Riots in Missouri - Part 1

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I don't think it's unreasonable to ask why Wilson couldn't have shot out his kneecaps, or something. But you can't charge at a police officer and then complain about what happens. At that point you're just asking for it, and you're responsible for your own fate.

Officers(and anyone who takes gun training) are taught to shoot center mass because it's the biggest target and you don't want to miss once you've decided the threat is great enough to shoot. Shooting at arms or legs to wound is much more difficult to do than it sounds, and ideally you want to fire as few shots as possible in a public area to avoid any accidental ricochets or collateral damage.

Correct, as I have mentioned multiple times in this and similar threads (same thing about shooting out the tires of a moving vehicle-it typically is not authorized or trained for) and to add to that, shooting center mass is usually police policy as well.

Imagine this scenario...officer involved in a shooting decides to go against his training and take out kneecaps. Here are some possible fallouts: officer is subject to a lawsuit when he injures/maims the person and lawsuit has potential because the officer did not follow policy/training (same rule applies for warning shots).

Another scenario....officer shoots kneecaps on ths incident, but is later involved in another shooting where he follows his training and shoots center mass and kills the person involved in the 2nd incident. Now, this persons family has a legitimate complaint because he could have merely shot kneecaps this time, like he has done in the past and their family member would still be alive. They could say he tried to kill their family member and why...why was their family member more of a threat than the person in the first incident.

Now, these types of "what ifs" can be done to death, but essentially, other than having the best opportunity to stop the threat, if the officer follows his training everytime, it prevents mistakes and keeps them within policy, which helps prevent public/media criticism, lawsuits, and so on.

Officers are trained to react the same way everytime an incident calls for deadly force. This prevents mistakes and second guessing their reactions (which should be to follow their training). Obviously, in a deadly force scenario, 2nd guessing can cost the officer their life.
 
I have not been following this with a close eye looking for every minute detail to pick apart.
Except that's exactly what you are doing.
Actually what I said proves I have not been following closely or I would have read there were two different reports on it, wouldn't I?

the [REPORTING OF THE] story changed from his not knowing he was a suspect to him knowing it

Fixed.
No need to fix something you didn't write. It's literally putting words in my mouth I did not speak. It would be like me making it appear you said something you didn't, which is exactly what you "fixing" it is doing.

The officers story didn't change, since we didn't know it yet. The reporting of the story is what changed.

The Police chief said 1st contact was not about the robbery, more than that he didn't know, and he said so.
There were two contacts, 1st he didn't know -2nd (the return) he did, that's why the officer backed up.
Figure it out.
All of this is why breaking news and poor journalistic reporting is causing so many problems.

Initial reports come in and later are contradicted or altered by newer ones, which in turn get further "clarified" to the point that the original story has so many incorrect details it leads to misinformation like this if you are not closely following every detail of what is going on.

Like I said, I haven't been following it that closely. I have had my fill of police in the news and how they are so often quick to shoot people, or make outrageous claims or just bold face lie to the public.
 
By chase for evading you mean fire multiple times at him while he was running away, right? What I find unbelievable in Wilson's story is that Mike would suddenly turn around and rush after the officer at that point. It doesnt make any sense to get shot, run away, and then turn around and charge at the officer who's shooting at you.

Where is the majority of witness accounts that say Mike charged at the officer? Most of the ones Ive read or seen point to Mike surrendering with his arms to up.
Was Brown shot in the back? No. You have no point.
 
By chase for evading you mean fire multiple times at him while he was running away, right? What I find unbelievable in Wilson's story is that Mike would suddenly turn around and rush after the officer at that point. It doesnt make any sense to get shot, run away, and then turn around and charge at the officer who's shooting at you.

Where is the majority of witness accounts that say Mike charged at the officer? Most of the ones Ive read or seen point to Mike surrendering with his arms to up.
There are several different eye witness accounts. Some say he had his hands up, others say he didn't. Some say he was coming towards the officer, some say he was just standing there, others say he was running away. Which is just more proof that eye witness accounts are wildly inaccurate.

That's why evidence trumps eye witness accounts.
 
Was Brown shot in the back? No. You have no point.
One of the bullets entered the back of his arm. Only way that happens is if its facing the shooter, and that happens when your back is to him. Which supports witness statements that Wilson shot at Mike Brown while he was running away.

