Season 6, Episode 8 "No One" Discussion Thread

[Kane52630]

Have to say that I enjoyed the dialogue reversal between Thoros and The Hound.

Season 3: Thoros, the **** you doing here?

Season 6: Clegane, the **** you doing here?

Same here

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Unfortunately Lady crane was not a faceless man and the Waif was not competing with Arya and failed...it was just POOR POOR writing.

 

[Matt]

I am going to speak up in defense of the Arya plot.

Yes, it was clumsy. But I don't think it was as egregious as folks are making it to be.

Arya laid a trap for the Waif. She knew they were coming and she laid a trap. That is why Needle was hidden away in that dark little hut of hers. Her plan was always to lure the Waif into the dark room, cut the lights, fight blind (as she was taught to do, unlike the Waif) and kill the Waif using the advantage of the imposed blindness to even the odds. It is a smart plan. The same people *****ing about it would ***** if Arya suddenly beat the Waif despite no indication that she has the skill level to do so.

The flaw in the plan comes from the Waif stabbing Arya. People have complained that Arya was behaving too carelessly, etc. Is it not possible that this was part of Arya's plan? She wanted the Waif to see her so she could lure her into the room to kill her. That is why she was gallivanting about, flaunting her money, etc. She was trying to lure the Waif into a trap.

Arya's key mistake is thinking that the Faceless Men would not attack her in public. It isn't a bad assumption to make. Think of Arya's experiences with the Faceless men so far. Everything had been cloaked in secrecy. When Jaquen killed Arya's targets at Harrenhal, he, by and large, made it appear to be an accident and in lieu of that used poison. It was subtle and stealthy. Similarly, when Jaquen assigned Arya to kill the thin man, he instructed her to poison him. When he ordered her to kill Lady Crane, he advised her to poison her wine. All of these tactics are subtle, stealthy and, in a medieval setting, could be attributed to natural causes or accidents. The only exception to these tactics is when he helped her escape Harrenhal, and that was done under coercion and Jaquen was not happy about it. Neither Arya nor the viewer had any reason to believe that the Faceless Men would attack a little girl in broad daylight and stab her. Arya assumed they would not go at her in such a manner. It was a mistake that caused her to be unguarded when the Waif attacked her, but it was one that her experiences with the Faceless Men led to her making. It isn't as inconsistent with logical thought as some may think. Arya simply assumed the Waif would wait until she was alone (in the hut) and then kill her.

So that leads us to Arya's wounds. She was stabbed twice, if memory serves. She seemed to be in pretty bad shape. But at least a day or two passed from being stabbed to her escape from the Waif. Further, one can assume that her behavior in Lady Crane's apartment, shortly before fleeing, was at least, in part, for the Waif's benefit. Crane's prolonged conversations with Arya about her being good at acting are hints to this. This was clumsily telegraphed to the audience, but it certainly sets the table.

Arya's entire flight from the Waif was a continuation of her earlier plan to lure the Waif into the hut and kill her. That is why Arya was leaving a trail for the Waif to follow. Further, their confrontation in the hut supports the notion that Arya was exaggerating her wounds/acting. She goes from whimpering on the ground, gasping for air, to calm, confident, and collected right before she slices the candle in half.

In essence, although poorly telegraphed, the wounds were never as debilitating as the Waif and the audience were led to believe. This was an intentional ploy on Arya's part, much like when Dany led the slave traders (and the audience) to believe she could not understand their insults that were spoken in Valyrian.

Arya's plan did not work perfectly. But it is all part of a logical progression and not as irrational as some are acting. This is not to defend the show. The writers and directors of the past few episodes failed as story tellers by not making all of this a bit more clear. They planted seeds but failed to cultivate the crops. Never the less, the groundwork is there.

 

[Chesterfield]

Can Tommen just die already! His weak-ass makes my blood boil. The guy's got no backbone at all; makes me long for the days of Joffrey.

 

[Filmfan93]

Good episode.

