Season 6, Episode 7 "The Broken Man" Discussion Thread

[Roose Bolton]

They seem "burned out", jaded, and rightfully-fearful of Bolton power. And all of their manpower must be depleted from Robb's war as well. Everyone sent so many forces South before that they were all left vulnerable to the Ironborn -who they know are still out there, so I can see the hesitation in contributing more troops and unmanning their defenses.

In the books they had less reason to go to war, what with so many of their fathers, brothers, and sons still held prisoner at the Twins. I'm not saying it's illogical for them to behave the way they're behaving, I just don't like it because the books depicted the Lords of the North as inherently more loyal. It showed that Ned Stark's way of doing things with honour and mercy was worth it.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I liked her too. I especially liked the way that Davos dealt with her.

Speaking of Davos, the only thing worse than constant victim Sansa is bratty Sansa when she has a bit of power. It returned again last night. Her pointed comment to Jon about Davos, her attempt to demand House Glover comply with her, her still not trusting Jon regarding Littlefinger...it seems to me that the moment she is out of captivity, rude, demanding, brat Sansa of season one returned.

I'm pretty unhappy with this recent character shift too -at least in more recent episodes. I'm surprised Jon didn't rebutt her tirade with the fact that Stannis with Davos defeated the army of 100K wildlings which threatened to overrun Castle Black! But Brienne didn't help matters at all by communicating her own misgivings about Davos and Mel before she left. The distrust building here is going to result in a breach between Jon and Sansa soon I think, especially when Littlefinger meets them at Winterfell. In a conference between the victors, he may ask if Sansa heeded his advice to seek out her uncle. Then Jon will know she lied about that intel!

</span>

 

[Marvolo]

I liked her too. I especially liked the way that Davos dealt with her.

Speaking of Davos, the only thing worse than constant victim Sansa is bratty Sansa when she has a bit of power. It returned again last night. Her pointed comment to Jon about Davos, her attempt to demand House Glover comply with her, her still not trusting Jon regarding Littlefinger...it seems to me that the moment she is out of captivity, rude, demanding, brat Sansa of season one returned.

I can see why she would at least question Davos's worth at least once. She doesnt know anything about him. Has no established house. And he is a new knight. I would question his worth too. But she'll realize the value of Davos hopefully. Everyone comes to love Davos sooner or later.

As far as House Glover is concerned she had every right to demand Glover's support. And he wouldnt have dared speak to a daughter of Ned Stark the way he did if Ned and Ice were still around. The North needs to be cleansed of the usurpers and fair-weather allies.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

In the books they had less reason to go to war, what with so many of their fathers, brothers, and sons still held prisoner at the Twins. I'm not saying it's illogical for them to behave the way they're behaving, I just don't like it because the books depicted the Lords of the North as inherently more loyal. It showed that Ned Stark's way of doing things with honour and mercy was worth it.

I'm seeing exhaustion and prudence more than any sort of disloyalty. The Glovers in particular have the best of reasons to refuse.

Aside from that, what I'm surprised to see is that none of these Northern lords have questioned the fact that Jon Snow has broken his Night's Watch oath, something that's taken very seriously up there!

 

[Marvolo]

I guess they dont know that he has left the Watch. As far as they know he is just trying to gather an army to stop the Boltons.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I'm seeing exhaustion and prudence more than any sort of disloyalty. The Glovers in particular have the best of reasons to refuse.

Aside from that, what I'm surprised to see is that none of these Northern lords have questioned the fact that Jon Snow has broken his Night's Watch oath, something that's taken very seriously up there!

Yes the writing supports that within the show. But the thing is, they were tired, they were beaten, they were heartbroken and just plain angry in the books, but still their love of the Starks was enough for them to march through a blizzard with Stannis to rescue "Ned's little girl". What GRRM was saying there was that even though the North has been through hell, they'd continue to walk through hell for the sake of the Starks, because Ned and his father before him held to the old and honourable ways of doing things that made the North a good place to live. It's the notion that the Stark honour isn't some stupid and outdated ideal that doesn't hold up, it's worth it because it gets you the undying loyalty of the people you serve. Even Stannis was clinging to that notion of saving "Arya" for the sake of Ned's memory and to repay Jon's honour.

