Season 6, Episode 7 "The Broken Man" Discussion Thread

[Reek]

And as far as we know, the Boltons beat that army that Davos gained (at least if the letter to Jon is to be believed). Therefore, it goes to logic that the Boltons had their allies as well. The point stands. As I said in my other post, some Northerner lords like the Starks. Others don't. I am sure with the small folk there are similar opinions. Because as Littlefinger pointed out...codes, honor, gods...they are just illusory words we use to justify actions. In the end, people do what is best for themselves. In the end, the only true rights are the ones that those in power give. The only one with "rights" to the North is Ramsay. Ramsay has the right to rule the North because the throne gave it to him. The throne gave it to him because they have power to do so. They beat Robb Stark and took the North. Just as Aegon, who conquered the North ALLOWED the Starks to maintain their power as "wardens" when he conquered them and Tohrren Stark bent his knee. If Jon overthrows Bolton and the Lannisters, he has the right. If the smallfolk want to rise up and overthrow everyone and put the Starks in charge, they will have the right (should they win). But right now, to the victor go the spoils and the power. That is the only true tradition that matters.

 

[Reek]

The Battle of Wintermics

 

[Roose Bolton]

And as far as we know, the Boltons beat that army that Davos gained (at least if the letter to Jon is to be believed). Therefore, it goes to logic that the Boltons had their allies as well. The point stands. As I said in my other post, some Northerner lords like the Starks. Others don't. I am sure with the small folk there are similar opinions. Because as Littlefinger pointed out...codes, honor, gods...they are just illusory words we use to justify actions. In the end, people do what is best for themselves. In the end, the only true rights are the ones that those in power give. The only one with "rights" to the North is Ramsay. Ramsay has the right to rule the North because the throne gave it to him. The throne gave it to him because they have power to do so. They beat Robb Stark and took the North. Just as Aegon, who conquered the North ALLOWED the Starks to maintain their power as "wardens" when he conquered them and Tohrren Stark bent his knee. If Jon overthrows Bolton and the Lannisters, he has the right. If the smallfolk want to rise up and overthrow everyone and put the Starks in charge, they will have the right (should they win). But right now, to the victor go the spoils and the power. That is the only true tradition that matters.

Read the books, again. Theon's chapters make it quite clear that the only loyalty the Boltons can count on is from the Freys, whom they are now married to. All the other lords are only helping the Boltons because they have family held hostage and they will turn on Roose and Ramsay at the first sign of weakness. A point is even made that they're all on the verge of murdering them when they hear how "Arya" is being raped. We don't know that the Pink Letter is true, but it's made abundantly clear that vengeance is coming for the Boltons.

 

[Reek]

Not to mention Roose is kind of freaking out and not eating food his 'loyal houses' don't eat first.

 

[Matt]

Read the books, again. Theon's chapters make it quite clear that the only loyalty the Boltons can count on is from the Freys, whom they are now married to. All the other lords are only helping the Boltons because they have family held hostage and they will tune on Roose and Ramsay at the first sign of weakness. A point is even made that they're all on the verge of murdering them when they hear how "Arya" is being raped. We don't know that the Pink Letter is true, but it's made abundantly clear that vengeance is coming for the Boltons.

But that is the point that is being made! As Khonshu pointed out, everyone has a motivation for acting as they are acting. It goes beyond "GRRR! NORTHERN HONOR! STARKS!" Boltons have hostages, thus people listen to Boltons. Why do Boltons have hostages and power? BECAUSE THEY WON AND THE FAMILIES ARE DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM AND THEIRS. You can talk about abstract codes such as "honor" til you are red in the face. The Northern lords can pretend to have whatever motivation they want for acting as they are (just as Cersei pretends all the evil she does is for her children). It doesn't mean a damn thing if you aren't willing to stand by it when things get hard. And Ned Stark showed what happened to the idiots who stand by it. The Northern lords are smarter than that. They are kneeling to the Warden of the North, Roose/Ramsay Bolton because they have the power to make them kneel. If the bull **** about honor were true, no amount of hostages would keep the Boltons in Winterfell. The Northern lords would let their children die as sacrifices. But they aren't. Because their honor doesn't trump their own individual motivations. Their loyalty to the Starks is only as important as is convenient. The only truth is self-preservation. And you preserve yourself by going along with those in power.