Really like the chemistry between Jaime and Brienne. Didn't like Blackfish dying off-screen. Looks like the Hound is going to kick some Night Walkers' ass.

Was left a bit confused with Arya's story. So is she now a No One or Arya? And what was Jaqen's plan all along? To train her to become No One, or to train her expecting she will still stay Arya and return to Westeros? The subtle smile implies he succeeded in whatever his plan was, though.

Tommen is getting annoying. I really hope they kill him off soon.

Next week is going to be bonkers. Battle of the Bastards!

 

[Golgo-13]

The ep was meh to me. I was a little by how quickly Arya healed from the stabbing.

And i hope Dragon was flying out to set those slave master ships ablaze and not leaving...

 

[Ezio Auditore]

I am going to speak up in defense of the Arya plot.

Yes, it was clumsy. But I don't think it was as egregious as folks are making it to be.

Arya laid a trap for the Waif. She knew they were coming and she laid a trap. That is why Needle was hidden away in that dark little hut of hers. Her plan was always to lure the Waif into the dark room, cut the lights, fight blind (as she was taught to do, unlike the Waif) and kill the Waif using the advantage of the imposed blindness to even the odds. It is a smart plan. The same people *****ing about it would ***** if Arya suddenly beat the Waif despite no indication that she has the skill level to do so.

The flaw in the plan comes from the Waif stabbing Arya. People have complained that Arya was behaving too carelessly, etc. Is it not possible that this was part of Arya's plan? She wanted the Waif to see her so she could lure her into the room to kill her. That is why she was gallivanting about, flaunting her money, etc. She was trying to lure the Waif into a trap.

Arya's key mistake is thinking that the Faceless Men would not attack her in public. It isn't a bad assumption to make. Think of Arya's experiences with the Faceless men so far. Everything had been cloaked in secrecy. When Jaquen killed Arya's targets at Harrenhal, he, by and large, made it appear to be an accident and in lieu of that used poison. It was subtle and stealthy. Similarly, when Jaquen assigned Arya to kill the thin man, he instructed her to poison him. When he ordered her to kill Lady Crane, he advised her to poison her wine. All of these tactics are subtle, stealthy and, in a medieval setting, could be attributed to natural causes or accidents. The only exception to these tactics is when he helped her escape Harrenhal, and that was done under coercion and Jaquen was not happy about it. Neither Arya nor the viewer had any reason to believe that the Faceless Men would attack a little girl in broad daylight and stab her. Arya assumed they would not go at her in such a manner. It was a mistake that caused her to be unguarded when the Waif attacked her, but it was one that her experiences with the Faceless Men led to her making. It isn't as inconsistent with logical thought as some may think. Arya simply assumed the Waif would wait until she was alone (in the hut) and then kill her.

So that leads us to Arya's wounds. She was stabbed twice, if memory serves. She seemed to be in pretty bad shape. But at least a day or two passed from being stabbed to her escape from the Waif. Further, one can assume that her behavior in Lady Crane's apartment, shortly before fleeing, was at least, in part, for the Waif's benefit. Crane's prolonged conversations with Arya about her being good at acting are hints to this. This was clumsily telegraphed to the audience, but it certainly sets the table.

Arya's entire flight from the Waif was a continuation of her earlier plan to lure the Waif into the hut and kill her. That is why Arya was leaving a trail for the Waif to follow. Further, their confrontation in the hut supports the notion that Arya was exaggerating her wounds/acting. She goes from whimpering on the ground, gasping for air, to calm, confident, and collected right before she slices the candle in half.

In essence, although poorly telegraphed, the wounds were never as debilitating as the Waif and the audience were led to believe. This was an intentional ploy on Arya's part, much like when Dany led the slave traders (and the audience) to believe she could not understand their insults that were spoken in Valyrian.

Arya's plan did not work perfectly. But it is all part of a logical progression and not as irrational as some are acting. This is not to defend the show. The writers and directors of the past few episodes failed as story tellers by not making all of this a bit more clear. They planted seeds but failed to cultivate the crops. Never the less, the groundwork is there.

