Season 7, Episode 6 "Beyond the Wall" Discussion Thread

[Roose Bolton]

Bran understands that sometimes it's necessary to abandon our humanity to save humanity. He's the beginning and the end.

 

[Reek]

She's absolutely angry. [BLACKOUT]She even flat out says she's angry... like verbatim [/BLACKOUT]

 

[Ezio Auditore]

Say what you want about this episode. There are flaws like in every other episode. But nothing will erase from my heart seeing [BLACKOUT]Jon,Tormund,Sandor,Jorah,and Beric back to back clashing and smashing wights.[/BLACKOUT]
This episode is a 10.

Spoiler

why did the Hound continue to throw the rock at 1 of the wights? was he just testing them or did he want them to make a move rather than wait to freeze to death?

I would say its the latter. Judging by his personality

 

[Marvolo]

She's absolutely angry. [BLACKOUT]She even flat out says she's angry... like verbatim [/BLACKOUT]

When did she tell Sansa that?

 

[DACrowe]

When did she tell Sansa that?

When [blackout]Sansa is trying to talk Arya down from showing the letter to the lords. Saying you'll regret something you do in anger. And Ary's like, "Same with fear, and I choose anger, yo!"[/blackout]

My reading of that subplot is:

Spoiler

That it is somewhat contrived by Dave and Dan to give Sansa and Arya something to do in Winterfell before the final season, and to make it seem like Littlefinger could destroy the Starks. But it seems entirely derived from a miscommunication between the two...and honestly Arya being kind of crazy. I don't think Arya would kill her sister...I kind of hesitated like Sansa did with the knife scene, but if they were going to do it, it would have been then because that was pretty damn scary!

With that said, I do believe in the context of the show Arya would not give her older sister the benefit of the doubt. And honestly, this is not about Jon Snow at all, it is about an (at this point) irrational disdain of Sansa. Keep in mind that even if Sansa is worried about losing power and respect in the North that she is correct: showing that letter to the Northern lords would destabilize power, and likely cost Jon more. Lords could just as easily give up about rallying around the Starks. So really, Arya is behaving bananas. I can believe it's in character, so I'm going along with it. But to get there, some contrivances were definitely made.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I really like the Arya/Sansa stuff.

It emphasizes these people haven't seen each other for years. In that time they have all changed, but Sansa didn't really have a great relationship with any of her family members, and it was because Sansa was awful. This is the Sansa Arya knows, the Sansa Arya remembers. The one who treated Jon like he was an annoying pet they had to deal with.

Just compare Sansa's bond with her silbings to Jon's. Jon was the favorite of Arya, Bran and potentially even Robb. I always thought it was ironic last season when Sansa ran into Jon's arms, because she treated him like dirt her entire life. He shouldn't have wanted anything to do with her. But Jon isn't like that. And who did Arya and Bran return to see? Jon. Not Sansa.

If Sansa wants them to see she has changed, perhaps she should give them a compelling reason to. Jon is kind, but Arya ain't here for that ****. Neither is Bran in this state.

 

[Legendver2]

Spoiler

That death stare between Jon and NK makes me anticipate their potential 1v1 duel. God the way Jon looks this time fighting the wights and WW is a completely different look than Hardhome. Before, he had the look of a scared boy, not knowing wth is going on and if he'll survive. Now he is full man, full of confidence taking out wights while clearing the way for his comrades to escape, with a look of determination, and even anger after Viserion's fall. This Jon v NK duel is gonna be some epic ****. Please let it happen!

 

[DACrowe]

I really like the Arya/Sansa stuff.

It emphasizes these people haven't seen each other for years. In that time they have all changed, but Sansa didn't really have a great relationship with any of her family members, and it was because Sansa was awful. This is the Sansa Arya knows, the Sansa Arya remembers. The one who treated Jon like he was an annoying pet they had to deal with.

Just compare Sansa's bond with her silbings to Jon's. Jon was the favorite of Arya, Bran and potentially even Robb. I always thought it was ironic last season when Sansa ran into Jon's arms, because she treated him like dirt her entire life. He shouldn't have wanted anything to do with her. But Jon isn't like that. And who did Arya and Bran return to see? Jon. Not Sansa.

If Sansa wants them to see she has changed, perhaps she should give them a compelling reason to. Jon is kind, but Arya ain't here for that ****. Neither is Bran in this state.

It has been a long time since I cracked open AGOT, but from what I recall Sansa had a good relationship with her parents (until her brattiness over blaming Ned for Lady) and with Robb and Bran. It was, quite ironically, Arya and Jon who she was chilly with. I think that is intentional given how things are ending that it will be some combination of these three to carry the Stark name on after this is all over. (Bran is bye-bye).

