Season 6, Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" Discussion Thread

[Marvolo]

Look at the difference between the wildling formation and the Bolton formation:

Jon and Tormund need to work on their lines. Tighten that **** up.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

And the last bit of HBO pix:

Spoiler

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[Fist of Khonshu]

 

[Marvolo]

Sansa looks so strong there. Its awesome how far she has come and how much she has grown as a person.

That timid girl from season 2:

...has grown into a true wolf.

 

[Matt]

im not so sure that Walder is dumb enough to believe it. i remember a couple of others not believing the news as well.
he seemed so determined to solidify his standings in the north that i'm kinda surprised he's not upset, but then again, he's got the mess at Riverrun his sons are trying to fix lol.
and he has a daughter married to a Tully. that's about all i know

Even if Walder knew, I doubt he'd care. He's not the sentimental type and isn't going to risk pissing off a stronger house because Ramsay killed one of his 15 daughters.

 

[TheFuture]

Look at the difference between the wildling formation and the Bolton formation:

Jon and Tormund need to work on their lines. Tighten that **** up.

I've already mentioned my fear that going by the preview I've no doubt Jon is going to be treated like a chump in comparison to the battle hardened, master tactician, that is Rambo Bolton.

Jon is a former LC of the Night's Watch ffs who is well versed in battle. It's so frustrating to see them go down this route. It's absolutely unnecessary and there are other ways to build up tension and raise the stakes that wouldn't betray Jon's character.

 

[Matt]

I've already mentioned my fear that going by the preview I've no doubt Jon is going to be treated like a chump in comparison to the battle hardened, master tactician, that is Rambo Bolton.

Jon is a former LC of the Night's Watch ffs who is well versed in battle. It's so frustrating to see them go down this route. It's absolutely unnecessary and there are other ways to build up tension and raise the stakes that wouldn't betray Jon's character.

I am so bored with this critique. What should Jon do? Go to the great houses of the South where Sansa is wanted for murdering the king and ask them to fight a war for him? Try again with the Northern houses that already told him no?

Stannis already explained last season why time is of the essence: once winter really picks up, it could be years until WInterfell could be taken. Time is of the essence. Jon has no allies. This is his shot.

Is it a suicide mission? Probably, and Jon seems to know that. Moreover, he doesn't seem to care. Think of what he told Mel in the preview: "if I die, don't bring me back again." Jon seems okay with dying. He has been portrayed as intentionally detached throughout the season. As has been established, people do not return from the dead unscathed. Jon's recklessness could be a reflection of that.

 

[Victarion]

Also - I don't think Jon's skills as a commander matter here - armor and superior numbers with discipline = an absolute massacre of a ragtag force like the wildlings. Remember in A Storm of Swords - Stannis and his knights managed to come in and put down Mance's army, and that was when Mance still had a few giants in his forces.

Where it will matter is how Jon handles himself in the heat of the battle. If we don't see him directing the warriors and fighting, then you can say they kinda did that more to favor Rambo Bolton.

 

[TheFuture]

I am so bored with this critique. What should Jon do? Go to the great houses of the South where Sansa is wanted for murdering the king and ask them to fight a war for him? Try again with the Northern houses that already told him no?

Stannis already explained last season why time is of the essence: once winter really picks up, it could be years until WInterfell could be taken. Time is of the essence. Jon has no allies. This is his shot.

Is it a suicide mission? Probably, and Jon seems to know that. Moreover, he doesn't seem to care. Think of what he told Mel in the preview: "if I die, don't bring me back again." Jon seems okay with dying. He has been portrayed as intentionally detached throughout the season. As has been established, people do not return from the dead unscathed. Jon's recklessness could be a reflection of that.

If I take the preview in isolation to illustrate my point, Jon is being willfully naive of the threat Ramsey poses, the first by ignoring Sansa's advice on who he is dealing with and secondly by actually trying to parly with the guy that sent him that pink letter. Yes, that letter where Ramsey repeatedly threatens him, Sansa and eveyone under his protection.

I like that Jon is suffering from an identity crisis after his death, but that shouldn't turn him into an amateur on all fronts, from dealing with Lyanna Mormont to Ramsey snow.

 

[Matt]

If I take the preview in isolation to illustrate my point, Jon is being willfully naive of the threat Ramsey poses, the first by ignoring Sansa's advice on who he is dealing with and secondly by actually trying to parly with the guy that sent him that pink letter. Yes, that letter where Ramsey repeatedly threatens him, Sansa and eveyone under his protection.

I like that Jon is suffering from an identity crisis after his death, but that shouldn't turn him into an amateur on all fronts, from dealing with Lyanna Mormont to Ramsey snow.

But in fairness, Jon IS an amateur. His time with the Night's Watch was being Steward, running around with Wildlings (only because he pissed off Craster so much with his lack of diplomacy that he got sent on a mission, which led to him infiltrating Mance's army), then becoming Lord Commander for a short period. His time as Lord Commander led to the most loyal members of the Watch, the true believers, mutinying (and in the book, one can even say that the mutiny was justified due to Jon's poor leadership and the fact that he was about to break his oath and lead the Night's Watch to war against Ramsay...not as much on the show, in which it was understandable but not necessarily justifiable).

Jon is good with a sword and is good in battle (as evidenced by the Battle of the Wall). There is nothing to indicate that he is particularly smart in terms of strategy, tactics, or diplomacy. Hell, he seems to be like Robert Baratheon in that regard, good at leading men in battle, bad at planning and diplomacy. So its not like his behavior is inconsistent with the character's established skill set.