I like this explanation. Specially last paragraph

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Was left a bit confused with Arya's story. So is she now a No One or Arya? And what was Jaqen's plan all along? To train her to become No One, or to train her expecting she will still stay Arya and return to Westeros? The subtle smile implies he succeeded in whatever his plan was, though.

The qualifications to be "no one" are a bit vague and mysterious. Maybe she's both Arya (or thinks she is) and essentially "no one" -an instrument of death- at the same time. Jaqen felt she learned the particular lessons to reach this level of being.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Maybe it's a variation of the Superman/Batman argument. Is Arya really Arya + some faceless training, or is she No One + Arya's face, because it suits someone's overarching purpose.

 

[BestGirl]

I am going to speak up in defense of the Arya plot.

Yes, it was clumsy. But I don't think it was as egregious as folks are making it to be.

Arya laid a trap for the Waif. She knew they were coming and she laid a trap. That is why Needle was hidden away in that dark little hut of hers. Her plan was always to lure the Waif into the dark room, cut the lights, fight blind (as she was taught to do, unlike the Waif) and kill the Waif using the advantage of the imposed blindness to even the odds. It is a smart plan. The same people *****ing about it would ***** if Arya suddenly beat the Waif despite no indication that she has the skill level to do so.

The flaw in the plan comes from the Waif stabbing Arya. People have complained that Arya was behaving too carelessly, etc. Is it not possible that this was part of Arya's plan? She wanted the Waif to see her so she could lure her into the room to kill her. That is why she was gallivanting about, flaunting her money, etc. She was trying to lure the Waif into a trap.

Arya's key mistake is thinking that the Faceless Men would not attack her in public. It isn't a bad assumption to make. Think of Arya's experiences with the Faceless men so far. Everything had been cloaked in secrecy. When Jaquen killed Arya's targets at Harrenhal, he, by and large, made it appear to be an accident and in lieu of that used poison. It was subtle and stealthy. Similarly, when Jaquen assigned Arya to kill the thin man, he instructed her to poison him. When he ordered her to kill Lady Crane, he advised her to poison her wine. All of these tactics are subtle, stealthy and, in a medieval setting, could be attributed to natural causes or accidents. The only exception to these tactics is when he helped her escape Harrenhal, and that was done under coercion and Jaquen was not happy about it. Neither Arya nor the viewer had any reason to believe that the Faceless Men would attack a little girl in broad daylight and stab her. Arya assumed they would not go at her in such a manner. It was a mistake that caused her to be unguarded when the Waif attacked her, but it was one that her experiences with the Faceless Men led to her making. It isn't as inconsistent with logical thought as some may think. Arya simply assumed the Waif would wait until she was alone (in the hut) and then kill her.

So that leads us to Arya's wounds. She was stabbed twice, if memory serves. She seemed to be in pretty bad shape. But at least a day or two passed from being stabbed to her escape from the Waif. Further, one can assume that her behavior in Lady Crane's apartment, shortly before fleeing, was at least, in part, for the Waif's benefit. Crane's prolonged conversations with Arya about her being good at acting are hints to this. This was clumsily telegraphed to the audience, but it certainly sets the table.

Arya's entire flight from the Waif was a continuation of her earlier plan to lure the Waif into the hut and kill her. That is why Arya was leaving a trail for the Waif to follow. Further, their confrontation in the hut supports the notion that Arya was exaggerating her wounds/acting. She goes from whimpering on the ground, gasping for air, to calm, confident, and collected right before she slices the candle in half.

In essence, although poorly telegraphed, the wounds were never as debilitating as the Waif and the audience were led to believe. This was an intentional ploy on Arya's part, much like when Dany led the slave traders (and the audience) to believe she could not understand their insults that were spoken in Valyrian.

