Days of Future Past "Romeo & Juliet Return?": The Official Jean Grey/Cyclops Debate - Part 2

[EnDz0n3]

Why did DOFP completely disregard the Vietnam war scene in Origins: Wolverine? According to that movie, Wolverine is supposed to be fighting in the Vietnam war with Sabertooth and Stryker so his younger self should've woke up in Vietnam, not in New York where he's implanting his private bone claw into some woman's ass. By putting Wolverine in New York, DOFP has completely discarded the established continuity that was set up in Origins which, in turn will effect the X-men trilogy, the Wolverine, and the 2023 half of DOFP so in a way, this movie DID reboot the franchise.

There's a difference between Singer (or any director) retconning what has been established in previous (and, to be frank, lesser regarded) films

and

rebooting.

This example you just gave is obviously an example of the former, not the latter.

 

[dax]

Sigh.

What you aren't getting is the previous films now exist in the original timeline. While the future films exist in the altered timeline. And no they didn't completely erase those films as the things that happened in X1/X3/Origins/X2/TW still exists in Future Wolverine's brain and Younger Xavier have seen some of moments from those films.

When you watch Days of Future Past, you will still have to watch the previous films because those films are still connected to and led to DOFP. Story-wise, the original timeline leads to DOFP and DOFP leads to Apocalypse.

Its not like the reboot situation with Raimi's Spider-Man/The AMazing Spider-Man and 90s Batman to the Dark Knight Trilogy.

What you don't get is that when X-Men: Apocalypse hits theaters, that movie will have no connection to the X-trilogy nor the Wolverine films whatsoever. Even if the previous films led up to DOFP, it doesn't mean that they'll be connected to future films regardless if Wolverine and Xavier remembers the original timeline. Everything that happens in X-men: Apocalypse from here-on-in will be as if the previous films (besides First Class and 1973 DOFP) never happened so yes, it is exactly like the reboot situation with the Spider-Man films and the Batman films.

There's a difference between Singer (or any director) retconning what has been established in previous (and, to be frank, lesser regarded) films

and

rebooting.

This example you just gave is obviously an example of the former, not the latter.

There is no difference because they both revolve around changing the stories. Whether if you're rewriting the story or erasing parts of it, you're still changing the story.

 

[marvelrobbins]

What you don't get is that when X-Men: Apocalypse hits theaters, that movie will have no connection to the X-trilogy nor the Wolverine films whatsoever. Even if the previous films led up to DOFP, it doesn't mean that they'll be connected to future films regardless if Wolverine and Xavier remembers the original timeline. Everything that happens in X-men: Apocalypse from here-on-in will be as if the previous films (besides First Class and 1973 DOFP) never happened so yes, it is exactly like the reboot situation with the Spider-Man films and the Batman films.




There is no difference because they both revolve around changing the stories. Whether if you're rewriting the story or erasing parts of it, you're still changing the story.

I agree with what your saying.We don't even know if we will see the wolverine who remembers the past films will be seen again.It may only be the wolverine who lived different life between 1973 and 2023 who will be seen.It's same situation with star trek.In theory everything still happened leading up to trek 2009 but now with possable exception of enterprise the films act like years of history never happened.If they still want to work William shatner into next trek film he would likely be future version of Pink Kirk just like original cast was older versions of FC cast including those introduced in APocalypse.The new terminator film is also similar by things playing out as they were in original film till Kyle reese is in past and they apparently future time traveling completly changed the past.

It's not a shock Bryan Singer would pick and chooce what from Origins to honor.He ignored wolverine being in vietnam but honored wolverine having bone claws,the girl called him jimmy like in origins and they lifted portions of the origins Weapon x stuff to add to X2 weapon X scenes.

 

[x-er]

I understood Apoc would tie into Jackman's Wolverine III though, and that will probably be a "future" film.

The way I see it, currently X Men is in a gray area between reboot and continued franchise. New timeline with new stories but somehow still tied to the original cast, directors, writers, producers, etc.