And what do you mean I dont have a point? What point do you think I dont have?

Howlett said:
There are several different eye witness accounts. Some say he had his hands up, others say he didn't. Some say he was coming towards the officer, some say he was just standing there, others say he was running away. Which is just more proof that eye witness accounts are wildly inaccurate.

That's why evidence trumps eye witness accounts.
Im still waiting for eyewitness accounts other than Wilson's that state that Mike Brown charged at him. I havent seen anyone say that. All Ive seen is the same story over and over. That he was running away. Stopped and turned around with his hands up and then Wilson shoots him dead.

How does the forensic evidence trump eyewitness accounts when it doesnt even conclusively prove anything without the use of witness testimony?
 
One of the bullets entered the back of his arm. Only way that happens is if its facing the shooter, and that happens when your back is to him. Which supports witness statements that Wilson shot at Mike Brown while he was running away.

And what do you mean I dont have a point? What point do you think I dont have?


Im still waiting for eyewitness accounts other than Wilson's that state that Mike Brown charged at him. I havent seen anyone say that. All Ive seen is the same story over and over. That he was running away. Stopped and turned around with his hands up and then Wilson shoots him dead.

How does the forensic evidence trump eyewitness accounts when it doesnt even conclusively prove anything without the use of witness testimony?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

Let me be clear, I do not think that the officer is innocent in this....that has not been proven.... BUT, the misinformation out there is extensive and all evidence should be looked at, and taken into consideration, the least of which should be eyewitness accounts that so obviously include bias within all parties, but should be a part of the investigation, NOT the number one thing people go on.
 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

Let me be clear, I do not think that the officer is innocent in this....that has not been proven.... BUT, the misinformation out there is extensive and all evidence should be looked at, and taken into consideration, the least of which should be eyewitness accounts that so obviously include bias within all parties, but should be a part of the investigation, NOT the number one thing people go on.
Im glad you brought up misinformation. DailyKos does a great breakdown on how the writers of this St Louis Dispatch article concerning the leaked autopsy results lied to mislead their readers into believing that the forensic evidence proved that Michael Brown went for the Wilson's gun and that the witness accounts were wrong about Wilson shooting at Brown while he was running or that he was shot with his hands up.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...-What-the-St-Louis-Post-Dispatch-Says-It-Does

Disgusting how those women are trying to sway public opinion onto the side of Wilson with blatant lies and misinformation.
 
No more disgusting than others totally disregarding evidence, making assumptions minutes afterwards, and being unwilling to wait to see all evidence before convicting. Both sides are slobbering all over the evidence that proves their side is right. My hope is that the Grand Jury will allow this to go to a trial...But honestly, it probably really doesn't matter, people have already made up their mind one way or the other. BTW, the autopsy photo was provided by the ME that the family brought in on their own.
 
From Holder's response and considering his power, if there was anyway to avoid a riot and get Wilson in jail, somewhere down the line we would have saw leaks condemning Wilson. As investigations have taken place and more witnesses stepped forward, it is looking like a clean shoot instead.

Based on the leaks?

The thing about the leaks is that if it's coming from the Police department, then they'd all be favorable. Even if it's actually not favorable to either side, like the recently leaked autopsy report. The leak made it sound like it was favorable to Wilson, while in fact it wasn't favorable to either side.

Officers(and anyone who takes gun training) are taught to shoot center mass because it's the biggest target and you don't want to miss once you've decided the threat is great enough to shoot. Shooting at arms or legs to wound is much more difficult to do than it sounds, and ideally you want to fire as few shots as possible in a public area to avoid any accidental ricochets or collateral damage.

Just as an aside, I think the NYPD missed that training. There's alot of shootings here in New York where the NYPD wind up shooting someone that's like a block away while trying to shoot someone a few feet away from them.

Pretty sure that's a sign they can't shoot for ****.

According to majority of witness reports: Brown attacked the cop, then evaded. When the cop started to chase for evading, he turned around and moved forward. Wilson said more than once according to multiple witnesses to stop, and it was ignored. The moment he attacked the cop he was considered a serious threat, which is why he was shot for proceeding against order. I don't know why that sounds so unbelievable to you :o

Didn't multiple witnesses (around like eight or nine?) say Brown held his hands up?

The evidence suggests a struggle, and him being shot at (at least once) at very close range.

