The Dark Knight Rises Riddle Me This: The Riddler Characterization Thread
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ALittlePush
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Someone on fanfiction.com had the idea that Nashton is a detective and that the name "Riddler" is a nickname because he is so good at solving the cases he is given. Then Joker gets a hold of him and gives him scars in the shape of question marks using a crowbar and a bunsen burner. Nashton then seems to go a little bit mad and joins up with Scarecrow and Joker although it is implied that it could all just be a pretence.
Pythagoras
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That should never happen in the film.
Thank you, I appreciate it. Im not opposed to the Fed idea. I guess I lash at it,because I cant seem to work into my story,lol. I have my mind set on the idea that he cracks up in prison and his motive and style just dont work because he is a Fed, There are limitations on that,which I cant do. So, I thought the easy solution is for him to be devious and just steal the identity of a Fed so he can use and manipulate the FBI's resources and dispatch their Agents.
Ive posted the beginning in Where does the story go from here?,if you like to read it.
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Heres the plot of Batman 3 if Riddler is a Fed. Obsessed FBI Agent creates traps and an alter ego (for some reason) to capture Batman. He accidentally kills somebody,goes insane and permanently becomes his alter ego. Simple,but brilliant.
Heres my plot, isnt a Fed. Obsessed P.I. Obsesses over Batman and discovers his identity before 3 begins. He used to be a highly intelligent,but crooked cop (longing to be a detective and pleased at his high status),but was set up by Gordon and sentenced to 3 years in prison. During that time,he cracked up and became obsessed with riddles and puzzles,to keep his mind preoccupied. 3 years passed and he was released,but was never the same again. He set up a private investigation firm,at the time Batman was already around and Joker was on the upcoming. Edward began to see psychiatrists,as he wasnt coping well. But they werent giving him "the right answers" to his questions. Edward was soon falling apart.
Heres my plot, isnt a Fed. Obsessed P.I. Obsesses over Batman and discovers his identity before 3 begins. He used to be a highly intelligent,but crooked cop (longing to be a detective and pleased at his high status),but was set up by Gordon and sentenced to 3 years in prison. During that time,he cracked up and became obsessed with riddles and puzzles,to keep his mind preoccupied. 3 years passed and he was released,but was never the same again. He set up a private investigation firm,at the time Batman was already around and Joker was on the upcoming. Edward began to see psychiatrists,as he wasnt coping well. But they werent giving him "the right answers" to his questions. Edward was soon falling apart.
He then realised the only other man who understood obsession better than any psychiatrist was Batman. But he knew Batman wasnt going to understand the sheer complexity of his mind, unless he made him. During the events of 3. Edward began studying Batman at every angle and wanted to understand the knowledge of him,before any further action would be taken. Eventually he deducted that Batman was Bruce Wayne,but decided to keep that knowledge and use it in his quest. Edward decided to create an alter ego,in hopes of getting Batman's full attention...by becoming what Batman hates. His fascination (obsession) with riddles and puzzles was to become his image. As he identified himself as a complex riddle,that MUST be solved by Batman,by any means necessary. so that Edward could finally gain the knowledge of what he desires most...himself.
But his alter ego (the Riddler) personality gradually begins to take over his mind,until he loses himself and becomes a real threat.
But his alter ego (the Riddler) personality gradually begins to take over his mind,until he loses himself and becomes a real threat.
Also,the Fed idea may be great,but can it generate a strong captivating story? As I said their limitations on that.
What I can do,is have him steal the identity of an Agent, infiltrate the FBI headquarters,make a mockery of them without even knowing it, and abuse their resources. Cause he uses the FBIs vast intelligence to do a cyber battle with Batman. Of course he could still do that with being a Fed,but as I said about the Fed idea,its a little too simple for me. Also the plot is him hunting Batman as a Fed,but think of the drama you could have if he knew about it? Like,framing Bruce Wayne for murder, to make the challenge harder for him. Also could a Fed be trusted to make friends with a crime boss?
Many free reign opportunities if he wasnt a Fed,who didnt know who Batman was. Im not saying "dont like the Fed idea",but look for more interesting ideas as well as that. Dont just stick to 1 thing,thats all.