The show has written it in a way that it's understandable why they wouldn't fight, but I feel like something is lost by cutting out the North's Remembrance.

 

[Thundercrack85]

This adaptation has not been kind to the North. Barely any honor among them.

 

[Victarion]

You would think Lyanna would bring that up. Its interesting how neither Lyanna nor Lord Glover seemed all that shocked about the Night King and the wights.

 

[Marvolo]

Yes the writing supports that within the show. But the thing is, they were tired, they were beaten, they were heartbroken and just plain angry in the books, but still their love of the Starks was enough for them to march through a blizzard with Stannis to rescue "Ned's little girl". What GRRM was saying there was that even though the North has been through hell, they'd continue to walk through hell for the sake of the Starks, because Ned and his father before him held to the old and honourable ways of doing things that made the North a good place to live. It's the notion that the Stark honour isn't some stupid and outdated ideal that doesn't hold up, it's worth it because it gets you the undying loyalty of the people you serve. Even Stannis was clinging to that notion of saving "Arya" for the sake of Ned's memory and to repay Jon's honour.

The show has written it in a way that it's understandable why they wouldn't fight, but I feel like something is lost by cutting out the North's Remembrance.

Its something that sets the North apart from the South. Without it in the show the North and the Houses in the North are no better than the coniving opportunistic houses in the South.

 

[Roose Bolton]

The Starks may not have fared well in the South where honour means little, but in the North it should definitely count for something.

 

[Marvolo]

Agreed.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I guess they dont know that he has left the Watch. As far as they know he is just trying to gather an army to stop the Boltons.

Politics are no longer the concern of a Night's Watchman, only defending the Wall. And he's now sporting the cloak Sansa made with Stark wolf emblems on the straps, not the black cloak of the NW.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Yes the writing supports that within the show. But the thing is, they were tired, they were beaten, they were heartbroken and just plain angry in the books, but still their love of the Starks was enough for them to march through a blizzard with Stannis to rescue "Ned's little girl". What GRRM was saying there was that even though the North has been through hell, they'd continue to walk through hell for the sake of the Starks, because Ned and his father before him held to the old and honourable ways of doing things that made the North a good place to live. It's the notion that the Stark honour isn't some stupid and outdated ideal that doesn't hold up, it's worth it because it gets you the undying loyalty of the people you serve. Even Stannis was clinging to that notion of saving "Arya" for the sake of Ned's memory and to repay Jon's honour.

The show has written it in a way that it's understandable why they wouldn't fight, but I feel like something is lost by cutting out the North's Remembrance.

Well, they did manage to collect some troops so it's not like the North Forgot! The expectation that every single house would or should send troops even if they really have none to spare without totally denuding their defenses is not being fair or realistic, IMO.

 

[Marvolo]

Politics are no longer the concern of a Night's Watchman, only defending the Wall. And he's now sporting the cloak Sansa made with Stark wolf emblems on the straps, not the black cloak of the NW.

This isnt politics. Its necessary. The Night's Watch is sworn to protect the realm. The Boltons are weakening the North which is threatening the North and the Watch's ability to protect the realm from the White Walkers that are coming.

 

[Marvolo]

Well, they did manage to collect some troops so it's not like the North Forgot! The expectation that every single house would or should send troops even if they really have none to spare without totally denuding their defenses is not being fair or realistic, IMO.

Its not about whats "fair". They swore to follow and obey the Warden of the North when he needs them. Rickon is the Warden of the North at the moment. (Technically Bran would be but he is in the far north anf they dont kbow if he is even still alive.) And these Houses are not only refusing to fight for their liege Lord but are being extremely condescending and disrespectful to the Starks. It doesnt matter that the Boltons might skin them. It doesnt matter if they have 5 men or 5000 men. When the Warden of the North needs them they are to go help. Not talk down to the Starks and show their bellies to the Boltons.

Idk for sure that Ned would have executed them for what they are doing but he would have legally been well within his rights to punish these Lords for refusing to support the Warden in the North and the Starks.

Jon may not punish them after this is all done, but I would not be surprised if Sansa makes sure House Glover regrets its actions.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Well, they did manage to collect some troops so it's not like the North Forgot! The expectation that every single house would or should send troops even if they really have none to spare without totally denuding their defenses is not being fair or realistic, IMO.

