Riots in Missouri - Part 1

[DarthSkywalker]

You are hedging too. You seem to think that the officer had all the time in the world to behave in a calm and reasonable manner. In all reality, it took about 90 seconds from start to finish.

The truth is, the reason why police are trained to use such force is because these incidents can go haywire very, very quickly.

And yes, I agree, there are plenty of cases of police using inappropriate force. My point is, this is not that case. This is a terrible case to show police behaving inappropriately.

Wilson made the choice of how much time he had. He could have cleared his head, thought. Instead he decided he needed to pursue, possibly why not clear headed.

And I disagree. I think this is a perfectly good example of a cop starting a confrontation, it escalating, and then ending with the cop perfectly find and unarmed civilian dead.

 

[Kelly]

Wilson made the choice of how much time he had. He could have cleared his head, thought. Instead he decided he needed to pursue, possibly why not clear headed.

And I disagree. I think this is a perfectly good example of a cop starting a confrontation, it escalating, and then ending with the cop perfectly find and unarmed civilian dead.

I don't think we can state that with certainty without reading the accounts of the 60 witnesses.

 

[Flint Marko]

Wilson made the choice of how much time he had. He could have cleared his head, thought. Instead he decided he needed to pursue, possibly why not clear headed.

And I disagree. I think this is a perfectly good example of a cop starting a confrontation, it escalating, and then ending with the cop perfectly find and unarmed civilian dead.

What do you mean the cop started the confrontation? Wasn't he just doing his job trying to arrest someone who had just committed a crime, and then was assaulted by said criminal?

 

[Sun_Down]

Well, at that point you are now comparing a citizen with a police officer. You have a wanna be cop doing what a cop would do, with an actual cop.

But, honestly, I have a big problem with both Brown and Wilson... Why didn't Brown simply keep an eye on Brown from a distance and wait for back up, and why did Brown turn around, when he had a chance to book it outta there. I just don't know.

These sorts of tragedies usually involve two parties being idiots. Zimmerman/Martin was no different.

My issue is that - forgive the cliche - the power of the badge carries great responsibility. Wilson's own account sounds like a cop looking for trouble and acting tough, then immediately playing the "I'm a scared little boy" card. That just isn't the kind of personality I want having a gun and a badge.

 

[Tempest]

Well, at that point you are now comparing a citizen with a police officer. You have a wanna be cop doing what a cop would do, with an actual cop.

But, honestly, I have a big problem with both Brown and Wilson... Why didn't Brown simply keep an eye on Brown from a distance and wait for back up, and why did Brown turn around, when he had a chance to book it outta there. I just don't know.

My understanding is that Wilson stopped Brown and his buddy because they were walking down the middle of the street. Wilson attempted to get out of the car, at which point Brown attacked him, shoving the officer back into the car and slamming the door on him. A struggle ensued over the weapon. Brown was shot, and retreated. Wilson gets out of the car, at which point Brown turns around and begins running towards him, and appeared to be reaching into his waist band, so Wilson fired at him.

Wilson was well within his rights to try to get out of the car. There's nothing wrong with that action.

 

[KalMart]

I do. It doesn't help.

Keep going. I'm with you on that, trust me.

The same can be said for people who live in high crime areas. They are conditioned not to trust cops because of their aggressive demeanor and bullying tactics.

Absolutely, and therein lies the real tragedy of anger feeding anger. there is no chicken or egg in this case.

Except the difference here is the cops are paid to do their job properly.

Yes they are…and in a lot of cases they do, even within the same departments where they don't. So the other side should be given weight as well, but it's obviously not convenient for feeding anger like a shooting is.

But anyway I don't want stay on the too long as it's obviously going to keep rolling. If it turns out that Wilson did more to instigate a confrontation than Brown did (like Zimmerman did), then he should definitely be held responsible for a wrongful death. But it needs to be fully investigated first, and if it turns out that he was justified, then we need to see that as well, and keep looking to improve what leads to terrible situations like this. I get where you're coming from, believe me. I'm thankful every day that I'm not in situations like that and I feel bad for those who are. But I have friends who are cops in bad parts of this city, and I have friends that aren't and have some real issues with those cops. I know the kind of anger they hold for each other.