 

[Lencho01]

I liked her too. I especially liked the way that Davos dealt with her.

Speaking of Davos, the only thing worse than constant victim Sansa is bratty Sansa when she has a bit of power. It returned again last night. Her pointed comment to Jon about Davos, her attempt to demand House Glover comply with her, her still not trusting Jon regarding Littlefinger...it seems to me that the moment she is out of captivity, rude, demanding, brat Sansa of season one returned.

Much better than Tommen, that's for sure.

I have a feeling they're do something that'll screw Sansa over. I just waiting for them to make things go bad for her again.

 

[Reek]

Much better than Tommen, that's for sure.

I have a feeling they're do something that'll screw Sansa over. I just waiting for them to make things go bad for her again.

Nah

It's a time for wolves

 

[Roose Bolton]

But that is the point that is being made! As Khonshu pointed out, everyone has a motivation for acting as they are acting. It goes beyond "GRRR! NORTHERN HONOR! STARKS!" Boltons have hostages, thus people listen to Boltons. Why do Boltons have hostages and power? BECAUSE THEY WON AND THE FAMILIES ARE DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM AND THEIRS. You can talk about abstract codes such as "honor" til you are red in the face. The Northern lords can pretend to have whatever motivation they want for acting as they are (just as Cersei pretends all the evil she does is for her children). It doesn't mean a damn thing if you aren't willing to stand by it when things get hard. And Ned Stark showed what happened to the idiots who stand by it. The Northern lords are smarter than that. They are kneeling to the Warden of the North, Roose/Ramsay Bolton because they have the power to make them kneel. If the bull **** about honor were true, no amount of hostages would keep the Boltons in Winterfell. The Northern lords would let their children die as sacrifices. But they aren't. Because their honor doesn't trump their own individual motivations. Their loyalty to the Starks is only as important as is convenient. The only truth is self-preservation. And you preserve yourself by going along with those in power.

"The bride weeps … Dressing her in grey and white serves no good if the girl is left to sob. The Freys might not care, but the northmen … they fear the Dreadfort, but they love the Starks."

"Not you."

"Not me, but the rest, yes. Old ****esbane is only here because the Freys hold the Greatjon captive. And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl. Lady Arya's sobs do us more harm than all of Lord Stannis's swords and spears."

Hostage or no, they're still on the verge of killing the Boltons. Hostage or no, half of the Lords of the North decided to support a Southron King with a foreign god and the promise of Stark restoration over serving the people who broke their oaths and murdered the Starks. Even the ones that pay lip service to Bolton loyalty are still in their hearts Stark men. Why else would "Arya's" mistreatment be such a threat to their rule? It's clear that the Northlords still see House Stark as their rightful rulers and plan on getting them back in power at the first chance.

The books make it clear, and Marvolo had the right of it. The only reason they're not utilising this aspect is because they want to make Jon seem like the underdog in this conflict for the sake of drama.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Hostage or no, they're still on the verge of killing the Boltons. Hostage or no, half of the Lords of the North decided to support a Southron King with a foreign god and the promise of Stark restoration over serving the people who broke their oaths and murdered the Starks. Even the ones that pay lip service to Bolton loyalty are still in their hearts Stark men. Why else would "Arya's" mistreatment be such a threat to their rule? It's clear that the Northlords still see House Stark as their rightful rulers and plan on getting them back in power at the first chance.

The books make it clear, and Marvolo had the right of it. The only reason they're not utilising this aspect is because they want to make Jon seem like the underdog in this conflict for the sake of drama.

You're taking the attitudes from one situation in the books and trying to insist that they should apply to a completely different one that's in a divergent storyline in the show.

Stannis was at least a male lord with his own holdfast (even if it is small) and the rightful king of Westeros by a claim that was supported by Ned, and he brought an army which wasn't made up of friggin' Wildlings! And after he liberated Deepwood Motte, he had more respect from Northern Lords -let's not leave this detail out either!

The show (the main subject of this thread) showed Robb behead papa Karstark, and that was going to have some far-reaching consequences which came to fruition in this season. It's not a stretch at all to have them bitter toward Starks and allied to the Boltons, and in the books they secretly are. Jon Snow allowed wildlings to settle in northern lands, and that has consequences too. The house closest to that is the Umbers so its natural that they would seek aid against this perceived threat and ally to the Boltons as well.