What I can do,is have him steal the identity of an Agent, infiltrate the FBI headquarters,make a mockery of them without even knowing it, and abuse their resources. Cause he uses the FBIs vast intelligence to do a cyber battle with Batman. Of course he could still do that with being a Fed,but as I said about the Fed idea,its a little too simple for me. Also the plot is him hunting Batman as a Fed,but think of the drama you could have if he knew about it? Like,framing Bruce Wayne for murder, to make the challenge harder for him. Also could a Fed be trusted to make friends with a crime boss?
Many free reign opportunities if he wasnt a Fed,who didnt know who Batman was. Im not saying "dont like the Fed idea",but look for more interesting ideas as well as that. Dont just stick to 1 thing,thats all.
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My ideas is that the Riddler could be portrayed as something of a twisted Social Darwinist who creates life-or-death situations for the people of Gotham (and for Batman) in a game of wits. The Social Darwinist aspect could be that he feels that only the "strongest"-intellectually or otherwise-are fit to live.
GaiusBaltar
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Hey, that's a very interesting idea and I hope people talk about it. Since this is a better-suited thread, I'm putting here what I said to you back in the other thread.
The Riddler is the most wanted villain for the sequel, according to a poll in another thread of these boards. Coincidentally, he has been linked to some form of social darwinism more than once here: in a popular idea among many posters, the Riddler should be adapted with a twist into a very probable storyline of Batman being hunted by the authorities, and that twist makes Edward Nygma/Nashton an FBI agent leading a task force team fully bent on identifying and catching the Batman, now Gotham's public enemy number 1. That version of Nygma should be all about his intellectual superiority and how the Law (his side of the battle) is entitled to do anything to get the work done. His obsession and frustration with aprehending the Batman leads him to the most unorthodox methods: creating a fake criminal persona called the Riddler, fashioned after Gotham's emergent criminal freak movement, and using him to place deathtraps with Riddles with the objective of luring the Batman out and defeating him. Eventually Nygma goes mad and fully embraces the Riddler persona, fixated with beating the Batman at any cost.
Another more traditional route for the Riddler, also discussed here, involves him leaving large deathtraps that put many people in danger, taunting the Batman into a game of wits. Here the social darwinism angle is also quite feasible, since the Riddler that knowledge is power and he is just gaining the power he deserves and cleansing Gotham in the process, letting those who can't solve his riddles die in his traps, weeding out the imbeciles and ignorants he considers societies biggest restraints.
In any case, the next villain should posit some kind of ideology, and in implementing that ideology, along with his personal goals, he should put Batman and all of Gotham in danger. That is, after all, what Nolan's series have consistently been about.
Another more traditional route for the Riddler, also discussed here, involves him leaving large deathtraps that put many people in danger, taunting the Batman into a game of wits. Here the social darwinism angle is also quite feasible, since the Riddler that knowledge is power and he is just gaining the power he deserves and cleansing Gotham in the process, letting those who can't solve his riddles die in his traps, weeding out the imbeciles and ignorants he considers societies biggest restraints.
In any case, the next villain should posit some kind of ideology, and in implementing that ideology, along with his personal goals, he should put Batman and all of Gotham in danger. That is, after all, what Nolan's series have consistently been about.
Heres what I think. Riddler should wear his outfit,but just an olive coloured suit,nothing too zany. Black shirt,olive colured tie,with question marks he has painted on himself. Black gloves,a darkish green bowler and black shades. He speaks in a very calm,collected and confident manner,very certain of everything. A bit like how John Glover spoke in BTAS and Robert Englund in The Batman. Cause he's not too much into yet.
After he turns mad,he paints question marks on his suit in all different shapes,sizes and styles. His mannerisms become more hyperactive and wickedly sadistic,but he still manages to retain a cool and calm head,after buckets of sweat.
Towards the end as he deteriorates and obsesses further,he abandons what made him a gentleman,the shirt,tie and hat,but keeps his jacket and paints a large question mark on his abdomen.
After he turns mad,he paints question marks on his suit in all different shapes,sizes and styles. His mannerisms become more hyperactive and wickedly sadistic,but he still manages to retain a cool and calm head,after buckets of sweat.
Towards the end as he deteriorates and obsesses further,he abandons what made him a gentleman,the shirt,tie and hat,but keeps his jacket and paints a large question mark on his abdomen.