 

[psylockolussus]

What you don't get is that when X-Men: Apocalypse hits theaters, that movie will have no connection to the X-trilogy nor the Wolverine films whatsoever. Even if the previous films led up to DOFP, it doesn't mean that they'll be connected to future films regardless if Wolverine and Xavier remembers the original timeline. Everything that happens in X-men: Apocalypse from here-on-in will be as if the previous films (besides First Class and 1973 DOFP) never happened so yes, it is exactly like the reboot situation with the Spider-Man films and the Batman films.

Yet the movie before Apocalypse had connection to the previous films. So No. Its not exactly the reboot situation with Spider-Man/Batman/Superman/FantasticFour. The story of Raimi's Spidey films didn't lead to Amazing Spider-Man. The story of the first six films led to DOFP and DOFP will lead to Apocalypse and possibly Deadpool. Its simple as that.

 

[X-Maniac]

This poster called dax just doesn't get it.

It's not a reboot - and as obvious evidence for that, some of the same actors are in it. Hugh Jackman is Wolverine in all the timelines. And he will probably be continuing in the role in X-Men: Apocalypse.

That's because all the timelines are tied together.

The original timeline (Origins, First Class, X1, X2, X3, The Wolverine and the future section of DoFP) happened in order for Wolverine to go back in time. He's created a new timeline that branches off in 1973 and leads through some so-far-undocumented decades to the new future we saw at the end of the movie.

It's NOT the same as what happened with Batman and Spider-Man. Batman Begins had no connection with the 90s Batman movies directed by Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher - it was a complete restart. Amazing Spider-Man has no connection to the Sam Raimi movies.

 

[dax]

Yet the movie before Apocalypse had connection to the previous films. So No. Its not exactly the reboot situation with Spider-Man/Batman/Superman/FantasticFour. The story of Raimi's Spidey films didn't lead to Amazing Spider-Man. The story of the first six films led to DOFP and DOFP will lead to Apocalypse and possibly Deadpool. Its simple as that.

But when the moment Mystique drops her gun and spares Bolivar Trask's life, DOFP, from that point on, is now only tied to First Class. The only moments from the other five films that are still connected to DOFP are the X1 opening scene( since it's recreated for First Class), the first 6 minutes of Origins: Wolverine (until Vietnam), and the WW2 flashback in the Wolverine. Other than that, those films are NOT connected to DOFP anymore because both Bryan Singer and the producers have all said to forget about those films for they're no longer part of the cinematic continuity after 1973. The DOFP ending and the story of Apocalypse don't lead up to the X-men trilogy nor the Wolverine films (after '73) because the events of those films do not exist anymore so again, IT IS EXACTLY LIKE THE REBOOT SITUATION WITH SPIDER-MAN/BATMAN/SUPERMAN/FANTASTIC FOUR.

This poster called dax just doesn't get it.

It's not a reboot - and as obvious evidence for that, some of the same actors are in it. Hugh Jackman is Wolverine in all the timelines. And he will probably be continuing in the role in X-Men: Apocalypse.

That's because all the timelines are tied together.

The original timeline (Origins, First Class, X1, X2, X3, The Wolverine, and the future section of DOFP) happened in order for Wolverine to go back in time. He's created a new timeline that branches off in 1973 and leads through some so-far undocumented decades to the new future we saw at the end of the movie.

It's not the same as what happened with Batman and Spider-Man. Batman Begins has no connection with the 90s Batman movies directed by Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher - it was a complete restart. Amazing Spider-Man has no connection to the Sam Raimi movies.

It is you who doesn't get it.

Just because the original X-men cast members were in DOFP, it does NOT mean that future X-men films will be tied to the previous films (except for First Class and 1973 DOFP). Plus, Hugh Jackman doesn't count because Wolverine is practically immortal which means that Hugh doesn't have to share the role with another actor unlike Patrick Stewart/James McAvoy and Ian McCellan/Michael Fassbender. By erasing 5 X-men movies out of existence, Bryan Singer has gauranteed that neither X-men: Apocalypse or any future film are required to connect to those 5 films so yes, IT IS a reboot.