Arya's plan did not work perfectly. But it is all part of a logical progression and not as irrational as some are acting. This is not to defend the show. The writers and directors of the past few episodes failed as story tellers by not making all of this a bit more clear. They planted seeds but failed to cultivate the crops. Never the less, the groundwork is there.

I like your explanation that Arya didn't anticipate being attacked in a crowd.

The blood thing is still dumb though it could be that the director and special effects department went overboard and she wasn't supposed to bleed that much in the script. It's probably a vain hope, but it would be nice if Arya revealed later that she had been wearing padding of some kind under her shirt and the wounds she received were bloody but ultimately superficial.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

The same people *****ing about it would ***** if Arya suddenly beat the Waif despite no indication that she has the skill level to do so.
People have complained that Arya was behaving too carelessly, etc.

When Jaquen killed Arya's targets at Harrenhal, he, by and large, made it appear to be an accident and in lieu of that used poison. It was subtle and stealthy. The only exception to these tactics is when he helped her escape Harrenhal, and that was done under coercion and Jaquen was not happy about it. It isn't as inconsistent with logical thought as some may think.

She was stabbed twice, if memory serves. She seemed to be in pretty bad shape. But at least a day or two passed from being stabbed to her escape from the Waif.

But it is all part of a logical progression and not as irrational as some are acting. This is not to defend the show. The writers and directors of the past few episodes failed as story tellers by not making all of this a bit more clear. They planted seeds but failed to cultivate the crops. Never the less, the groundwork is there.

I don't think that your explanations are very rational nor logical, but I don't have much left to say which I haven't already in this thread, and the previous episode's. You should post this in the Arya threads over at Westeros -I'm sure you'd get some takers.

If fans have to do incredible mental gymnastics like this to explain away unrealistic issues then the writers are not doing their jobs very well and even the "groundwork" is situationally ill-conceived except in the most basic sense: Arya is with the Faceless Men in Braavos. A veritable host of viewers are not buying this and were taken out of the show by the stupidity and unrealism that we just witnessed. That damage is not going to be repaired by your posts.

Some corrections on the show's events:

1. Jaqen killed the Tickler at Harrenhal by throwing him off of a raised walkway. He killed Amory Lorch with a poisoned dart. Neither were subtle nor accidental.
2. He was displeased with Arya's naming him and then changing the deal which changes the balance due with the Red God, not about slaying the gate guards to get them out of there.
3. Arya was slashed once across the gut then stabbed twice, the second one was prolonged with the blade twisted inside of her.
4. She had one night of sleep between the stabbing and a chase in which she fell from various heights three times - the second one rolling down a staircase which re-opened her wounds.

 

[Grommers]

Yeah, Mark Mylod seems like a terrible director, the 4 episodes he's directed are all bottom in the IMDB ratings, not to say those are "religiously" factual, but more so I really don't feel my opinion is that far from the truth.

I wish they had Arya steal some meat, and hide it in her armor and was faking her death to the waif, e.g. blood would have came from them etc. Instead, she gets stabbed, fine the next day (I assume it was 1 day, was this ever confirmed?) and she's able to run, and then compete with the waif, who has dismantled her every time.

I don't even feel they wrapped up that whole story line very well.

The black fish not showing his death was another big no-no for me, you have time to have tyrion explain what a joke was to the sully, but not to show Black Fish a character you just introduced and how epic and grande he is, his death?

Director failed hard, but luckily it's only been 2 episodes this season he's directed, and the next 2 look to be very promising.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Marvolo]

Someone's about to get fired...literally.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Someone's about to get fired...literally.

Dang, just a week before Tyrion's scheduled performance review too.

 

[Marz69]

I loved the Jamie & Brienne scenes.

 

[Charlatan]

in Tyrion's defense when she left things were not well either.

 

[Charlatan]

Yeah, Mark Mylod seems like a terrible director, the 4 episodes he's directed are all bottom in the IMDB ratings, not to say those are "religiously" factual, but more so I really don't feel my opinion is that far from the truth.

