The Dark Knight Rises Riddle Me This: The Riddler Characterization Thread

[baleheadbrasil]

Waltz was immense in Basterds. I would be happy with him as Riddler. Or maybe even Black Mask.

I agree. As Black Mask Christoph would be great,too.
I would choose him or Vincent Cassell to play this character.

 

[ronny]

Any other suggestions on his motive and reason? I like that about him taking out less smarter people.

Good idea. Him weeding out and humiliating the ignorant.
A lot like the version of the character we saw in Arkham Asylum, don't you agree?

Dr. Young
Let's look at it a different way. Throughout your career, you have
specialized in bizarre traps and convoluted clues that, more often than not,
result in the death of the unfortunate participants.

Eddie Nashton
And if the citizens of Gotham were smarter, my games would be merely an
amusing diversion.

Dr. Young
Instead of deathtraps.

Eddie Nashton
You really should be thanking me. Weeding out the ignorant, the stupid,
the useless. But don't worry, I’m sure you would survive. What a lovely photo on
your desk, Doctor. Your family? Mother, perhaps?​

What an awesome version of The Riddler. Can't praise it highly enough.​

 

[Nightwing 52]

Good idea. Him weeding out and humiliating the ignorant.
A lot like the version of the character we saw in Arkham Asylum, don't you agree?

What an awesome version of The Riddler. Can't praise it highly enough.

My favorite from B:AA:

Dr. Young: Lets discuss your obsession with Batman.

Riddler: Hardly an obsession doctor. I merely seek a reason to expose him.

Dr. Young: You know who he is?

Riddler: More importantly, I know what he is. It's obvious. The mask, the weapons the scare tactics. He's a criminal. No different then Joker or Two-Face, or myself...

Dr. Young: Most people consider him a hero.

Riddler: Most people are idiots! They can't see Batman for what he really is!
---

I agree with the interpretation of the character for the game, they really nailed it.

 

[Rodrigo90]

OK. Maybe have the FBI come in (Or the Task Force) and Riddler puts them through his death-traps,to test wether theyre smart enough to catch him and Batman?

 

[ALittlePush]

Just a couple of ideas for the riddler depending on who plays him.

Damian Lewis

He would appear as Edward Nashton, an FBI agent who is very dedicated to his work, always gets his man, that sort of thing. He becomes frustrated about his failure to catch Batman so his methods become more and more unorthodox in order to lure Batman out. He becomes the Riddler as a trap for Batman. The Riddles are all to lead Batman to Nashton and his arrest. However, the more frustrated Nashton becomes, the more he gets into the Riddler role. He becomes so obsessed with catching Batman that the Riddler isn’t just a trap for Batman anymore but an actual threat to Gotham.

Zachary Quinto

He would appear predominately as Edward Nashton, a new detective in the MCU. He would be one of Gordon’s handpicked team alongside Stephens, Bullock, Montoya and a couple of others. He would be very quiet and meek, constantly dominated by his co-workers, not necessarily deliberately but because he feels he can’t say no to their requests such as doing some extra paper work etc. Basically he gets taken advantage of and it frustrates him, so he becomes the Riddler to prove that he isn’t a doormat and that he is smarter than them all.
The Riddler wouldn’t appear in the movie as such. The riddles would appear and Nashton would appear throughout the movie. He would only be revealed as the Riddler towards the end of the movie.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Mindreaper21]

The Riddler is a criminal. He shouldn't be some FBI agent etc. We've seen the "Who is Batman" version already, so we don't need to see it again. I say, don't give The Riddler a background, leave it a mystery. All his files on the computer should be replaced with question marks. Just introduce him starting with disturbing riddles that the GPD decides not to take serioulsy. Then have an officer fall into a trap somewhere in a dark place. Have The Riddler speaking to the officer from a shadowed area. As the officer begins to die, The Riddler slowly walks up to view his work, giving us a good look at him. Then he delivers the body in a box with a questionmark on it and a twisted puzzle inside for them to solve to get their next riddle. Gordon would secretly get the now wanted Batman to help him solve it and Batman would go to where it leads him. The Riddler would be expecting someone from the GPD but then gets the idea to put Batman through a series of challenges so that Batman would be caught while he steals loads of money and valuables.