 

[psylockolussus]

But when the moment Mystique drops her gun and spares Bolivar Trask's life, DOFP, from that point on, is now only tied to First Class. The only moments from the other five films that are still connected to DOFP are the X1 opening scene( since it's recreated for First Class), the first 6 minutes of Origins: Wolverine (until Vietnam), and the WW2 flashback in the Wolverine. Other than that, those films are NOT connected to DOFP anymore because both Bryan Singer and the producers have all said to forget about those films for they're no longer part of the cinematic continuity after 1973. The DOFP ending and the story of Apocalypse don't lead up to the X-men trilogy nor the Wolverine films (after '73) because the events of those films do not exist anymore so again, IT IS EXACTLY LIKE THE REBOOT SITUATION WITH SPIDER-MAN/BATMAN/SUPERMAN/FANTASTIC FOUR.

It doesn't change the fact that the first 6 movies led to that moment.

It is not the same as the reboot situation with the other superhero franchises.

You can watch The Amazing Spider-Man/The Amazing Spider-Man 2 without seeing the original Spider-Man trilogy and get the story, with X-Men: Days of Future Past, you will have to watch the first 6 films to get the whole picture and to know those flashbacks that were shown in the film. So its not the same. Timeline A led to Timeline B and we are now in Timeline B.

 

[dax]

It doesn't change the fact that the first 6 movies led to that moment.

It is not the same as the reboot situation with the other superhero franchises.

You can watch The Amazing Spider-Man/The Amazing Spider-Man 2 without seeing the original Spider-Man trilogy and get the story, with X-Men: Days of Future Past, you will have to watch the first 6 films to get the whole picture and to know those flashbacks that were shown in the film. So its not the same. Timeline A led to Timeline B and we are now in Timeline B.

We can all watch the first 6 movies until we're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is when we get to X-men: Apocalypse, it will only connect to First Class, 1973 DOFP and the new 2023 ending. Regardless of the time-traveling aspect of DOFP, that movie has severed all ties with the remaining 5 movies by changing the timeline which automatically makes it a reboot.

 

[psylockolussus]

Sigh.

 

[Duran Man]

I love how this has been going for nearly 4 weeks, beginning with a reply to a 4 month old comment.

Spoiler

Oh, and it's not a reboot.

 

[marvelrobbins]

we can argue tll we are blue in the face but that won't change fact
Apocalypse continues on from first class and 1973 parts of Days of future past
and is prequel to 2023 ending of DOFP

fans can watch whatever order of films they want In between First class and DOFP but it's made clear In film if wolverine is sucessful everything from 1973 to 2023 will never happen.

Wolverine's back story will be totally different from Origins

Apocalypse does not lead into events of trilogy+The Wolverine.

If we ever revisit the future wolverine wakes up in at end of DOFP then we can say events of trilogy,and wolverine solo films still have relvence to future films
but that's a question mark.

 

[Havok83]

We can all watch the first 6 movies until we're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is when we get to X-men: Apocalypse, it will only connect to First Class, 1973 DOFP and the new 2023 ending. Regardless of the time-traveling aspect of DOFP, that movie has severed all ties with the remaining 5 movies by changing the timeline which automatically makes it a reboot.

The fact is no one knows exactly how things will play out. One theme which was a thread that played out in DoFP is that you cant completely change the future as things will still happen, but how it happens, may alter. From the 2023 ending we know that the school, X-men and some of the relationships will still form/be the same. Who's to say that the story of how Xavier recruits Scott, Jean, and Storm isnt how it was always meant to happen anyway? The main thing that DoFP did was erase the deaths of Scott and Jean. For all we know what will play out onscreen may fit into the saga without any major contradictions

 

[GuestStar2004]

For all we know what will play out onscreen may fit into the saga without any major contradictions

only if you don't think to much about how all the pieces fit together from film to film

and we can only assume wolverine is getting a new origin otherwise the mystique fishing him out the water thing was just a pointless empty tease

 

[dax]

I love how this has been going for nearly 4 weeks, beginning with a reply to a 4 month old comment.

Spoiler

Oh, and it's not a reboot.

Spoiler

Yes, it is!

The main thing that DoFP did was erase the deaths of Scott and Jean.