So the storyline in the books isn't realistic or fair?

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

You would think Lyanna would bring that up. Its interesting how neither Lyanna nor Lord Glover seemed all that shocked about the Night King and the wights.

Didn't Commander Mormont send ravens to everybody after they faced some wights, asking for more men? These messages were laughed off in the South (Cersei certainly did) where Northerners are regarded as a "superstitious lot", but Bear Island of all places would give credence to something from Jeor, and perhaps Deepwood Motte too...

 

[Victarion]

Perhaps, but after so many years without the white walkers about...you'd almost wonder if Jeor were going senile. I could see where some of the Northern Lords would be skeptical; like Ned being skeptical about the existence of the children and white walkers in the present day.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

So the storyline in the books isn't realistic or fair?

No, you're not being realistic or fair with your expectations here.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

This isnt politics. Its necessary. The Night's Watch is sworn to protect the realm. The Boltons are weakening the North which is threatening the North and the Watch's ability to protect the realm from the White Walkers that are coming.

Marvolo, it's been underlined multiple times that the NW is concerned with protecting the realm from threats outside of it, particularly to the North of it. See Maester Aemon's talks with Jon in previous seasons. It doesn't matter to them who's in Winterfell or on the Iron Throne -that was made crystal clear.

I agree with what Jon is doing and his reasons, but the perspective of the Northern Lords should be on seeing a bastard deserter who has no business galavanting around the North away from the Wall, unless it's as a recruiter for the Wall like Yoren, still wearing black.

 

[Roose Bolton]

No, you're not being realistic or fair with your expectations here.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable in wanting them to depict one of the biggest elements of novels, especially when the author is using it to justify the morality of his protagonists. Going by the show logic, House Stark's stupid way of thinking should have gotten them all killed decades ago.

 

[Marvolo]

No, you're not being realistic or fair with your expectations here.

Do you not understand how feudal systems work and the duties lesser houses have to their Lord? Just because you've lost men or are low on men you don't get to spit in the face of your Lord or the Lord's House. It doesnt matter what the Lord has done or did in a previous war. When your lord or his house ask for help you show respect and explain why helping might be difficult and if you're lucky your lord will take your problems into consideration.

The Northern Houses in the books understand this and behave accordingly.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Its not about whats "fair". They swore to follow and obey the Warden of the North when he needs them. Rickon is the Warden of the North at the moment. (Technically Bran would be but he is in the far north anf they dont kbow if he is even still alive.) And these Houses are not only refusing to fight for their liege Lord but are being extremely condescending and disrespectful to the Starks. It doesnt matter that the Boltons might skin them. It doesnt matter if they have 5 men or 5000 men. When the Warden of the North needs them they are to go help. Not talk down to the Starks and show their bellies to the Boltons.

Idk for sure that Ned would have executed them for what they are doing but he would have legally been well within his rights to punish these Lords for refusing to support the Warden in the North and the Starks.

Jon may not punish them after this is all done, but I would not be surprised if Sansa makes sure House Glover regrets its actions.

"Fair" refers to the assumption by fans that all of the Northern Lords need to be loyal contributors to any Stark (female Sansa Lannister/Bolton) who comes along even at the expense and potential destruction of their own holdfast.

The Boltons are the the official Wardens of the North and have Winterfell by royal decree until they are deposed.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Do you not understand how feudal systems work and the duties lesser houses have to their Lord? Just because you've lost men or are low on men you don't get to spit in the face of your Lord or the Lord's House. It doesnt matter what the Lord has done or did in a previous war. When your lord or his house ask for help you show respect and explain why helping might be difficult and if you're lucky your lord will take your problems into consideration.

The Northern Houses in the books understand this and behave accordingly.

Yes I know how feudal systems worked in Europe and Asia and I don't need another condescending lecture from you either.

It wasn't Ned Stark, Lord of Winterfell who came calling, nor his rightful heir, nor are they Lords of Winterfell any longer nor Wardens of the North.

 

[Victarion]

No, but it was the last legitimate Stark capable of leading. And judging from the fact that Lyanna is recognized as a Lady and is essentially in charge of Bear Island, the Northerners don't seem to discriminate on the basis of gender.