I wish they had Arya steal some meat, and hide it in her armor and was faking her death to the waif, e.g. blood would have came from them etc. Instead, she gets stabbed, fine the next day (I assume it was 1 day, was this ever confirmed?) and she's able to run, and then compete with the waif, who has dismantled her every time.

I don't even feel they wrapped up that whole story line very well.

The black fish not showing his death was another big no-no for me, you have time to have tyrion explain what a joke was to the sully, but not to show Black Fish a character you just introduced and how epic and grande he is, his death?

Director failed hard, but luckily it's only been 2 episodes this season he's directed, and the next 2 look to be very promising.

wouldn't those issues you have be with the script/screenplay and not the direction?

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Yeah, Mark Mylod seems like a terrible director, the 4 episodes he's directed are all bottom in the IMDB ratings, not to say those are "religiously" factual, but more so I really don't feel my opinion is that far from the truth.

I wish they had Arya steal some meat, and hide it in her armor and was faking her death to the waif, e.g. blood would have came from them etc. Instead, she gets stabbed, fine the next day (I assume it was 1 day, was this ever confirmed?) and she's able to run, and then compete with the waif, who has dismantled her every time.

I don't even feel they wrapped up that whole story line very well.

The black fish not showing his death was another big no-no for me, you have time to have tyrion explain what a joke was to the sully, but not to show Black Fish a character you just introduced and how epic and grande he is, his death?

Director failed hard, but luckily it's only been 2 episodes this season he's directed, and the next 2 look to be very promising.

For whatever it's worth:
Director Mark Mylod on why the Waif and Blackfish died offscreen

I'm not buying his baloney at this point, and D&D with Bryan Cogman are as much at fault as he is.

 

[Charlatan]

Some lines fromt he episode that make me think Lady Crane was a FM/Jaqen

from the play..if you recall Arya told her she should re-write it. Maybe it was for her to hear too.

Listen to the gods, for you they sing.
Fight no more, sweet child.
The Father above beckons you to his hall.

(Here I think they are still trying to recruit her,give up her identity and become no one,essentially killing Arya)

(back in her place when she is helping Arya.)

She'll have a hard time finding work as an actress after what I did to her face.

You should come with us.
Got a feeling you'd be good at this sort of work.
And besides, we need a new actress.
Come with us.

(this fits both roles eh?)
What's that? - Milk of the poppy.
Arya: I don't want any.
Sleep is the only way you'll heal.
Trust me, if my soup didn't kill you, nothing will.

(just like the water in the House of B&W)

Something tells me when Arya gets on the boat to leave she will see Lady Crane again maybe seeing her off at the dock as the ship heads out of port.

 

[Victarion]

Matt's explanation of Arya's plan is spot-on what I was thinking as episode eight unfolded. The excess stab wounds and miraculous recovery were a dud, but I didn't think the logic was that hard to follow - any more obvious and I would've rolled my eyes at being hit over the head with it.

 

[Charlatan]

Matt's explanation of Arya's plan is spot-on what I was thinking as episode eight unfolded. The excess stab wounds and miraculous recovery were a dud, but I didn't think the logic was that hard to follow - any more obvious and I would've rolled my eyes at being hit over the head with it.

yeah that same explanation was posted over on Reddit ,it may have even been Matt who posted it. It's the simplest explanation but it isn't that plausible imo. No one heals that fast from those kinds of wounds. Lady Crane would have to be one hell of a trauma surgeon to stitch her up inside and out. Even then the blood loss,the bile,huge risk of infection from being in the canal,shock etc.

 

[Victarion]

Oh, I've said it before but looking at where they had Arya stabbed, her intestines' contents would've been spilling into her abdominal cavity. That would be really ugly in the series' timeperiod.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I loved the Jamie & Brienne scenes.

 

[TJByrum]

I really hope we see more Clegane/Brotherhood scenes. I just always liked the more gritty parts of the show. Pretty much everything Arya was involved in, until Hound's apparent death, was some of my favorite scenes. The 'Arya and the Hound' plot was one of my favorites of all time.