Season 6, Episode 5 "The Door" Discussion Thread

[Iceman]

The way the NK gripped Bran which then allowed his forces to breach the magical security of the 3ER's treecave.

Or right. Thanks!

 

[Iceman]

Hahaha yeah, Bran really f***ed up a LOT in this episode. Although to be fair, I think the Three-Eyed Raven intended for him to "create" Hodor. It seems odd that, after knowing that Bran had messed up and the NK could now walk right through the Raven's front door, he would suddenly insist that Bran go warging with him one last time to old Winterfell. Why exactly did they go there, especially when they knew the NK was coming? They didn't expect him to be there that quickly, but they had to know he'd be there soon.

The only reason I can think of is, the Raven had to make sure Bran created Hodor. If he didn't, then that could f*** up the entire timeline and Bran might have never made it to the Raven, thus undoing everything.

Yes, has to be something to want to go warging at such an inconvenient time! I don't really want the timeline to be too complicated but I think we'll have a much better understanding of it by the end of this season.

 

[Sterling Archer]

The only reason I can think of is, the Raven had to make sure Bran created Hodor. If he didn't, then that could f*** up the entire timeline and Bran might have never made it to the Raven, thus undoing everything.

This is precisely the reason.

 

[Marvolo]

I was listening to a podcast the other night and one of the hosts said Bran's **** up was like a teen that steals his parents car and backs straight out of the driveway into a lightpole.

 

[Legion]

Hahaha yeah, Bran really f***ed up a LOT in this episode. Although to be fair, I think the Three-Eyed Raven intended for him to "create" Hodor. It seems odd that, after knowing that Bran had messed up and the NK could now walk right through the Raven's front door, he would suddenly insist that Bran go warging with him one last time to old Winterfell. Why exactly did they go there, especially when they knew the NK was coming? They didn't expect him to be there that quickly, but they had to know he'd be there soon.

The only reason I can think of is, the Raven had to make sure Bran created Hodor. If he didn't, then that could f*** up the entire timeline and Bran might have never made it to the Raven, thus undoing everything.

The way I saw it was the Raven was uploading knowledge into Bran and Winterfell was just the "loading screen" while the upload was in progress.

 

[Iceman]

The way I saw it was the Raven was uploading knowledge into Bran and Winterfell was just the "loading screen" while the upload was in progress.

I like this description. t:

 

[Brother Jack]

I think the Three Eyed Raven knew exactly what would happen, including his own role in it. He didn't seem particularly upset or surprised when Bran meddled with the Night's King and of all the places he could've taken him he chose Winterfell at the exact moment that young Wyllis would be there. Wheen Meera tells Bran to warg into Hodor, the Raven tells him to listen to her. So he's just as responsible, at least as responsible as one can be when their actions are already determined. It's hard to gauge the morality of these choices when they weren't really choices at all. The difference is that the Raven already knew this and Bran did not. Think of the Raven like Dr. Manhattan; he knows he has no free will, that everything he and Bran do is following a set path.

This is what makes this scene so especially tragic. With the other big deaths and gut punches, there was at least the understanding that however horrible these things were, they were being perpetrated by people who had a choice in the matter. They were given the right and wrong things to do and they picked the latter, which is a whole other tragedy its own right. But Hodor never had a choice. He had his whole life ruined by a kid who he would eventually die to protect, the very death that would loop back around as the catalyst for his condition. And that kid had to watch knowing that he did it.

 

[Reek]

I don't think the 3ER knew WHEN Bran was going to be touched, but knew it would happen... He didn't know what vision Bran was having at the time, but when he came back the 3ER knew it was the time he was marked (touched) since bran said night king and freaked out... So he can (well could now) see all sorts of things, but can't foresee what happens in Brans visions when he's not having them with him.

I hope thats making sense... like he knew at any moment Bran could say the NK touched him, but he never knew at which point it would be because though the 3ER has 'seen everything' he can't have seen someone elses visions.

at least thats how i interpreted it

 

[Raiden]

I think the revelations were good. Nothing about the Whitewalkers origin was really wrong to me although it wasn't what I was expecting either, we also don't know how they ultimately end up becoming the threat they are now.

And I could not agree more on the complete waste of the direwolves in this series. All of them have been rather brutally killed without much of an effort or in some cases, the worst thought out ways possible. Bran's escape did not require the sacrifice of the wolf, or that Child and even Hodor might have been able to survive had that explosive been used a little more thoughtfully to bring down part of the tunnel and keep the walkers at bay.

But the story had to go this way for whatever reason and my only real nitpick is how many characters just seem to die in dumb circumstances. Not everyone needs to go down fighting a 100 men/beasts/monsters/whatever but so many of them just fling themselves into completely unwinnable circumstances and don't win, making it all the more foolish.

I feel that same way. What was the reason each dire wolf pup was given to each Stark child, anyway? It seems like all of their deaths were ultimately meaningless. I thought they'd be instrumental for the great war to come.

RIP Summer.

 

[Drizzle]

I was listening to a podcast the other night and one of the hosts said Bran's **** up was like a teen that steals his parents car and backs straight out of the driveway into a lightpole.