 

[Lencho01]

Nah

It's a time for wolves

Yeah, time for them to show up to get killed off again.

 

[Reek]

Quiet, you... there's 2 left.

 

[Victarion]

#BaeFlayed

 

[Reek]

Do you eat them after?

....nooo?

lol loved that response

 

[Roose Bolton]

You're taking the attitudes from one situation in the books and trying to insist that they should apply to a completely different one that's in a divergent storyline in the show.

Stannis was at least a male lord with his own holdfast (even if it is small) and the rightful king of Westeros by a claim that was supported by Ned, and he brought an army which wasn't made up of friggin' Wildlings! And after he liberated Deepwood Motte, he had more respect from Northern Lords -let's not leave this detail out either!

The show (the main subject of this thread) showed Robb behead papa Karstark, and that was going to have some far-reaching consequences which came to fruition in this season. It's not a stretch at all to have them bitter toward Starks and allied to the Boltons, and in the books they secretly are. Jon Snow allowed wildlings to settle in northern lands, and that has consequences too. The house closest to that is the Umbers so its natural that they would seek aid against this perceived threat and ally to the Boltons as well.

I don't think I've stated anywhere that the Karstarks should be loyal to the Starks. They were villains in the novels so naturally that implies they'd be villains in the show. The Boltons had nominal Umber allies as well, so I haven't argued against them. I've never said that the Boltons shouldn't have allies, but the Boltons having some support doesn't equate the Starks having no friendly houses. Glover's comments especially, don't ring true to the books depiction of them being devoted to the Starks. They only helped Stannis because he had to prove his worth as a liberator of the North rather than a foreign invader, it's not because they were too afraid to fight.

 

[Victarion]

Do you eat them after?

....nooo?

lol loved that response

BaeFlayed sounds like flambe.

I'll stop now.

 

[Iceman]

Do you eat them after?

....nooo?

lol loved that response

I bet that still pisses Ramsay off. Ruined his little game.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I don't think I've stated anywhere that the Karstarks should be loyal to the Starks. They were villains in the novels so naturally that implies they'd be villains in the show. The Boltons had nominal Umber allies as well, so I haven't argued against them. I've never said that the Boltons shouldn't have allies, but the Boltons having some support doesn't equate the Starks having no friendly houses. Glover's comments especially, don't ring true to the books depiction of them being devoted to the Starks. They only helped Stannis because he had to prove his worth as a liberator of the North rather than a foreign invader, it's not because they were too afraid to fight.

Oh sorry I thought you meant all the houses would be anti-Boltons and pro-Starks with unconditional love.

Well maybe if Jon and the Wildlings had liberated Deepwood Motte as Stannis did, the Glovers would be more supportive of them too!

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Okay I just rewatched the episode paying closer attention to Team Jonsa's scenes, and this is why the Glovers refused them:

1. This was only the second house they visited and Lord Glover wanted to know how many other houses had pledged support. They lost points for not having more than just the Mormonts.

2. Deepwood Motte was retaken from the Ironborn with Bolton help. So that's one critical difference right there from the books and why Lord Glover's attitude is different in the show.

3. The Ironborn imprisoned and tortured his wife and daughter and slaughtered their people because they were left defenseless while their troops were off fighting for Robb, so he's naturally bitter toward the Starks for that and not helping them, and expressed it.

4. Glovers biggest objection though was when he found out that their army is mostly made up of wildlings -that completely ended the talks right there!

At the outset of that meeting, Glover did say that he was willing to hear their plea out of the respect he bore for Jon's father.

Team Jonsa gathered support from three houses amounting to a little over 200 men before Jon cut the recruitment process short to march against Winterfell. This is what Sansa complained about at the beginning of the scene at Stannis' former encampment -she wanted to contact another family but Jon insisted there wasn't enough time, probably because the Wildlings and their families are sitting ducks!

The only reason they're not utilising this aspect is because they want to make Jon seem like the underdog in this conflict for the sake of drama.

There's nothing wrong with that, it is a drama.

If they had shown a bunch of scenes of houses pledging full support and their raising a large army which would crush Ramsay's posse then that's too easy and boring. If that's what they wanted, they wouldn't even need to bother with all that - just change the number of wildlings from 2000 to 10,000! The purpose of the underdog role is to bring in another complication within the "ally" of Baelish who was already set up last season to assume lawful control of the North as its new Warden once the Boltons were deposed.