Not everyone can be satisfied. Most people want Riddler to appear almost identical to the comics,others dont. I dont see the bowler working at all,lol. If The Joker was giving a new punkish and realistic makeover,why cant Riddler? I think it just depends on what sort of character he will be.
The Fed characterisation. Starts of with somewhat of the classic look then he mentally deteriorates.
But I see Nolan doing something straight from Azzarello's interpretation,the punkish look. Fedora. Shades. Jacket,Jeans,Sneaks and a few question mark tattoos around his naval. I would like that look,but I say Azzarellos interp gets slightly mixed in with the main continuity Riddler look.
Mister H.
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I just think Nolan would only portray Riddler as a criminal mastermind, and intelligent people don't normally dress anything like Azzarello's interpretation of the character.
I think of the Unibomber when I think of a Riddler in Nolan's Gotham. He'd be a mystery, much like the Batman, and for much of the film we'd just see police sketches based on eyewitness accounts. Maybe we'd catch glimpses of him doing surveillance in a black hoodie with dark sunglasses and then eventually get the big reveal, with him resembling a more "traditional" Riddler. How to do this is something I won't bother myself with, as that is Nolan's job, but I think it would be interesting to see him revealed as one of the "good guys"-- a fed, detective, private investigator. How he ends up in some kind of green garb with question marks is beyond me-- and I don't think he will. I think a question mark tattoo reveal, like Dollarhyde's in Red Dragon, would be pretty cool...
Heres the interp Im using in my story.
We are first introduced to Nashton in his home. He has a wife and a 10 year old daughter. He is a serious, straightforward man,but around his home are complex puzzles and games,he has a great love for things like that. Obsessivly trying to teach his daughter how to play chess and becomes annoyed if she gives up. He always tells her "Youre in it to win it". But Edward has a secret that only he and his wife know about,a mental illness, "obsessive compulsive disorder" and must take medication. If the truth were to come out,he would lose his job as a Fed. He shows the signs by doing things and having to finish them before anything else,many of his colleagues believe its Edwards dedication,in reality its his illness,but his medication suppresses that. Once he starts something,he cant stop and his mood deteriorates until he gains total satisfaction.
We are first introduced to Nashton in his home. He has a wife and a 10 year old daughter. He is a serious, straightforward man,but around his home are complex puzzles and games,he has a great love for things like that. Obsessivly trying to teach his daughter how to play chess and becomes annoyed if she gives up. He always tells her "Youre in it to win it". But Edward has a secret that only he and his wife know about,a mental illness, "obsessive compulsive disorder" and must take medication. If the truth were to come out,he would lose his job as a Fed. He shows the signs by doing things and having to finish them before anything else,many of his colleagues believe its Edwards dedication,in reality its his illness,but his medication suppresses that. Once he starts something,he cant stop and his mood deteriorates until he gains total satisfaction.
ALittlePush
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Some ideas I had.
First Idea
Riddler is a newly promoted detective working under Commissioner Gordon. He has worked in the GCPD as a cop for eight years, and is a long time admirer of Gordon and his stand against corruption within the GCPD.
Riddler would respect Gordon and follow his orders without question. So when Riddler accidentally finds out that Gordon is working with Batman on the sly, he's going to feel betrayed. He's going to feel a little bit annoyed that the man who he's been inspired by and looked up to and admired for his honesty is lying to the whole city. So Riddler goes home, gets drunk, and begins to formulate a plan on how to expose his boss for the deceptive liar that he is.
He takes a pair of scissors and begins cutting letters from the newspaper to make a riddle. He then sends the riddle anonymously to Gordon as a warning that someone knows about him and Batman. When Gordon seemingly ignores the riddle, Riddler sends one to Gordon's wife, son and daughter which unsettles Gordon's wife. Gordon, unaware of Riddler's plan, then assigns Riddler to protect his family and find out who is sending the riddles. Gordon's son inadvertently reveals to Riddler exactly what happened at the end of TDK and how Batman is innocent. This revelation blows Riddler's whole world apart as Gordon's lies are bigger than he first thought. Riddler then decides to up his game and begins sending the riddles to various news outlets such as newspapers and news channels. When the riddles are aired on television, it draws Batman's attention. The Riddler becomes obsessed with trying to figure out why Batman would let himself be blamed for crimes he didn't commit.