It did more than that. It also erased:

-Logan's first meeting with William Stryker.
-Logan's involvement with Team X.
-The weapon x experiment.
-All the deaths in Origins.
- Wolverine's amnesia.
- The deaths of Senator Kelly and Henry Gyrich.
- Magneto's mutation machine.
- William Stryker brainwashing Nightcrawler, Professor X, and Cyclops (which led to the dam collapsing and Jean's heroic suicide).
- Jean's transformation into the Phoenix.
and
-The battle of Alcatraz.

I tend to think that the events of The Wolverine still happened, just not the part where he's living in exile out of guilt for killing Jean or being haunted by her ghost since those parts are now erased.

 

[jaymes_e06]

How do you know it erased any of that?

 

[dax]

How do you know it erased any of that?

The fact that everyone that died in DOFP and in previous films (Scott and Jean) are brought back to life, nobody hates mutants anymore after the whole world witness Mystique save President Nixon, and that Mystique is posing as Stryker which means Wolverine never meets the real Stryker.

 

[psylockolussus]

How do you know nobody hates mutants anymore?are you from the future. Its not a reboot, if you consider Dofp as the 1st or 2nd film of the series, youllstill get a glimpse of the films that were wiped out so theres still a connection.

 

[jaymes_e06]

The fact that everyone that died in DOFP and in previous films (Scott and Jean) are brought back to life, nobody hates mutants anymore after the whole world witness Mystique save President Nixon, and that Mystique is posing as Stryker which means Wolverine never meets the real Stryker.

Your strawman theories aren't very well thought out. You have no idea if most of those things couldn't still happen because what happens doesn't preclude it.

 

[Rike]

Other than that, those films are NOT connected to DOFP anymore because both Bryan Singer and the producers have all said to forget about those films for they're no longer part of the cinematic continuity after 1973. The DOFP ending and the story of Apocalypse don't lead up to the X-men trilogy nor the Wolverine films (after '73) because the events of those films do not exist anymore so again, IT IS EXACTLY LIKE THE REBOOT SITUATION WITH SPIDER-MAN/BATMAN/SUPERMAN/FANTASTIC FOUR.

By erasing 5 X-men movies out of existence, Bryan Singer has gauranteed that neither X-men: Apocalypse or any future film are required to connect to those 5 films so yes, IT IS a reboot.

“The end of Days of Future Past in 1973 does change the timeline of the established film universe. But one of the things we posit in the film is the immutability of time. So what you see at the end is a future that has been shifted but not completely transformed. Our characters are back in the mansion, as we saw them in X1-3, with some obvious changes (like certain characters being alive). So the answer is yes and no. Yes it changes the timeline. No it doesn’t completely erase everything…”

“Hopefully the X movies to come will help define that for audiences. Our next film, X-Men: Apocalypse, will fill in more of the timeline between Days of Future Past and X1.”

"One of the things we talk about in Days of Future Past is that you can change the future, it’s like a stream that moves in one direction — you can create a new ripple in it, but you certainly don’t change the current. What we did in Days of Future Past changed some things, but like you see of the film, they end up back in the mansion in the future, so most of the current continued in the same direction, so most of the things you see in [the earlier films] still happened but with slight adjustments."

Links:
http://collider.com/x-men-days-of-future-past-ending-explained/
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/simon-kinberg-explains-time-traveling-734716

You sure you want to argue with the man who wrote the film? LOL.

 

[xrs13]

Perspective... Thank you Rike for having some haha

 

[dax]

How do you know nobody hates mutants anymore?are you from the future. Its not a reboot, if you consider Dofp as the 1st or 2nd film of the series, youllstill get a glimpse of the films that were wiped out so theres still a connection.

How do you know that the humans still hate mutants? If they did, then the sentinel program would still exist which will completely undermine the ending of DOFP. The future would still be the Terminator-esque future that we see at the beginning of the movie and none of the future X-men would've survived. Yes, the previous films are connected to DOFP at the beginning but when the timeline is changed at the end, that connection is severed so for the last time, it IS a reboot because it erases the events of all the X-men films except First Class.

It's a reboot without being an actual reboot.

Your strawman theories aren't well thought out. You have no idea if most of those things couldn't still happen because what happens doesn't preclude it.