I have to admit the New Detctive idea is pretty good, just not for The Riddler because thats not who he is. If it was an entirely new character just for the movie that The Riddler or the other villain can get their hands on, then that would be perfect because the movie needs extra characters like that to keep the story going. Just like BB had that jerk owner of Wayne Enterprises and "Harvey Bullock" type character, then TDK had Coleman Reese Mike Engle.

 

[Jolly C.]

meh

 

[GaiusBaltar]

The Riddler is a criminal. He shouldn't be some FBI agent etc. We've seen the "Who is Batman" version already, so we don't need to see it again.

Exactly why? We certainly don't need it but if it improves upon previous versions, we should see it. It is a good angle that deals directly with one of Batman's central issues, his concealed identity. It is not false to say that if the secret of Batman's identity goes away, it essentially destroys him.

I say, don't give The Riddler a background, leave it a mystery. All his files on the computer should be replaced with question marks.

Many people have brought to attention the risk in making the Riddler too similar to the Joker. You would elicit comparison with Ledger's portrayal, bump into repetition, etc. Because the Joker did indeed operate in a very similar way to the Riddler in TDK (and, to an extent, also in the comics).

So how do you avoid such downfalls? You try to make them as different as possible. And you try to stay true to what makes them different in their source material. Does the Joker have a past, an indentity? No, he doesn't. But the Riddler does. He is Edward Nygma. And leaving him shrouded into mystery would only, well... be too much like the Joker.

Now, it would be silly to conceal the Riddler's identity because everybody knows he's Edward Nygma, or Edward Nashton, so it wouldn't be a thrill to find out. Yet, to make him someone else would feel like a cheat. You can change part of his background story because his background has never stayed the exact same. But his name and personality and the basics of his M.O.... you can't change that.
And you can't pull that trick they did with Ra's in Begins because well, it's been played out already.

The Riddler is about mysteries but mysteries have two sides. He can be the one creating them or he can be the one trying to solve them (at least the big ones... he can create puzzles, but not the big questions like "who is the Batman").

I vote for him to be the one trying to solve them, albeit creating a few to taunt/distract/oppose Batman. My favorites are death traps. The Joker started them so it's only natural that could kick in and become a thing for copycats and new psychopats to mimic. Or at least that's what one would expect. Then this fancy FBI agent called Nashton decides to exploit that and create a false "new type of criminal" persona, a textbook theatrical psychopat: The Riddler. And "The Riddler" (who doesn't actually exist) creates death-traps with puzzles to lure Batman out. But he's not in total control of it, something goes wrong and people die. And in his obssesion and megalomania, he blames Batman for not being smart enough. He ends up behaving exacly like the persona he created... he ends up lost inside his own monster... mirroring Bruce's own risk of permanently becoming Batman and losing his Bruce Wayne side.

If you ask me, it fits. It fits, fits, fits. In that form, he does every single thing a villain should do: 1. Interact with and present threats to other characters (Gordon, for instance, would have this guy breathing on his neck)

Just introduce him starting with disturbing riddles that the GPD decides not to take serioulsy. Then have an officer fall into a trap somewhere in a dark place. Have The Riddler speaking to the officer from a shadowed area. As the officer begins to die, The Riddler slowly walks up to view his work, giving us a good look at him. Then he delivers the body in a box with a questionmark on it and a twisted puzzle inside for them to solve to get their next riddle. Gordon would secretly get the now wanted Batman to help him solve it and Batman would go to where it leads him. The Riddler would be expecting someone from the GPD but then gets the idea to put Batman through a series of challenges so that Batman would be caught while he steals loads of money and valuables.

One or two officers dying? Riddles that suddenly make nervous an entire Police Force that have seen worse? His ultimate goal is to distract Batman while he... steals money. These stakes are too low and we shouldn't be lowering the stakes, by any standards. That would be seen as boring and lazy.

I have to admit the New Detective idea is pretty good, just not for The Riddler because thats not who he is.

But the problem is that making the Riddler completely faithful doesn't make him ideal as a villain for a sequel that should raise the stakes. In fact, far from that. He's very low-key and inconsequential compared to what we're facing now: the possible final installment of the Nolanverse. Doing things "by the book" is anticlimatic and lazy. The Riddler needs change just as much every other character in any other adaption... it's just that in some cases characters require bigger change. He's one of those characters.