Not just evidence, but atleast one witness said so, too. Brown's friend, who was with him when the event happened said there was one. There's never been any doubt about the scuffle. Though, not sure about the gun going off in the car being mentioned...or if that's even been confirmed.
 
Report: FAA no-fly zone over Ferguson meant to ban media

This story just keeps making the cops look worse and worse. Now it turns out they attempted to ban the media and only the media from the airspace above Ferguson.

A report that the federal government restricted airspace over Ferguson, Missouri, to block media coverage of protests is "disturbing," a St. Louis alderman told CNN on Monday.

The revelations in the Associated Press story, published Sunday, only further hurt the already damaged trust between residents and authorities, St. Louis alderman Antonio French told CNN.

The AP's story, he said, "shows that there seemed to be an active campaign to keep what was happening out of the spotlight, to suppress media coverage" of demonstrations and riots in Ferguson following the police shooting of Michael Brown, a black teenager who witnesses say had his arms up and was surrendering when a white police officer shot him August 9.

Authorities contend that Brown attacked the officer in his car and tried to take his gun.

St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar will hold a press conference at 5 p.m. ET Monday to address the AP story.

Keeping the media out?

Brown's shooting sparked a federal civil rights inquiry and a grand jury investigation. In the immediate days after Brown's killing, an intense national spotlight shone on the St. Louis suburb.

A rush of media went to Ferguson. Several journalists were arrested, and law enforcement officers were seen and heard on video harassing members of the media. An Al Jazeera America correspondent told CNN's Brian Stelter that he felt rubber bullets and tear gas were shot at his crew intentionally.

Journalists arrested in Ferguson

At the time, police requested a restriction of airspace surrounding Ferguson, and the Federal Aviation Administration agreed to it for safety reasons. But according to recorded telephone conversations that AP obtained, the ban was aimed at keeping news helicopters from flying over Ferguson.

On August 12, the morning after the FAA imposed the first flight ban, FAA air traffic managers tried to redefine the flight ban so that police helicopters and commercial flights running at nearby Lambert-St. Louis International Airports could fly, according to AP. They were struggling to explain how those flights were cleared to fly, but others were not, the news agency said.

"They finally admitted it really was to keep the media out," said one FAA manager about the St. Louis County Police in a series of recorded telephone conversations that AP has.

AP reported that a manager at the FAA's Kansas City center said police "did not care if you ran commercial traffic through this TFR (temporary flight restriction) all day long. They didn't want media in there."

"There is really ... no option for a TFR that says, you know, 'OK, everybody but the media is OK,'" the manager said, the AP reported.

The managers then crafted wording they felt would keep news helicopters out of the controlled zone but not interfere with other air traffic, according to AP.

FAA's response to CNN

CNN asked the FAA about the Associated Press story and received a written statement that read, in part: "FAA cannot and will never exclusively ban media from covering an event of national significance and media was never banned from covering the ongoing events in Ferguson in this case."

On Monday, French, the St. Louis alderman, told CNN: "When you take these new facts and add them to what we saw -- the targeting of journalists including violence perpetuated toward journalists -- this (the new allegation involving the FAA and police) is not the kind of thing that you'd think would happen in our country."

The alderman said he hoped the AP story will ignite a conversation or some kind of probe.

"We really need to find out what was behind this, who was behind this, who authorized this, is this kind of thing done regularly?" French said. "When things like this happen it's about how we (local leaders) respond to it."

French noted that he can urge an investigation -- but he's a city representative, not a county one, and doesn't have the authority to demand a probe, he said.

The flight restrictions were lifted on August 22, the AP report said, citing records.

In its statement to CNN, the FAA said: "There is nothing more important to the FAA than the safety of the National Airspace System and people on the ground. When local law enforcement reports a danger to aircraft, including guns fired into the air that could impact low flying aircraft, the FAA will always err on the side of safety."

It continues, "When requested and no safety or security issues exist, the FAA actively facilitates media access to airspace, making provisions that allow properly accredited media representatives to operate inside the boundaries of temporarily restricted airspace through proper coordination with air traffic controllers or other appropriate officials. To the best of our knowledge, during the 11 day period flight restrictions of varying levels were in place, no media outlets objected to any of the restrictions."

A violation of the Constitution?

The American Civil Liberties Union weighed in on the AP story Monday.