I agree that Sansa was a spoiled brat in the first season and book, but I give her a lot more rope, especially after the "Joffrey forces a kid to look at her father's severed head" scene, which I only recently learned is based on some ancient Assyrian story, funnily enough.

As per the current conflict, Arya is proving she needs to change her game up if she wants to live in the world of lords and ladies, and houses again. She is very good at reading weaknesses, but she doesn't seem to know how to use that beyond finding ways to break or kill someone. And she is picking at a weakness Sansa shares with most people on this show, including fan favorites Daenerys and Tyrion, which is a thirst for power. And she is using that and her preconceived notions to find an excuse to seemingly destroy her sister, without any self-awareness of how it would throw the North into chaos, including Jon Snow.

Arya is my favorite Stark, but she is behaving stupidly and in a way that could get them all killed. She is also old enough where I do not feel the need to cut her any slack, anymore than folks are always ready to castigate Sansa (my second favorite Stark) because of mistakes she made when she was like 14 on the show and closer to 12 in the books if I recall correctly.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I never understood the reason for nobility or royals. But hot damn, Jon can be my eternal king forever. Dude is just worthy of GOD status.

but what's a god to a nonbeliever?

 

[legendkillin]

Just watched it.

Spoiler

I knew a dragon was going to go out soon. I honestly don't know the other dragons outside of Drogon the one Dany rides. Anyways still when the king took it out I said "That mofo just took out a dragon!" then the end...can we call it a Blue eyes white dragon(I know skin isn't white now)?

 

[RockSP]

I don't get the whole hostility Arya has for Sansa, nor the hostility Sansa has for Jon Snow

it'd be great if we got to see what Bran thought of his sisters infighting.

What hostility?

 

[Legendver2]

Just watched it.

Spoiler

I knew a dragon was going to go out soon. I honestly don't know the other dragons outside of Drogon the one Dany rides. Anyways still when the king took it out I said "That mofo just took out a dragon!" then the end...can we call it a Blue eyes white dragon(I know skin isn't white now)?

Spoiler

Blue Eyes Wight Dragon bro

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Spoiler

I guess it's safe to assume the wight dragon will shoot ice as opposed to fire. **** is definitely getting real. They weren't kidding when they said everything was going to move FAST. The tension during that battle was amazing. It just sucks because everyone left at this point are great characters. Every death is gonna be seriously felt.

 

[Reek]

guy keep the spoilers in the spoiler thread or flickchick is going to lay the smack down on your candy asses.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

It's in spoiler tags. I'm not sure how much more obvious it could be.

 

[Reek]

I couldn't care less... I'm just telling you the rules flick dropped down the other day. Carry on

 

[guitarsingerguy]

This entire thread is one GIANT spoiler. I think I'll be ok...

 

[Reek]

I found the post... It's safe... I was just trying to help and not get people in trouble...

**** me, right guitarsingerguy?

 

[Elayis]

This is the level of quality they should’ve strived for the entire season, not the just this solitary episode (and bits of ”Spoils of War”). Not that it isn’t still nonsensical and predictable, but at least there’s a momentum to it, along with the spectacle to keep it entertaining in a popcorn movie kind of way.

Spoiler

Before the encounter with the wights, I thought the camaraderie moments with Jon & Co were for the most part well done, probably some of the best writing since season 4. Even the stuff in Winterfell and Dragonstone was okay until the bewildering confrontations that came up. It was nice to have genuine character moments that were relatively well written. It feels like ages since we’ve had competently constructed scenes of people talking that felt natural and organic. A lot of the unresolved issues I had with the previous episode were tidied up, so that was nice to see. The calm before the storm angle was handled nicely, which is word I haven’t used about this show in years.

But the fight scenes were kind of a mess. Not sure if it’s just the low quality/choppy framerate of the bootleg, but it was hard to tell what was going on (and not in a good way). A lot of the moments in the action was very unsurprising and rote, as well. I haven’t read too many spoilers (just Wight Dragon and boat sex), but anyone familiar with standard storytelling tropes could’ve written this episode. Not really surprising, other than the fact that only one of the main 7 died (had a feeling it would be Thoros, too as he seemed the most expendable).

The Sansa/Arya conflict took a weird turn, too. Why was Sansa searching through her rooms? And how twisted (and frankly out of character) is Arya to openly contemplate wearing her sister’s face? She’s smart enough to outsmart and kill the Waif, infiltrate and wipe out the entire Frey male line, but she can’t see through Littlefinger’s obvious plotting? And she can’t just sit down and have a simple conversation with her sister, where they could hash out their issues in a couple of minutes?

I have to say, I think the reason why Littlefinger’s character hasn’t been working for the last few seasons, but especially in these episodes, is because we know exactly what he’s plotting and why. Before, you never knew what he was doing or what ends he was trying to achieve. Now that the audience is in on the act, it’s lost its appeal. Unfortunately he’s boring now, and long past his expiration date. Not sure why he seemed to lose all of his ambition and guile after killing Lysa, but he’s taking up valuable screen time and needs to go.