But I find those adaptation ideas so good that he could be, in fact, a fantastic main villain. And we all love the Riddler, but how many great stories have had him as the main antagonist? Almost none. Well, with the proper change he could be now. He would retain his name, personality, M.O., motives, maybe even done his costume at a certain point... and still be the main antagonist. How cool is that?

 

[Rodrigo90]

Good points GaiusBaltar. But not everybody wants to see that interpretation. Edward Nashton probably wont be a Fed though. He was mentioned in the Gotham Times,having a grudge against Harvey for some reason. I like to see that get picked up on.

 

[GaiusBaltar]

I'm not here arguing what some people like and some people don't, we wouldn't see the end of it. I'm trying to figure out what makes sense and is most likely to work and what no. The Gotham Times note may WB and DC's way of honoring a character Nolan has no intention of using, like Croc and Deadshot in Gotham Knight. But we cannot discuss anything here if we start from that assumption. Yet we can also see the note is ambiguous enough so it fits any possible version of the character. He just hates Dent and believes he was a bad candidate. Not necessarily the cornerstone of his depiction.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I dont think they would travel to Washington to ask a Fed what he thinks of Harvey Dent,lol.

It also mentioned in the Gotham Times that Zsaz was still at large,so I bet there is some truth to believe it holds meaning from the Times that it can be taken seriously. If it is correct that the villains mentioned in the Gotham Times,might not appear for some reason,might not be Riddler at all. Could be Black Mask,he was never mentioned. Or Scarface. You never know, I guess.

 

[Jolly C.]

I depicted the riddler to specifically be an ATF agent that investigates all of what happened in the DK...but if the note to the gotham times is going to be played out what other interpretation can the riddler have because you bring up a good point, they wouldnt go to washington to hear a federal agents opinion...so what else could his interpretation be thats original and doesnt fall into the realm of other villians?

 

[Rodrigo90]

IF they choose The Riddler,I think it is inevitable that he will be like The Joker,because he is similar to him in him the comics and we shouldn't shy away from that. There would be nothing wrong with that in my book,but obviously we dont him EXACTLY like Joker. I think WB will pick him for that 1 reason,cause he is similar to The Joker. But the movie will have to bring that issue forward, Riddler couldve been inspired by The Joker and admits it,but obviously thinks he is far more superior to him. A rival to Batmans intelligence and rival to The Joker's status. Its a realistic approach to the situation.

I mean that deathtrap with Harvey and Rachel...Joker executed it,but maybe it was Nashton's idea and he becomes obsessed with more and wants recognition that it was his idea and not Jokers?

 

[namtaB]

IF they choose The Riddler,I think it is inevitable that he will be like The Joker,because he is similar to him in him the comics and we shouldn't shy away from that. There would be nothing wrong with that in my book,but obviously we dont him EXACTLY like Joker. I think WB will pick him for that 1 reason,cause he is similar to The Joker. But the movie will have to bring that issue forward, Riddler couldve been inspired by The Joker and admits it,but obviously thinks he is far more superior to him. A rival to Batmans intelligence and rival to The Joker's status. Its a realistic approach to the situation.

I mean that deathtrap with Harvey and Rachel...Joker executed it,but maybe it was Nashton's idea and he becomes obsessed with more and wants recognition that it was his idea and not Jokers?

I think they couldn't be more different. Joker, in the film, believed the premise that everyone no matter how good is corruptible. All his machinations were done to prove this point. He didn't care about money or notoriety. He targeted Gotham's heroes and set out to corrupt them.

Riddler isn't on a moral crusade or out to prove the same thing. He believes he's smarter than everyone else and sets out to prove that he can outsmart anyone.

To me, the closest representation of the Riddler in real life is the Zodiac killer.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Sets out to prove he is smarter than both Batman AND Joker,that would be good enough.

There is no denying that Riddler is similar to The Joker,in some ways.

 

[ronny]

Sets out to prove he is smarter than both Batman AND Joker,that would be good enough.

There is no denying that Riddler is similar to The Joker,in some ways.