"Just as the ACLU and ACLU of Missouri are working to protect the rights of protesters on the ground, we will protect them in the air as well," said Lee Rowland, a staff attorney at the ACLU's New York headquarters. She serves as lead counsel in federal First Amendment cases.

"Its very troubling to the ACLU and it should be extremely troubling to anyone in the public who wants to get news about what their government is up to," she said. "This was a no fly zone targeted at the media and it appears it was not for safety purposes. If indeed the air restrictions were only to keep the media out, it is a constitutional violation of the freedom of the press."

CNN
 
Report: FAA no-fly zone over Ferguson meant to ban media

This story just keeps making the cops look worse and worse. Now it turns out they attempted to ban the media and only the media from the airspace above Ferguson.



CNN
It does sound pretty sketchy, but it could very well also be for safety reasons since helicopters were shot at last time.
 
Hmmmm....I just don't see it. First of all, what good would just keeping the media from flying over? If they wanted to actually stop or slow down coverage you would need to stop them on the ground.

Seems to me the reason they would ban only the media is because you need to keep police in the air over the area, and it is the media that would be flying close enough to get shot at....sooooo????? seems to me to be more about safety than anything else.
 
Hmmmm....I just don't see it. First of all, what good would just keeping the media from flying over? If they wanted to actually stop or slow down coverage you would need to stop them on the ground.

Doubtful there's anything amiss with the attempted aircraft ban, but your explanation doesn't quite work out.

The cops know the backroads or alleyways better than tourist drivers of news vans, even if the latter are using GPS/maps.

And it's far easier for ground vehicles to crash into each other, or get in the way of police work. There is more space, and far more usable angles in the open air.

So however you approach it, it's a little weird.
 
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I think the media presence brought out of towner trouble makers into the fold who wanted to be on tv, and weren't really as concerned about what happened.
 
Doubtful there's anything amiss with the attempted aircraft ban, but your explanation doesn't quite work out.

The cops know the backroads or alleyways better than tourist drivers of news vans, even if the latter are using GPS/maps.

And it's far easier for ground vehicles to crash into each other, or get in the way of police work. There is more space, and far more usable angles in the open air.

So however you approach it, it's a little weird.
Yeah, but car crashes are limited to roads, if a news copter crashes into a police copter, they could crash into buildings and do massive damage.
 
Doubtful there's anything amiss with the attempted aircraft ban, but your explanation doesn't quite work out.

The cops know the backroads or alleyways better than tourist drivers of news vans, even if the latter are using GPS/maps.

And it's far easier for ground vehicles to crash into each other, or get in the way of police work. There is more space, and far more usable angles in the open air.

So however you approach it, it's a little weird.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but ok???
 
I think the media presence brought out of towner trouble makers into the fold who wanted to be on tv, and weren't really as concerned about what happened.
I think the race baiters saw a money making opportunity and got people feverish for revenge that weren't really concerned about what happened.
 
Hmmmm....I just don't see it. First of all, what good would just keeping the media from flying over? If they wanted to actually stop or slow down coverage you would need to stop them on the ground.

Seems to me the reason they would ban only the media is because you need to keep police in the air over the area, and it is the media that would be flying close enough to get shot at....sooooo????? seems to me to be more about safety than anything else.

At the time, police requested a restriction of airspace surrounding Ferguson, and the Federal Aviation Administration agreed to it for safety reasons. But according to recorded telephone conversations that AP obtained, the ban was aimed at keeping news helicopters from flying over Ferguson.

On August 12, the morning after the FAA imposed the first flight ban, FAA air traffic managers tried to redefine the flight ban so that police helicopters and commercial flights running at nearby Lambert-St. Louis International Airports could fly, according to AP. They were struggling to explain how those flights were cleared to fly, but others were not, the news agency said.

"They finally admitted it really was to keep the media out," said one FAA manager about the St. Louis County Police in a series of recorded telephone conversations that AP has.

AP reported that a manager at the FAA's Kansas City center said police "did not care if you ran commercial traffic through this TFR (temporary flight restriction) all day long. They didn't want media in there."

"There is really ... no option for a TFR that says, you know, 'OK, everybody but the media is OK,'" the manager said, the AP reported.

The managers then crafted wording they felt would keep news helicopters out of the controlled zone but not interfere with other air traffic, according to AP.
Contradicts that. They did not care if any other aircraft were there, just the media alone.
 