Sending off Brienne was odd, too. Why send the only trustworthy person you have, who’s also a very capable fighter, to a meeting with Cersei (for no good reason) where she’ll likely be killed?

And did Tormund actually cry for help? What the hell was that?

The stalemate with the wight army/Gendry running all the way back to the Wall for help was just laughable. How could he make it back so fast? (I’m assuming their initial trek took days, maybe a week or two, and yet it seemed Gendry made it back in a couple of hours) It also seems as if the raven made it Dragonstone in less than a day, same with Dany making the trip.

Timey-wimey stuff aside, why the hell would the wights just stand there for days? Even with white walkers and the Night King showing up? And yet start charging because Sandor kicked their fellow zombie and threw some rocks? The Night King should’ve had no way of knowing dragons exist again, let alone that they were in Westeros and coming to save the day. As powerful as the show has portrayed them (which frankly, isn’t that impressive, given how easily people have dispatched the Others recently), it’s never been even hinted at that they are omniscient. Some kind of connection with the Three Eyed Raven/Children of the Forest, sure, but not all seeing or all knowing. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

I’m also really sick of this need D&D seem to have to make Jon the dumbest guy in the room. It was bad enough he and his men had to be rescued during BotB, but early this season he willingly let himself become a hostage of a foreign queen (with dragons!), then suggested and went on this harebrained suicide mission, and then when being rescued from his foolhardy escapade almost gets himself killed again by his bloodlust (only to be saved yet again by deus ex Benjen). And I hate this constant predilection to bring back characters only to kill them off in the same episode. I get it, D&D don’t like the books and only want to focus on their core characters, but they could at least be a little less lazy and put some thought into it. I doubt Jon will even mention or think about his uncle again. What a waste.

The only major thing I would’ve done differently would be to omit Benjen and have Rhaegal be the one to save Jon (and therefore also prove to Dany that she’s not the last Targaryan). Might put a crimp in their plans for romance, but I think it would’ve worked better dramatically. By the way, I didn’t see Rhaegal after Viserion was killed; was he somehow taken out too, or was HBO just being cheap and didn’t want to fork over the anymore for the CGI?

All of that said, it still (almost) kept me on the edge of my seat and was mostly enjoyable (with my brain off), so I’d be comfortable giving this a 7-7.5. It still doesn’t top that spine-tinglingly perfect final moment of Hardhome (and I still miss Richard Brake as the Night King), but I think overall this was a stronger episode.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

Spoiler

I gotta say it scared the **** out of me when Tormund was yelling for help. I thought he was a goner. Luckily Bronn handed him the "outstanding luck" card in time.

 

[Chesterfield]

This episode was equal parts amazing and upsetting.

At this point and so close to the end game im not too fussed who dies but...

Spoiler

the dragons. It bothers me to see them hurt or get taken out

 

[Ezio Auditore]

This is the level of quality they should’ve strived for the entire season, not the just this solitary episode (and bits of ”Spoils of War”). Not that it isn’t still nonsensical and predictable, but at least there’s a momentum to it, at long with the spectacle to keep it entertaining in a popcorn movie kind of way.

Spoiler

Before the encounter with the wights, I thought the camaraderie moments with Jon & Co were for the most part well done, probably some of the best writing since season 4. Even the stuff in Winterfell and Dragonstone was okay until the bewildering confrontations that came up. It was nice to have genuine character moments that were relatively well written. It feels like ages since we’ve had competently constructed scenes of people talking that felt natural and organic. A lot of the unresolved issues I had with the previous episode were tidied up, so that was nice to see. The calm before the storm angle was handled nicely, which is word I haven’t used about this show in years.

But the fight scenes were kind of a mess. Not sure if it’s just the low quality/choppy framerate of the bootleg, but it was hard to tell what was going on (and not in a good way). A lot of the moments in the action was very unsurprising and rote, as well. I haven’t read too many spoilers (just Wight Dragon and boat sex), but anyone familiar with standard storytelling tropes could’ve written this episode. Not really surprising, other than the fact that only one of the main 7 died (had a feeling it would be Thoros, too as he seemed the most expendable).

The Sansa/Arya conflict took a weird turn, too. Why was Sansa searching through her rooms? And how twisted (and frankly out of character) is Arya to openly contemplate wearing her sister’s face? She’s smart enough to outsmart and kill the Waif, infiltrate and wipe out the entire Frey male line, but she can’t see through Littlefinger’s obvious plotting? And she can’t just sit down and have a simple conversation with her sister, where they could hash out their issues in a couple of minutes?