Granted….hard to do when race is involved.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't think we can state that with certainty without reading the accounts of the 60 witnesses.

Wilson admitted to it on the stand. He started arguing with Brown, they fought after cussing at one another, he shot Brown, Brown was unarmed, and Wilson had no real injuries. What else do we need to know, at least in that regard ?

 

[Kelly]

These sorts of tragedies usually involve two parties being idiots. Zimmerman/Martin was no different.

My issue is that - forgive the cliche - the power of the badge carries great responsibility. Wilson's own account sounds like a cop looking for trouble and acting tough, then immediately playing the "I'm a scared little boy" card. That just isn't the kind of personality I want having a gun and a badge.

Well, maybe...but I (if I have time over the next couple of days)need to read the eyewitness accounts before speculating any further).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What do you mean the cop started the confrontation? Wasn't he just doing his job trying to arrest someone who had just committed a crime, and then was assaulted by said criminal?

Even if we all agree that Wilson was trying to arrest Brown because of the robbery, Wilson admits he got in a argument with Brown, where they cursed at one another back and forth.

What kind of behavior is that from a cop?

 

[Sun_Down]

What do you mean the cop started the confrontation? Wasn't he just doing his job trying to arrest someone who had just committed a crime, and then was assaulted by said criminal?

I assume you're referring to the convenience store theft? That's not been made clear, at least not to my knowledge. I think he started yelling at Brown for walking in the street. I don't think he knew anything about the theft.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

These sorts of tragedies usually involve two parties being idiots. Zimmerman/Martin was no different.

My issue is that - forgive the cliche - the power of the badge carries great responsibility. Wilson's own account sounds like a cop looking for trouble and acting tough, then immediately playing the "I'm a scared little boy" card. That just isn't the kind of personality I want having a gun and a badge.

I dunno about that. I wouldn't dare compare this situation to the Zimmeran/Martin one. I'm not sure what Martin could have done differently.

With Brown...I can think of a few things he could have done differently. Ultimately, I don't think those mistakes justify his death...but I do think both cases are different.

 

[Mike_D202]

Wilson admitted to it on the stand. He started arguing with Brown, they fought after cussing at one another, he shot Brown, Brown was unarmed, and Wilson had no real injuries. What else do we need to know, at least in that regard ?

He had facial bruising from being struck in the face.

Would it have been justified to shoot someone for punching you in the face? No. Would it have been justified to use lethal force if the subject tried to take your weapon and charge at you? Ask yourself that.

 

[Sun_Down]

He had facial bruising from being struck in the face.

It was the tiniest, mildest bruise I've ever seen.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah, he seemed fine to me. Surprising he even went to the hospital for that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Keep going. I'm with you on that, trust me.

Absolutely, and therein lies the real tragedy of anger feeding anger. there is no chicken or egg in this case.

I agree this is a cycle, but only one side has power which can be abused. Well, at least imo.

Yes they are…and in a lot of cases they do, even within the same departments where they don't. So the other side should be given weight as well, but it's obviously not convenient for feeding anger like a shooting is.

But anyway I don't want stay on the too long as it's obviously going to keep rolling. If it turns out that Wilson did more to instigate a confrontation than Brown did (like Zimmerman did), then he should definitely be held responsible for a wrongful death. But it needs to be fully investigated first, and if it turns out that he was justified, then we need to see that as well, and keep looking to improve what leads to terrible situations like this. I get where you're coming from, believe me. I'm thankful every day that I'm not in an environment like that and I feel bad for those who are.

Granted….hard to do when race is involved.

I have never been arrested, but I have been in a few situations where cops were called. Some were brilliant. They listened, they spoke firmly but with kindness and they tried to resolve the situation. I have also meant cops who feel they need to "control" everything, and that any word spoken that they did not ask for can result in cuffs coming out.