More like backing into and running over the family dog and his older brother to boot.

 

[Marvolo]

More like backing into and running over the family dog and his older brother to boot.

And he ran over grandpa...and the neighborhood children.

 

[Raiden]

I was listening to a podcast the other night and one of the hosts said Bran's **** up was like a teen that steals his parents car and backs straight out of the driveway into a lightpole.

I know everyone joked about Bran screwing up, but he was locked in a set path and things had to happen the way it did. There was nothing Bran could have done to avoid any of the events in this episode from becoming reality. Hodor's death is extremely sad, and I hope like Summer it will have a greater significance in the future, if Bran does become the new 3ER and help Westeros fight against the While Walkers.

Btw, am I the only person who had wished Sasha ordered Littlefinger to kill himself in that scene? After Ramsey he's the guy I hope will suffer a grisly death.

 

[Iceman]

Littlefinger is much more interesting to me than Ramsay. I want to see more of him. Not sure how I would want him to die, maybe something to do with Varys.

 

[craigdbfan]

So what was the overall reception to this episode? Mainly positive or negative?

It was such an emotional and revelatory roller coaster ride that I personally found it to be pretty incredible. It had an air of "anime only" to it but only of the highest caliber akin to once again Fullmetal Alchemist. Very similar in ways.

 

[Reek]

general audience loved it.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I thought it was great. The scenes with Hodor and even Dany and Jorah were very emotional. And the Night King's attack on the Raven's hideout was intense as bad place. I also really liked everything with Sansa. It's funny seeing how far she's come from the spoiled little brat she was in the early episodes.

 

[craigdbfan]

Good to see it seems primarily positive. To those of you who have read the books, did you think the "anime only" revelations were in line with what Martin would do?

In more simpler terms did it feel like a natural progression or was it a bit jarring? To me there was definitely a hint of outside HBO involvement (not in a bad way) creatively but I still felt that Martin "air" to it if you will. I will say that HBO seems more intent on saving the "main" cast all the way up until the end, something I'm not sure George will do in the books.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Did anyone post their opinion on why Sansa lied to Jon about where she got her intel about the Blackfish holding Riverrun?

Here's Sophie's thoughts:

"She doesn’t tell Jon because — it’s difficult because she doesn’t have that Stark way about her anymore. She’s been broken down; she no longer feels like she can be completely honest with anyone, even her own family. Also she doesn’t want to tell Jon, I think, because she wants all the information and all the power in her court when it comes to Littlefinger. Because [with] Littlefinger she can kind of do whatever she wants with him now. He owes her big time and she wants the ball in her court."

from: 'Game of Thrones': Sophie Turner talks facing Littlefinger and putting the ball in Sansa's court

But are these the writers' motives...?

 

[Pink Ranger]

My feeling is that A) Sansa knows that they still need Baelish, temporarily at least, if they have a prayer of retaking Winterfell, B) no way Jon would act on any assistance Baelish would give them, and C) if Jon knows that Sansa knows where Baelish is, he might drop everything and ride out and dispense some brotherly justice and abandon the bigger picture.

So far, it seems to be established that Sansa is the one with political intelligence out of the two, and Jon is too honorable by half and maybe has some of the naivete of his putative father.

 

[craigdbfan]

That's a pretty accurate assessment there to be honest. Hopefully Jon learned a bit after being knifed to death.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Jon knew (or knows) absolutely nothing about Littlefinger and his treachery unless Sansa completely filled him in on that offscreen. Are we to assume that? And even Sansa is unaware that Littlefinger betrayed Ned and put a knife to his throat -she wasn't present for any of that otherwise she would have never trusted him to begin with.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

 

[Pink Ranger]

Jon knew (or knows) absolutely nothing about Littlefinger and his treachery unless Sansa completely filled him in on that offscreen. Are we to assume that? And even Sansa is unaware that Littlefinger betrayed Ned and put a knife to his throat -she wasn't present for any of that otherwise she would have never trusted him to begin with.

Regardless, it would be tough for Sansa to explain to Jon why suddenly Petr Baelish is running the Vale and knows so much about their allies without revealing some or all of his role in the atrocities she has experienced. And surely Jon is aware she is married to Ramsay Bolton, that's a pretty big thing not to know, and if he knows she is married, he's gotta know who arranged that. If Jon knows even a little of what Baelish has done, and the man is clearly within riding distance of Castle Black, Jon would drop everything important and pursue him and take his head.

Sansa wants to see Baelish dead too, but sees the "big picture" and knows she needs both Jon and Baelish working on the same side and on task if she wants to reclaim Winterfell.

 

[Rowsdower!]

But then why did Sansa turn down Littlefinger's offer of using the army of the Vale?

 

[Pink Ranger]

I'm not a writer on the show, just speculating, but while Sansa feels she needs Baelish working on their mutual best interests, bringing in the knights of the Vale would just inevitably bring Jon and Baelish into contact, which she doesn't want. Also it means they would be sharing information directly both ways.