I see no similarities.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Excluding Harley, Riddler is the closest thing to the Joker than any other villain. They plan things and watch it unfold,they have A SIMILAR presence. Ofcourse not the same goals,but you can see 1 similarity at least. Joker has a nice purple suit and Riddler has a nice green suit. Everyone says that Riddler is a Joker ripoff one way or another. So IMO,Riddler should be inspired by Joker for the approach of the movie.

Good inspires good. Good draws evil. Evil inspires evil.

 

[namtaB]

I think Frank Gorshin's Riddler performance is largely responsible for the "Riddler is like the Joker" impression some people have. Gorshin didn't know what to do with the character so he made him zany and over the top. It didn't matter that later on in the series Romero's Joker was also similarly zany and over the top.

Nolan's Joker was atypical in the sense that he planned things out, his philosophical muses were lucid, and he had a well defined goal. Its hard to argue that Nolan's Joker was truly insane even though the character of the Joker has been portrayed as being insane.

All the villains in Nolan's films will be "planners" b/c that's how Nolan thinks. If someone or something doesn't serve a defined purpose linked in a logical manner its of no interest to him. He almost goes to pathological lengths to make sure things fit logically into his films. So Riddler planning things doesn't necessarily make him similar to Joker b/c he planed Dent's downfall or Ra's b/c he planned Gotham's destruction by infaltrating every level of its infrastructure.

The key distinction is their personalities and their goals.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Joker and Riddler are very different,but also similar. Their personalities,goals and methods are different. But for a realistic turn,I definitely think Joker should be indirectly responsible for Riddler's creation. Riddler should admit this,but plans to outdo the Joker's status as Gotham's top criminal,by outsmarting and killing Batman. Joker doesnt want Batman dead,but Riddler does and believes his intellect will make it happen. A rival to Batman and Joker. The Joker has inspired Riddler to come forward and flesh out his criminally desires.

Batman = Joker = Riddler.

 

[The Joker]

Joker and Riddler are very different,but also similar. Their personalities,goals and methods are different. But for a realistic turn,I definitely think Joker should be indirectly responsible for Riddler's creation. Riddler should admit this,but plans to outdo the Joker's status as Gotham's top criminal,by outsmarting and killing Batman. Joker doesnt want Batman dead,but Riddler does and believes his intellect will make it happen. A rival to Batman and Joker. The Joker has inspired Riddler to come forward and flesh out his criminally desires.

Batman = Joker = Riddler.

Oh no, I wouldn't like that idea. I'd like Riddler to be his own self made man. Scarecrow, Ra's, and Falcone had links to eachother. Joker and Two Face had links.

Lets break that tradition. Just have Riddler come into his own himself. Nothing to do with other villains.

 

[Rodrigo90]

It makes sense though. Especially with Riddler's competitive streak and people being somewhat easily inspired by higher forces in Nolan's world.

 

[DarkKnight FTW]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

I'm of the opinion, and someone may have already suggested this, that we shouldn't know who the riddler is. Not who he is in the movie or who the actor is that's playing him until the end of the movie. WB should just cast a bunch of actors and not say who's the riddler is. That's the best riddle to me. That in itself creates another great viral campaign and the brothers Nolan are pretty good with twists.

 

[J. Custer]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

I'm of the opinion, and someone may have already suggested this, that we shouldn't know who the riddler is. Not who he is in the movie or who the actor is that's playing him until the end of the movie. WB should just cast a bunch of actors and not say who's the riddler is. That's the best riddle to me. That in itself creates another great viral campaign and the brothers Nolan are pretty good with twists.

Cool, I like this idea. and it makes for a very different sequel.

 

[jmc]

It makes sense though. Especially with Riddler's competitive streak and people being somewhat easily inspired by higher forces in Nolan's world.

The problem with your idea is the Riddler's motive basically boils down to him trying to one up the previous villain and in terms of story it's fairly one dimensional. It should never be about who did what last. Not only that, you're making the Joker the more inspirational character than Batman, when it should always be Batman inspiring the crazies.

 

[Jolly C.]

Batman should drive Edward Nigma/Nashton into becoming the villian, the Riddler, not so much of Joker being an inspiration.