Second Idea
Riddler would appear as Edward Nashton, an FBI agent who is very dedicated to his work, always gets his man, that sort of thing. He becomes frustrated about his failure to catch Batman so his methods become more and more unorthodox in order to lure Batman out. He becomes the Riddler as a trap for Batman. The Riddles are all to lead Batman to Nashton and his arrest. However, the more frustrated Nashton becomes, the more he gets into the Riddler role. He becomes so obsessed with catching Batman that the Riddler isnt just a trap for Batman anymore but an actual threat to Gotham.
Third Idea
Riddler would appear predominately as Edward Nashton, a new detective in the MCU. He would be one of Gordons handpicked team alongside Stephens, Bullock, Montoya and a couple of others. He would be very quiet and meek, constantly dominated by his co-workers, not necessarily deliberately but because he feels he cant say no to their requests such as doing some extra paper work etc. Basically he gets taken advantage of and it frustrates him, so he becomes the Riddler to prove that he isnt a doormat and that he is smarter than them all.
The Riddler wouldnt appear in the movie as such. The riddles would appear and Nashton would appear throughout the movie. He would only be revealed as the Riddler towards the end of the movie.
Which idea is better?
First Idea
Riddler is a newly promoted detective working under Commissioner Gordon. He has worked in the GCPD as a cop for eight years, and is a long time admirer of Gordon and his stand against corruption within the GCPD.
Riddler would respect Gordon and follow his orders without question. So when Riddler accidentally finds out that Gordon is working with Batman on the sly, he's going to feel betrayed. He's going to feel a little bit annoyed that the man who he's been inspired by and looked up to and admired for his honesty is lying to the whole city. So Riddler goes home, gets drunk, and begins to formulate a plan on how to expose his boss for the deceptive liar that he is.
He takes a pair of scissors and begins cutting letters from the newspaper to make a riddle. He then sends the riddle anonymously to Gordon as a warning that someone knows about him and Batman. When Gordon seemingly ignores the riddle, Riddler sends one to Gordon's wife, son and daughter which unsettles Gordon's wife. Gordon, unaware of Riddler's plan, then assigns Riddler to protect his family and find out who is sending the riddles. Gordon's son inadvertently reveals to Riddler exactly what happened at the end of TDK and how Batman is innocent. This revelation blows Riddler's whole world apart as Gordon's lies are bigger than he first thought. Riddler then decides to up his game and begins sending the riddles to various news outlets such as newspapers and news channels. When the riddles are aired on television, it draws Batman's attention. The Riddler becomes obsessed with trying to figure out why Batman would let himself be blamed for crimes he didn't commit.
Second Idea
Riddler would appear as Edward Nashton, an FBI agent who is very dedicated to his work, always gets his man, that sort of thing. He becomes frustrated about his failure to catch Batman so his methods become more and more unorthodox in order to lure Batman out. He becomes the Riddler as a trap for Batman. The Riddles are all to lead Batman to Nashton and his arrest. However, the more frustrated Nashton becomes, the more he gets into the Riddler role. He becomes so obsessed with catching Batman that the Riddler isnt just a trap for Batman anymore but an actual threat to Gotham.
Third Idea
Riddler would appear predominately as Edward Nashton, a new detective in the MCU. He would be one of Gordons handpicked team alongside Stephens, Bullock, Montoya and a couple of others. He would be very quiet and meek, constantly dominated by his co-workers, not necessarily deliberately but because he feels he cant say no to their requests such as doing some extra paper work etc. Basically he gets taken advantage of and it frustrates him, so he becomes the Riddler to prove that he isnt a doormat and that he is smarter than them all.
The Riddler wouldnt appear in the movie as such. The riddles would appear and Nashton would appear throughout the movie. He would only be revealed as the Riddler towards the end of the movie.
Which idea is better?
finalrelief
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First one's good, I would give him a family or someone he cares about that get's badly hurt (accidently) and Batman appears to be the cause, which the Riddler would want to psychologically torture the batman worse than he felt, it would lead him to figuring out who Batman really is and draws him into a series of games/tests/riddles. I'd like a seven style, Jokeresque, Red Dragon type Riddler if that makes any sense at all. Dark, creepy, genius, interesting.
Changing Riddler from a scientist into a Fed is far enough,without changing him into Jigsaw...just throw in the pig mask too. He doesnt need to be changed that much. Just the same,only with a realistic makeover.