Is it every officer? No, but it doesn't matter. Because they aren't the ones who shoot when they don't have to. Those are the ones that also enjoy the confrontation, beyond shooting someone. The power trip.

 

[Flint Marko]

Even if we all agree that Wilson was trying to arrest Brown because of the robbery, Wilson admits he got in a argument with Brown, where they cursed at one another back and forth.

What kind of behavior is that from a cop?

The guy had just robbed a store and clearly was not cooperating with the officer. Who cares what words were exchanged? It isn't illegal to argue and swear and be a dick, but it is illegal to rob a store, not comply with the authorities, and then assault an officer.

I assume you're referring to the convenience store theft? That's not been made clear, at least not to my knowledge. I think he started yelling at Brown for walking in the street. I don't think he knew anything about the theft.

I admittedly don't know all the facts but from every account that I have read the officer had recognized Brown as the suspect while driving by, and reversed his car to confront him.
Here's one just recently posted on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, he seemed fine to me. Surprising he even went to the hospital for that.

Of course he went to the hospital. Need that to defend the case.

 

[SuperJediHero]

What happened tonight really really sucks, but so far right NOW I am at least glad the other cities are behaving without huge violence.

Good, keep it up! I'd HATE to see it get any worse. *SIGH*

 

[Sun_Down]

The guy had just robbed a store and clearly was not cooperating with the officer. Who cares what words were exchanged? It isn't illegal to argue and swear and be a dick, but it is illegal to rob a store, not comply with the authorities, and then assault an officer.


I admittedly don't know all the facts but from every account that I have read the officer had recognized Brown as the suspect while driving by, and reversed his car to confront him.
Here's one just recently posted on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html

Yeah, I don't think it's been made clear. But Wilson's own testimony was that he yelled at him to get out of the street, and that's how it started. Doesn't seem like Wilson was thinking of/even aware of the theft.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Of course he went to the hospital. Need that to defend the case.

Yeah, ultimately seemed like that was the case. Getting him in there to try and help his case in the shooting. Though, I don't think it does that.

Though...very funny that those pictures didn't manage to be leaked.

 

[KalMart]

I agree this is a cycle, but only one side has power which can be abused. Well, at least imo.

Yeah, but it's power that we the people need them to have when we need their help. they didn't just take it from everyone else. Is it abused from time to time? Sure, but so is all sorts of power. they might not all end in death right away, but in terms of eroding away at society and causing ever growing rifts and disparity? Just as bad. Everyone needs to be equally accountable.

I have never been arrested, but I have been in a few situations where cops were called. Some were brilliant. They listened, they spoke firmly but with kindness and they tried to resolve the situation. I have also meant cops who feel they need to "control" everything, and that any word spoken that they did not ask for can result in cuffs coming out.

Is it every officer? No, but it doesn't matter. Because they aren't the ones who shoot when they don't have to. Those are the ones that also enjoy the confrontation, beyond shooting someone. The power trip.

They're people.

 

[antsman41]

It was the tiniest, mildest bruise I've ever seen.

I've had worse bruises from my furniture...

 

[Mike_D202]

The guy had just robbed a store and clearly was not cooperating with the officer. Who cares what words were exchanged? It isn't illegal to argue and swear and be a dick, but it is illegal to rob a store, not comply with the authorities, and then assault an officer.


I admittedly don't know all the facts but from every account that I have read the officer had recognized Brown as the suspect while driving by, and reversed his car to confront him.
Here's one just recently posted on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html

I don't understand where some people are coming from. Did they want the cop to drive away after the subject started assaulting him? "Small bruises" or not he was still assaulting him. He was doing his job and the guy tried to muscle his way with the cop like he did with the shop owner beforehand.

 

[Grievous]

I feel so bad for that town. This isn't people crying out about injustice. It's thugs using something for an excuse to riot.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They're people.

Police officers? Of course. But they should be held to a higher standard, but instead are held to a lower one.