riddler who is bent on mayhem (he's never acted as such), I can easily see him using both destruction and deception towards aims that are irrational and twisted.

The Riddler differs from the Joker in many respects -- not only in the the scale of his crimes (less explosions, fewer henchmen) but the nature of his crimes as well. They may share similiar motives (they both seek to undermine Batman's ethical foundations) but the Riddler's crimes have always included an added layer of intellect. At his finest, he'd be able to throw Batman off in different directions -- toppling plans, decieving his targets with false-leads and misinformation, and pitting people against each other in ways the Joker couldn't. You could argue his crimes are not as explosive for the big-screen, but with the right material, they can be as every bit rivetting as what we saw in TDK. Depending on the actor, he may not approach the same level of charisma as the Joker, but the deceit involved alone would require much more versatility and originality than we are normally used to seeing in supervillians, especially if an origin story is involved.

IMO, the Riddler is the perfect villain for completing the Batman mythos, because for all the cinematic brilliance through the years, we have yet to see "the world's greatest detective" that we are used to seeing in the comics (you could argue its been missing from the film franchise entirely), and there's no better foe who has tested Batman's intellect than the crazed genius Edward Nashton.

 

[Dark Knight]

Hmm....I can see Sean Penn being considered as the Riddler or maybe Black Mask in the next Bat film.

Penn is taking a break from movies due to personal family issues and it would create big time buzz to see him come back to the fold as the Riddler in Nolans 3rd Bat film after being on a hiatus!

 

[HitMe]

So, I've been perusing these boards ever since I saw the Dark Knight and decided that Batman is completely awesome, and I've been seeing a lot of hate for the Riddler, never with any real justification for this sentiment. I've also seen Batman Begins, The Prestige and Memento since I saw DK, and it just seems to me that if there's any Villain Nolan could really go to town with (assuming Nolan is returning, of course), it's the Riddler.

Admittedly, I have no comic experience when it comes to Batman, so take all this with a pinch of salt. However, one main criticism I've seen, which also seems the most valid is that he would be too similar to the Dark Knight's Joker. However, even though Joker left trails of clues like the DNA on the card etc., it's not like ANY of them were difficult to solve. The Riddler would be there to challenge Batman intellectually. The Joker did not do this. The Joker challenged his morals, and his reason for doing what he does, and tricked him etc., but not once was Batmans intelligence challenged. Also, the Riddlers personality would be completely different from the Jokers, as it is in the comics, and as it should be. I literally saw a post quite recently listing one of these similarities as the fact that they both wear purple and green, and that excuse just stinks of bull**** to me, and it just seems to me that no-one is giving Nolan (or the Riddler for that matter) enough credit.

Also, I really don't see how the fact that he's gone legit in the comics and is not a threat is a reason not to use him in Nolans films. I am sure that Nolan can make a threat out of the Riddler, whether or not he is in the comic canon.

Anyway, just thought I'd open it up for discussion, whether he could or should be in the next Batfilm, and the reasons for those who hate him. In my humble opinion, he's the one villain I would really like to see the Nolans take on in the next film.

peace.

 

[firstclassclown]

I wouldn't mind seeing Daniel Craig as the Riddler.

His toughness and witt matches what I see in the Riddler.

Smarter than Batman and wealthy. This enables him to be always a step ahead of Batman/Bruce. His influence is his manipulation and charm. But, he needs to have that look that something else is going on inside. I know that there's a Riddler casting thread but I wanted to explain my vision too.

 

[Nebins]

I'd like the Riddler to be much more serious than the Joker-fied version of the past movie franchise, but his traps nowhere near as gruesome as Jigsaw's. I'm thinking more along the lines of Kevin Spacey in "Seven".

Yeah I like the idea of The Riddler sort of like Kevin Spacey in "Seven" but also a touch of the Zodiac Killer. I think it would be great if the movie was sort of like a murder mystery. It could allow them to more deeply explore Batman as the world's greatest detective.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

what we need to see is the Riddler as a Ted Bundy type criminal (I DON'T MEAN KILLER) i mean he should be the SMART guy that the authorities & BATMAN go to after CAPTURING HIM to help solve crimes!

like a Dr. Lector

 

[sonofdawn]

Yeah I like the idea of The Riddler sort of like Kevin Spacey in "Seven" but also a touch of the Zodiac Killer. I think it would be great if the movie was sort of like a murder mystery. It could allow them to more deeply explore Batman as the world's greatest detective.

I like the idea of The Riddler being portrayed in that way. His personality could fit the mold of a serial killer.

 

[jackshea]

Hey, I'm new to this thread but want to get my idea out there.
I think since Joker's rampage and the fact that Bats is now a vigilante and Dent is dead, Gotham is left both hurt and hero less, instead of a villain type, riddler would be more of an enigmatic demagogue, slowly manipulating and taking control of Gotham as its new savior, posing riddles to the public to get them riled up revolutionary-style, the riddles themselves would have subtle clues that only Batman notices, a challenge for him.

 

[markstrange]

Watch Storm of the Century. Think Andre Linoge comes to Gotham - but with a riddles twist.

 

[B]

Yeah I like the idea of The Riddler sort of like Kevin Spacey in "Seven" but also a touch of the Zodiac Killer. I think it would be great if the movie was sort of like a murder mystery. It could allow them to more deeply explore Batman as the world's greatest detective.

I think Nolan could really reinvent the Riddler to fit his real world like setting for his films in such a way.

I don't want him to be a brutal murder (but capable of it), more a man who enjoys trying to outsmart Batman completly

Its an out-there sort of suggestion but I thought a "Saw" like film would be good for Batman/Riddler like film. Crime scene to crime scene basing a film more about wits than all out explosions & fist fights

 

[Jordacar]

Watch Storm of the Century. Think Andre Linoge comes to Gotham - but with a riddles twist.