You have no idea, either. Wasn't it Lauren Shuler-Donner who said, "Forget about X3. Forget about Origins too"? If we do that knowing what happens in DOFP, then that means that the events of those movies never happened which is why Cyclops and Jean are alive and why Wolverine isn't serving in the Vietnam war and meeting Stryker (the real one).

"The end of Days of Future Past in 1973 does change the timeline of the established film universe. But one of the things we posit in the film is the immutability of time. So what you see at the end is a future that is shifted but not completely transformed. Our characters are back in the mansion, as we saw them in X1-3, with some obvious changes (like certain characters being alive). So the answer is yes and no. Yes, it changes the timeline. No it doesn't completely erase everything..."

"Hopefully the X movies to come will help define that for audiences. Our next film, X-men: Apocalypse, will fill in more of the timeline between Days of Future Past and X1."

One of the things we talk about in Days of Future Past is that you can change the future, it's like a stream that moves in one direction -you can create a new ripple in it, but you certainly don't change the current. What we did in Days of Future Past changed some things, but like you see of the film, they end up back in the mansion in the future, so most of the current continued in the same direction, so most of the things you see in [the earlier films] still happened but with slight adjustments."

Links:
http://collider.com/x-men-days-of-future-past-explained/
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/simon-kinberg-explains-time-traveling-734716

You sure you want to argue with the man who wrote the film? LOL.

Didn't he also say this:

"We certainly re-write some of the history of [X-men: The Last Stand] and [X-men Origins: Wolverine].

and this:

"The notion was always that at the end of the movie we return to the mansion and the school and the X-men we met in X1, but with some modification, because history has been changed."

Obviously, Simon Kinberg doesn't know what he's talking about if he thinks that Mystique dropping her gun didn't erase the entire X-men movie history. How can history be changed if nothing is erased? Certain events have to be erased in order to explain why Jean Grey is alive but hasn't become the Phoenix since it'll effect the events of X3, The Wolverine, and 2023 DOFP. Something must've happened to the real William Stryker to explain why Mystique is pretending to be him because it could effect the events of Origins and X2. Lastly, the world knows about mutants much earlier than what transpired in X1 which means the events of that movie have been changed.

You don't make a movie that erases the events of 5 previous films and say it's not a reboot because how do you identify future films when they won't have anything to do with the previous films? This will be the last time I explain this because we're never going to agree on this issue.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Apocalypse will help clarify this but Simon Kinberg talks on both sides of his mouth on the issue.

 

[Havok83]

Spoiler

Yes, it is!

It did more than that. It also erased:

-Logan's first meeting with William Stryker.
-Logan's involvement with Team X.
-The weapon x experiment.
-All the deaths in Origins.
- Wolverine's amnesia.
- The deaths of Senator Kelly and Henry Gyrich.
- Magneto's mutation machine.
- William Stryker brainwashing Nightcrawler, Professor X, and Cyclops (which led to the dam collapsing and Jean's heroic suicide).
- Jean's transformation into the Phoenix.
and
-The battle of Alcatraz.

I tend to think that the events of The Wolverine still happened, just not the part where he's living in exile out of guilt for killing Jean or being haunted by her ghost since those parts are now erased.

You have no idea that none of that stuff happens. Unless there is some type of resurrections, we DO know however that Scott and Jean do not die. All that other stuff seems very plausible as stuff that may naturally play out anyway

 

[marvelrobbins]

let's be clear here.Lauren Shueller Donnor pretty much said they wanted fans to forget about Last Stand and origins.

Bryan Singer said on commantary of deleted scenes from what i heard since i don't have a blu-ray player and can't get blu-ray or HQ Itunes films to play on my computer that they changed the ending with wolverine in 1973 because they wanted to be able to change wolverine's back story.Thus In Apocalypse it;s very possable Apocalypse is now responable for the adamanturm thus weapon X Is erased.That causes major rewriting of Events of X-Men and X2.Yeah it's still possable the plot with machine and Stryker wanting to use xavier as part of his plan to kill all mutants.

Kinberg also said jean at end of DOFP never became dark Phoenix so only the cure plotline from Lats Stand could have happened

If Nightcrawler IS in Apocalypse and joins X-Men then him being brainwashed to attack white house is likely erased as well.