That being said, Jon needs his own Jon Arryn. Tyrion is already taken by Dany. Maybe that is Littlefinger's next move. Convince Jon that he is the advisor that Jon needs, all while plotting to usurp his position?

 

[TheFuture]

But Jon isn't an amateur, he was a leader at the battle at the wall, which ultimately culminated in him being made Lord Commander. That is not a post you get by being a fool, with even Thorne admitting at the battle that Jon had the foresight and wisdom to call for a tough but right decision (with Thorne's pride preventing him from listening to Jon).

Jon also successfully negotiated a truce with the Wildlings at the height of conflict which again, is not something that could be achieved by someone not astute in diplomacy.

He also gave Stannis some pointed advice in regards to the North.

Jon came into his own in season 4 and 5 as a clever and savvy leader albeit without ever having proper battlefield experience. He should stil have the brains to know that Ramsay cannot be negotiated with and how to properly rally the North under the Stark Banner even if they do mutter bastard at him.

EDIT, wow I can't say s******?! Had to replace it with mutter.

 

[jokesonm3]

Episode 9 is always awesome, can't wait.

 

[Kane52630]

Big Character Death
Battle
Big Character Death
Battle
Big Character Death

and Battle

 

[Matt]

Big Character Death
Battle
Big Character Death
Battle
Big Character Death

and Battle

In fairness, season 4's battle contained multiple big deaths. So it wouldn't be inconceivable for another such event. t:

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I wouldn't consider Shireen's death an "awesome" thing. I enjoyed that episode more for the gladiator combat followed by Drogon incinerating Harpies!

 

[Matt]

I wouldn't consider Shireen's death an "awesome" thing. I enjoyed that episode more for the gladiator combat followed by Drogon incinerating Harpies!

Shireen's death is arguably the most effective single scene that the show has ever produced.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I am so bored with this critique. What should Jon do? Go to the great houses of the South where Sansa is wanted for murdering the king and ask them to fight a war for him? Try again with the Northern houses that already told him no?

Stannis already explained last season why time is of the essence: once winter really picks up, it could be years until WInterfell could be taken. Time is of the essence. Jon has no allies. This is his shot.

Is it a suicide mission? Probably, and Jon seems to know that. Moreover, he doesn't seem to care. Think of what he told Mel in the preview: "if I die, don't bring me back again." Jon seems okay with dying. He has been portrayed as intentionally detached throughout the season. As has been established, people do not return from the dead unscathed. Jon's recklessness could be a reflection of that.

One Northern house said no, and then he cut the recruitment tour short to march on Winterfell. That was highlighted in the argument with Sansa who wanted to keep trying before she wrote the letter to Littlefinger in desperation. But I suspect we aren't done with other Northern houses and more will show.

Time is of the essence but that has more to do with the fact that thousands of Wildling women and children are sitting ducks to a pre-emptive strike from a Bolton/Umber force. It's attack or be attacked where you are quite vulnerable.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Shireen's death is arguably the most effective single scene that the show has ever produced.

Arguable indeed. I'd say it wasn't necessary and done for shock value whereas Robert's and Ned's deaths were absolutely crucial and then there's the Red Wedding, Joffrey's and Tywin's deaths!

 

[godisawesome]

Yeah, Shireen's death might also prove to be the biggest character assassination of a book favorite on the show if it turns out some of us are right and Book!Stannis has a better death while Selyse and Mel do their thing with Shireen's seperately.

The important thing about this battle to me is to show Jon having good practical sense and keeping up the previous Big Battle themes of having the tide go back and forth for both sides. Blackwater and Watchers on the Wall managed to give both the protagonists and antagonists little victories leading up to the climax. That's what made them feel like epic battles; good men and bad men on both sides rose to the occasion or were crushed under the weight of the situation.

So hopefully Jon displays intelligence and improvisational abilities and we see a few moments where the Stark forces prove more resilient and intelligent than their foes at times, and maybe Ramsay has to put so,e of his cunning to use once or twice.

It would suck if it really was just "Charge! Oops, turns out charging a larger opponent was stupid, we're dying, and oh look, the Army of the Vale." So it probably won't be like that.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Some solid confirmation that this episode won't focus solely on the North:

Spoiler

Joanna Robinson of Vanity Fair shared this spoiler-containing image on Twitter from the latest issue of TV & Satellite Week magazine:

 

[Victarion]

The Sacrifice embody Mel's old saying, "the night is dark and full of terrors." Except instead of those being the undead, they're a warden whose son hunts people for sport, rapes/murders, and heroes that weighted one child's life against a kingdom beset by butchers and threatened by an army of the dead - and found it worthwhile to sacrifice one life for that of a kingdom.

I didn't like the deviation from the book, but I didn't see any reason to be too upset over it. Lemonade from lemons.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Except we didn't get any "lemonade" so that rationale doesn't hold up.

 

[Victarion]

I did - mine's in my post.

 

[Kane52630]

Looking back, will we ever see Illyrio Mopatis again?

 

[warriorking]

I still hold out hope that Jon has an ace up his sleeve as far as the battle is concerned..
The previews show him charging forward in a reckless manner, something he as well as his followers with all their knowledge and training would never do without some sort of plan ..
And if you notice in the trailer the wildlings appear to be retreating in a somewhat disciplined manner before the advancing shield wall.. Not throwing themselves wildly or foolishly attempting to break it head on...
I think he is drawing the pike men forward creating a gap in Ramsey"s army exposing their rear.
Possibly so calvery hidden in the woods that can sweep in..
Lets be honest the thought of the Vale forces coming in to save the day after Jon is near defeat really sounds very hollow, lazy and very, very predictably boring..
I think Jon has some surprises for Ramsey in this battle..