IMO
Bowler Hat is gay...I like a black Fedora,or something similar.
A plain green suit with a question mark tie is boring. Id like him to have a nice smart green overcoat,with painted question marks on it...NOTHING wrong with that. There is no excuse why he cant wear it.
No Tonto Mask,or Elton John styled glasses...just black shades.
A plain, smart BLACK suit. Black hat and black shades. A dark Green Overcoat,with a few question marks painted on. Finally,keeping his Overcoat, but removing his jacket,shirt and tie and painting a huge black question mark on his exposed torso.
Not too different,or too much the same.
IMO
Bowler Hat is gay...I like a black Fedora,or something similar.
A plain green suit with a question mark tie is boring. Id like him to have a nice smart green overcoat,with painted question marks on it...NOTHING wrong with that. There is no excuse why he cant wear it.
No Tonto Mask,or Elton John styled glasses...just black shades.
A plain, smart BLACK suit. Black hat and black shades. A dark Green Overcoat,with a few question marks painted on. Finally,keeping his Overcoat, but removing his jacket,shirt and tie and painting a huge black question mark on his exposed torso.
Not too different,or too much the same.
What's so wrong about bowler hats? They didn't look gay in The Thomas Crown Affair. Introduce it properly and there we go, it can be a great display of the Riddler's insanity and sense of superiority. Basically you want Lee Bermejo's take, who thought the Riddler looked ridiculous and made him go all hipster. I'm not sure if that even matches the character we want. With Nolan's love for suits and elegance I'm not sure if we are prone to get hipster overcoats and converse shoes (yikes). Yes, there is something wrong with "a nice smart green overcoat with question marks painted on it"... first of all: what's so smart about that? The Riddler in "Joker" was a nerdy kid and Azzarello and Bermejo kept in mind he wasn't supposed to be threatening. You may want t make him look cool, but there was nothing crazy or menacing about him, not a damn thing. Make him more classic and contained, with glitches of restrained insanity, like Nolan's Jonathan Crane. He wore a suit and there was nothing wrong about that. If someone else is going to wear a suit, the Riddler could be a perfect candidate.
Joker wore an overcoat. Bowler Hats are too fruity. I think a more traditional hat would be better,like what people wore in the old days,I dont know the name.
Riddlers decent into madness shouldnt be immediate like Scarecrow or Joker. The guy has just become a criminal in order to take down Batman,he hasnt gone overboard. He has no plans to keep up his Riddler persona forever,but he does. He goes mad and throws away everything that made him hidden, mysterious and the reminders of his sanity,because he is now fully "The Riddler". So in sequels,we can perhaps see the green suit or something different.
He is in all black suit,to keep his identity hidden. Wearing a green overcoat,with question marks on it to subtly show his mark,like the tie does. He goes mad,doesnt care about his mysterious black suit anymore and wears or does something to make him stand out further.
Riddlers decent into madness shouldnt be immediate like Scarecrow or Joker. The guy has just become a criminal in order to take down Batman,he hasnt gone overboard. He has no plans to keep up his Riddler persona forever,but he does. He goes mad and throws away everything that made him hidden, mysterious and the reminders of his sanity,because he is now fully "The Riddler". So in sequels,we can perhaps see the green suit or something different.
He is in all black suit,to keep his identity hidden. Wearing a green overcoat,with question marks on it to subtly show his mark,like the tie does. He goes mad,doesnt care about his mysterious black suit anymore and wears or does something to make him stand out further.
You mean a Fedora hat and at least the bowler hat would get some kind of explanation while also being faithful to the comics, instead of the fedora, who would be included just because some people think it looks cool again.The Joker wore an overcoat over a suit... you're suggesting an overcoat over a naked torso. You can understand where my concerns come from.Rodrigo90 said:
Why in the sequels? Why not in the next movie already? IF the Riddler is making it up, why not have him do stuff that even he considers fruity AT FIRST, like the bowler hat?Sanity and insanity should have nothing to do with fashion changes but with actions and intentions. The Joker dressed like he did because he had a reason for it. I cannot fathom a "pre-Riddler" Edward, or a full-blown Riddler for that matter, that would decide without deeper motive to dress like you're saying.
Ace of Knaves
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I really like the Fed idea... 
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