 

[Charlatan]

Quiet, you... there's 2 left.

that we know of. For all we know Nymeria found a mate and has been multiplying all these years in the Riverlands. Why there could be hundreds of wolves in her pack.




Also I wonder why they haven't really shown us any Warg dreams of Arya's on the show. In the books she had many.

 

[Lencho01]

Sansa's letter...

http://imgur.com/a/p2mfe

Quiet, you... there's 2 left.

 

[BestGirl]

Every character could be killed with only Lyanna Mormont remaining and I think I would be perfectly happy. She's that wonderful.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Every character could be killed with only Lyanna Mormont remaining and I think I would be perfectly happy. She's that wonderful.

Yeah, considering that the writers on the show seem eager to push Ramsay Bolton further up the atrocity meter leads me to suspect the worst for her.

 

[godisawesome]

Okay I just rewatched the episode paying closer attention to Team Jonsa's scenes, and this is why the Glovers refused them:

1. This was only the second house they visited and Lord Glover wanted to know how many other houses had pledged support. They lost points for not having more than just the Mormonts.

2. Deepwood Motte was retaken from the Ironborn with Bolton help. So that's one critical difference right there from the books and why Lord Glover's attitude is different in the show.

3. The Ironborn imprisoned and tortured his wife and daughter and slaughtered their people because they were left defenseless while their troops were off fighting for Robb, so he's naturally bitter toward the Starks for that and not helping them, and expressed it.

4. Glovers biggest objection though was when he found out that their army is mostly made up of wildlings -that completely ended the talks right there!

At the outset of that meeting, Glover did say that he was willing to hear their plea out of the respect he bore for Jon's father.

Team Jonsa gathered support from three houses amounting to a little over 200 men before Jon cut the recruitment process short to march against Winterfell. This is what Sansa complained about at the beginning of the scene at Stannis' former encampment -she wanted to contact another family but Jon insisted there wasn't enough time, probably because the Wildlings and their families are sitting ducks!



There's nothing wrong with that, it is a drama.

If they had shown a bunch of scenes of houses pledging full support and their raising a large army which would crush Ramsay's posse then that's too easy and boring. If that's what they wanted, they wouldn't even need to bother with all that - just change the number of wildlings from 2000 to 10,000! The purpose of the underdog role is to bring in another complication within the "ally" of Baelish who was already set up last season to assume lawful control of the North as its new Warden once the Boltons were deposed.

I don't disagree with the idea that their changes are based on building drama; I will however argue there is something overly theatrical and less rewarding than a more by-the-books portrayal of the situation would be.

Martin tended to write his conflicts in a way that reflected both real world consequences and complications, but approached in a way that at times pointed out why a bunch of the stand-byes of both feudal societies and fantasy existed. The overall result was more rewarding because it maintained drama and tension, but did so while grappling with more fascinating ideas and characterizations.

I mean, a huge part of the Bolton plot in the books was based around showing why Ned's honor (or more accurately, benevolent governing skills) was actually very, very useful, and why even when political realities seem to bind the North to the Boltons, the Stark's history of overall benevolent rule undermines the very foundation of Roose's pragmatism and power. Which is all stuff that plays into why, as horrible as the system was, feudalism lasted so long. It also builds into the Stark's place as a fantasy great house.

And it means that the more stereotypical cinematic tricks they're trying to employ here only make the most likely outcome feel predictable.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I don't disagree with the idea that their changes are based on building drama; I will however argue there is something overly theatrical and less rewarding than a more by-the-books portrayal of the situation would be.
And it means that the more stereotypical cinematic tricks they're trying to employ here only make the most likely outcome feel predictable.

I disagree. That kind of adaptation is burdened with a lot of sociological exposition that's cumbersome and boring in anything other than a documentary, and I think that's much more predictable too. By contrast in the show, we really have no idea what Littlefinger is going to do.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think he said Snow. Do ya'll think the High Sparrow can get the Queen of Thorns if she flees to Highgarden? Remember last season, how he talked about controlling the people that harvest the grain. I took that as him having done some preaching down there at some point.

Nah. I think that was revolutionary talk, like how the Bolsheviks thought there would be a worldwide workers revolution.