I have to say, I think the reason why Littlefinger’s character hasn’t been working for the last few seasons, but especially in these episodes, is because we know exactly what he’s plotting and why. Before, you never knew what he was doing or what ends he was trying to achieve. Now that the audience is in on the act, it’s lost its appeal. Unfortunately he’s boring now, and long past his expiration date. Not sure why he seemed to lose all of his ambition and guile after killing Lysa, but he’s taking up valuable screen time and needs to go.

Sending off Brienne was odd, too. Why send the only trustworthy person you have, who’s also a very capable fighter, to a meeting with Cersei (for no good reason) where she’ll likely be killed?

And did Tormund actually cry for help? What the hell was that?

The stalemate with the wight army/Gendry running all the way back to the Wall for help was just laughable. How could he make it back so fast? (I’m assuming their initial trek took days, maybe a week or two, and yet it seemed Gendry made it back in a couple of hours) It also seems as if the raven made it Dragonstone in less than a day, same with Dany making the trip.

Timey-wimey stuff aside, why the hell would the wights just stand there for days? Even with white walkers and the Night King showing up? And yet start charging because Sandor kicked their fellow zombie and threw some rocks? The Night King should’ve had no way of knowing dragons exist again, let alone that they were in Westeros and coming to save the day. As powerful as the show has portrayed them (which frankly, isn’t that impressive, given how easily people have dispatched the Others recently), it’s never been even hinted at that they are omniscient. Some kind of connection with the Three Eyed Raven/Children of the Forest, sure, but not all seeing or all knowing. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

I’m also really sick of this need D&D seem to have to make Jon the dumbest guy in the room. It was bad enough he and his men had to be rescued during BotB, but early this season he willingly let himself become a hostage of a foreign queen (with dragons!), then suggested and went on this harebrained suicide mission, and then when being rescued from his foolhardy escapade almost gets himself killed again by his bloodlust (only to be saved yet again by deus ex Benjen). And I hate this constant predilection to bring back characters only to kill them off in the same episode. I get it, D&D don’t like the books and only want to focus on their core characters, but they could at least be a little less lazy and put some thought into it. I doubt Jon will even mention or think about his uncle again. What a waste.

The only major thing I would’ve done differently would be to omit Benjen and have Rhaegal be the one to save Jon (and therefore also prove to Dany that she’s not the last Targaryan). Might put a crimp in their plans for romance, but I think it would’ve worked better dramatically. By the way, I didn’t see Rhaegal after Viserion was killed; was he somehow taken out too, or was HBO just being cheap and didn’t want to fork over the anymore for the CGI?

All of that said, it still (almost) kept me on the edge of my seat and was mostly enjoyable (with my brain off), so I’d be comfortable giving this a 7-7.5. It still doesn’t top that spine-tinglingly perfect final moment of Hardhome (and I still miss Richard Brake as the Night King), but I think overall this was a stronger episode.

Spoiler

I agree practically with everything. A little better editing would made it clear to show just how much time did they wait. Or maybe the Hound constantly breaking the ice to gain time.
And maybe even show Daenerys leave for Eastwatch BEFORE Gendry even made it back. Just her having a hunch and freking she shoudl go North to help Jon or something like that. That couid have solved some time troubles

Sorry for my english

 

[DACrowe]

Spoiler

I guess it's safe to assume the wight dragon will shoot ice as opposed to fire. **** is definitely getting real. They weren't kidding when they said everything was going to move FAST. The tension during that battle was amazing. It just sucks because everyone left at this point are great characters. Every death is gonna be seriously felt.

I am honestly surprised that [blackout]every named character except Thoros made it through the raiding party. I thought for sure Beric and Jorah were goners. Not that I'm complaining too much, mind you, since we unexpectedly ended up losing Vision! [/blackout]

 

[Ezio Auditore]

A friend of mine who watched it told me that

Spoiler

he found it akward for the NK and his army to just stand there watching . And then he realised he was waiting for something. Maybe he knew the dragons were coming and it was all a setup. Like, why the hell was there a lone WW with a wight group, and after he dies all of them EXCEPT ONE fell. Why did it not fall? Was it because of plot convenience? Or it was all a setup by the NK?
This also ties with the NK having visions just like Bran?

Maybe we are just crazy and it was all just lazy writing, who knows.

 

[RockSP]

Hmm...the bootleg I saw must've been incomplete judging by what some of you have been typing.

Spoiler

Timey-wimey stuff aside, why the hell would the wights just stand there for days? Even with white walkers and the Night King showing up? And yet start charging because Sandor kicked their fellow zombie and threw some rocks?

Spoiler

They were standing there because the ice was breaking earlier and they kept falling in. When he threw the rock and the ice didn't break, they knew they could walk on it. At least that's how I read that scene.