Born in lust, turn to dust. Born in sin, come on in...

 

[DavidTyler]

The more I think about Spacey in 'Seven' the more I think a lot of you are right on the money.

My favourite version of the character was the one just before he went legit. The version where he was just a decent looking guy with a stylized question mark tattooed on his neck. That version was intelligent and clever with a suave kind of style. I could buy that this guy was dangerous.

In fact, I could buy that this guy was a serial killer which I think wouldn't be a bad take on The Riddler... as long as there were other criminal activities that he would be committing.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ehhh I think the whole "serial killer who leaves clues" is played out. I don't think Nolan will go that route, it's too easy and predictable.

And anyway, Riddler isn't a cold blood killer. He just wants to prove he is the smartest, he is the best. Not kill a load of people. I see Riddler as killing ONLY when he HAS to.

 

[rfU]

bonjour folks, i'm recently laid off and bored out of my mind so I'm giving script writing a go. I'm writing a Dark Knight sequel and I'm looking for Riddler stories I can incorporate into my story. Just so you know what kind of story I penning, the opening scene is the 'tunnel of love' scene in the "Return of the Dark Knight" comic book where the Batman paralyzes the Joker. At this point, all of Gotham has seemingly lost patience with Batman, even Gordon. Another part of the story involves Talia recruiting Bane (who I've made a former failed student of Ra's Al Ghul). From that end, everything follows closely with the Nightfall Part 1 story line.

Now the Riddler, I've written as a TV host who spews anti-Batman rhetoric, even going as far as inviting the Scarecrow onto his show. However he's losing ratings fast, and so he sends threatening riddles and the sort to Gordon, posing as some kind of crazed lunatic driven crazy by the Batman's antics. But I need a bit more to add to this story. Any thoughts on Riddler stories/plots? I have Paul bettany in mind to play the role, and I'm writing him as a sort of closet psycho like Patrick Bateman and this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5Qka9zpWgY

 

[Infinity9999x]

Ehhh I think the whole "serial killer who leaves clues" is played out. I don't think Nolan will go that route, it's too easy and predictable.

And anyway, Riddler isn't a cold blood killer. He just wants to prove he is the smartest, he is the best. Not kill a load of people. I see Riddler as killing ONLY when he HAS to.

I would agree, or to make a point. Riddler should have no qualms about killing, but it's not his main thing.

However, it should be be noted that Riddler's "serial killer who leaves clues" would be much more complex than Joker's clues. Joker left clues that he wanted to be decoded fairly easily. Riddler is leaving clues that he thinks only he is smart enough to understand, because he can't help but show off his intelligence for his narciscism.

 

[Fresh Prince]

The more I think about Spacey in 'Seven' the more I think a lot of you are right on the money.

My favourite version of the character was the one just before he went legit. The version where he was just a decent looking guy with a stylized question mark tattooed on his neck. That version was intelligent and clever with a suave kind of style. I could buy that this guy was dangerous.

In fact, I could buy that this guy was a serial killer which I think wouldn't be a bad take on The Riddler... as long as there were other criminal activities that he would be committing.

That sounds like a good Riddler to use for BM3.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Riddler in my version of the story...No you have to read it to find out. Its on the thread Batman 3 where does the story go. the previous page on the last page. Itll make for a good bedtime story.

 

[nolan's roll'n]

What about the themes of Escalation and Redemption in Batman 3, being shown? What about Mark Wahlberg as Black Mask or The Riddler. I loved him in the Departed, so funny!

 

[BestGirl]

This is going to sound weird but I don't read the comics, so I'm wondering: what are the point of the Riddler's riddles? If he were a serial killer and the riddles pointed to his next victims I could understand that, but what if he's not? If he's just a robber, do his riddles point out his next target? Does he have goons? It's hard for me to imagine him as the leader of a gang because I tend to think of him as more of a loner. If he's a federal agent, then what purpose do the riddles serve?

 

[Infinity9999x]

This is going to sound weird but I don't read the comics, so I'm wondering: what are the point of the Riddler's riddles? If he were a serial killer and the riddles pointed to his next victims I could understand that, but what if he's not? If he's just a robber, do his riddles point out his next target? Does he have goons? It's hard for me to imagine him as the leader of a gang because I tend to think of him as more of a loner. If he's a federal agent, then what purpose do the riddles serve?

It's his compulsion. He can't help himself. Batman has said often times that Riddler is so brilliant that he would never get caught if it weren't for his Riddles. Riddler is so narcissistic that he wants people to know he's committing the crimes he engages in, and his riddles also are another way of showing off. He thinks that no one but himself (and eventually Batman) are clever enough to decipher what his Riddles mean.

And his Riddles usually point to his next targets.

 

[Mister H.]

Ehhh I think the whole "serial killer who leaves clues" is played out. I don't think Nolan will go that route, it's too easy and predictable.

And anyway, Riddler isn't a cold blood killer. He just wants to prove he is the smartest, he is the best. Not kill a load of people. I see Riddler as killing ONLY when he HAS to.

Agreed. I'd be bored to death with that sort of characterization. One thing we can count on is that Nolan will surprise us. He finds a way to update these classic villains and make them Nolan-ready while remaining their most important character traits. As I said in another thread, if a theme of isolation and solitude is embedded in the narrative, then the Riddler would be an ideal antagonist.

I do think Learnedcitizen's ideas may be similar to what the Nolan's and Goyer would be toying with, if they indeed are interested in using the Riddler. I'm still of the belief we are in for a big surprise as to who the villain(s) will be.