Contradicts that. They did not care if any other aircraft were there, just the media alone.


Once again, your private aircraft will most likely be at a much higher altitude than media trying to get the best shot. So for the most part it would be only media and law enforcement at that altitude. Um, I don't really need media to be flying around up there to get the story, but I would like law enforcement where ever they are needed. AND AGAIN, how the hell does keeping media helicopters out of the air DO ANYTHING to stopping the media. It does nothing...the story would still get out, just as quickly.

So, meh....not a big deal. I think people are trying to find conspiracy crapola where there isn't any.
 
That's reaching for a conclusion. They don't mind airplanes taking off and landing at the nearby airport if the claim was protection of the airspace which contradicts virtually everything else we've seen from the cops in the Ferguson area surrounding the media. Or did you forget how they arrested reporters for doing their jobs?
 
It would be dumb to stop the landing and taking off at the nearby airport. Good grief, talk about reaching....

Call me when the "big bad police" are stopping the media at the population sign, and kicking them out before sunset.
 
I live in Saint Louis, MO.

I assure you all that, while STL is the most segregated city I have lived in, and I have lived all over the world, white people do live in Ferguson.

I also assure you all that the riots or, more specifically, the anger which caused the riots is justified and real.

That said, the continuation of them is not anything which anyone living in STL (including Ferguson) want to continue. The militarization of our police is nothing which should be taken lightly. It is a very dangerous situation, and it is spreading.
 
Missouri Gov. Declares State of Emergency Ahead of Ferguson Decision

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Missouri Governor Jay Nixon declared a state of emergency in Missouri Monday afternoon, just days before a grand jury is expected to reach a decision about whether to indict Darren Wilson, the St. Louis County police officer who killed Michael Brown in August. The declaration, which is good for 30 days, also activates the National Guard in Missouri.

The National Guard will be in place this week and will serve in a "secondary role," according to St. Louis mayor Francis Slay. "We do not want to make this look like it's the militarization of our police department," Slay said. "The cops are just here to keep the peace. They're not here to clash with protesters."

As the Washington Post's Wesley Lowery notes, Nixon's decision, while somewhat jarring to hear ahead of the grand jury's decision, doesn't come as a surprise.

While the official deadline for the grand jury is January 7, the St. Louis County prosecutor has said he expects a decision by mid- to late-November.

http://governor.mo.gov/news/executive-orders/executive-order-14-14

Well surely if they were going to convict him they would need to declare a state of emergency from all the happy rioters right?? :o
 
Was reading some comments from people on Facebook, and a lot of them don't give a damn what the evidence or autopsy says, they will rage if Wilson isn't sentenced to death row, basically.

If I was Wilson, I think I'd be considering relocating.
 
So, the KKK is threatening to use violence on the protesters. This is going to go well...

https://news.vice.com/article/kkk-missouri-chapter-threatens-ferguson-protesters-with-lethal-force

the-kkk-is-pledging-lethal-force-against-ferguson-protesters-body-image-1415900011.png


In actual good news, Anonymous has declared war on the KKK in Ferguson.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...k-twitter-accounts-ferguson-threats/19215047/

Anonymous, a network of unnamed online activists who hack as a form of protest and "cyberwarfare," has taken aim at the Ku Klux Klan.


The group claims to have hacked KKK websites and social media accounts and has also published the names of individuals it says are Klan members.
In a video and online posts, Anonymous said the attack is retaliation for KKK threats to use "lethal force" against protesters in Ferguson, Mo.
"Anonymous won't tolerate racism in any form, or the suppression of the right to protest," the group wrote in a blog post on the website anonhq.com.


The group appears to have taken over KKK's Twitter account, @KuKluxKlanUSA, tweeting Sunday, "You should've expected us. #OpKKK continues to be a success. Freedom will prevail."
The next day the group tweeted an image of a unicorn from the same Twitter handle.


Anonymous announced the cyberattack with a YouTube video, where they said they are monitoring KKK servers.
"Anything you upload will be taken down. Anything you use to promote the KKK will be shutdown," an altered voice says in the video.

"We are not attacking you because of what you believe in, as we fight for freedom of speech. We are attacking you because of your threats to use lethal attacks against us at the Ferguson protests," Anonymous said.
 
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