Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

Discussion in 'Captain America: Civil War' started by Thread Manager, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. KevTravels Registered

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    So originally Sharon was due to have the role that BW had in The Winter Soldier?

    Or was it simply that Sharon was due to have a bigger role but just not the lead female role?

    I sure hope she has a role in IW even if it's just a 2 minute cameo.
     
  2. Capsfan Registered

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    Webfoot Hero, some people are interested in Cap's romantic life, some are fans of the character from the comics. Personally, I want to investigate, why her role was reduced in CW.
    Originally Sharon was set to be the female lead in TWS and to have a bigger role in CW.

    I consider a 2 minute cameo in IW rather pointless and even slightly insulting to the character. She's already disappeared from CW after the kiss. I don't want her to pop up in IW just to show herself as: 'Hi, I'm Steve's girlfriend! Goodbye!'. Woman is not a consolation prise for a hero. Sharon needs a role on par with Falcon and Bucky. Or don't bother at all.

    Okay, I've done it.
    And no, I disagree that she is constantly whispering. But I have to admit though, you still have a point. Yes, I've noticed too that this whisper-talk occurs a little too often. I don't know, maybe it's a feature of her character in Revenge specifically?
    But even in case it's not, tbh, I don't know if it's enough to consider her acting bad and scale down her role because of it. I'm just not good enough at the evaluation of acting performances. I can never tell who is a good actor and who is not.
     
    #777 Capsfan, May 26, 2017
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  3. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Bucky is Steve's lifelong friend. Just like a son or a brother, emotional connection is the defining factor, not any sort of moral code.

    I don't know, did he? Because Whedon ignored that, too. Even so, hardly anyone defends IM3 as great because of Tony's decision to retire.

    They could have not had him in the movie.

    Being good filmmakers doesn't preclude them from being opportunistic or playing to the broadest demographic.

    The point is, Cap is a headliner himself. So, even if they don't care much about Sharon herself they should care about the love interest of their most popular Avenger after IM.[/quote]

    I read spoilers on reddit that the movie had Clint's family killed by Crossbones, and that it ended with Steve shamed by Spider-Man into surrendering and that Tony would have Ross arrested.

    And so was Chris Pratt. And Chris Hemsworth.

    You make it sound like the Russos had absolutely no power.

    Maybe they could have been more vocal and supportive of Sharon instead of dismissive and indifferent. Or were they not allowed to do that, either.

    Funny how the studio isn't mandating roles in Black Panther for Cap or Black Widow. Or how Thanos isn't even in Gotg2.
     
  4. KevTravels Registered

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    I'm not aware of Carter's importance in CA's history or so. That def does suck if she had a lead role and lost it. Maybe if they cast a bigger star, maybe they might have kept her status unchanged. Then again I imagine the studio wanted to guarantee a certain success so they decided to throw in another Avenger.


    I still think a cameo is doable for Sharon in Infinity War. A nice 5 min role either to conclude her story or maybe something for the fans.
     
  5. Capsfan Registered

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    The Russos transferred Sharon's role to BW in TWS. Not the studio.

    She had 5 min role in Civil War already.
    If she is in IW, it shouldn't be a cameo. The fate of the universe is on the stake and she will sit somewhere off-screen doing nothing important? No, thanks. She already did something like that in CW, which wasn't very flattering for her character.

    In case Sharon returns in IW, she should be working with Cap, Sam and Bucky. Which, judging by CW, the filmmakers are not inclined to provide.
     
  6. KevTravels Registered

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    Hard enough to squeeze screentime from bigger stars and fan favs but then again there are so few female characters, it would be something nice to have.

    Did the Russos ever say why they downsized her role and gave to BW?
     
  7. Capsfan Registered

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    The point of IW is to do justice to everyone. If Falcon is able to get a decent role, Sharon should too.
    Gunn had no problem introducing and giving a fair share to Mantis (which is a new character and isn't played by a big star) in the already bloated cast. The filmmakers make fan favorites, not the over way around. That's not the problem. When they want, they are able to give screentime to everyone. In case of Sharon they were actively truncating her role in the both movies.

    Of course, they didn't. Would you expect them to admit they downsized Sharon's role? VanCamp was initially cast as the female lead. Deadline reported that. Early casting calls confirmed it. Then the Russos said they gave BW 'much bigger role' in TWS. Count 2 plus 2.
     
    #782 Capsfan, May 29, 2017
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  8. KevTravels Registered

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    I was not aware of this so quite naturally it comes as a surprise to me.

    They don't have to openly state it. But can explain reasoning behind a new character in the film or decision to bring in BW.

    when was Van Camp cast? and when was SJ cast? That might help to understand some factors.

    Agreed. They could have done far better. Again I'm not aware of CA's history so I can't say I'm disappointed in her treatment. I figure she is owed a bigger role but nothing on level of what Falcon or even Ant Man got in CW. Those are fan favs. Now of course Sharon could easily be made a fan fav. So few women in the series, they def should be doing that.

    Hopefully she has a role in IW. Better a 5 min role (consistent) with her previous films than no inclusion at all.
     
  9. Capsfan Registered

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    This is basically what is the whole discussion in this thread is all about.

    VanCamp was cast around two months before the beginning of shooting.
    SJ's involvement was announced earlier, but she wasn't supposed to have a very big role.

    In the comics Sharon is Cap's supporting character. The same as Falcon. Then why she isn't on the level of Falcon? It was the Russos who made him popular.

    Totally disagree. What is even the point of having her there showing up to say: 'Hi, I'm Steve's girlfriend! Goodbye!'? Sharon is so much more than that in the comics. It's disrespectful to treat female characters like that. Her 5min role in CW made more harm to her character than good. So either they fix it, meaning she gets a role on par with Falcon and Bucky this time, or better don't bother at all.
     
    #784 Capsfan, May 29, 2017
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  10. KevTravels Registered

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    It doesn't have to be an all or nothing.

    I do concur her role should be larger. But no room for anything larger until the next Captain America film.

    Did fans respond to her? That could help swap the writers. It sucks that she was downsized and I agree it is disrespectful for female characters to be pushed into a box solely for love interests. Enough room in the MCU for another capable female SHIELD agent.
     
  11. Capsfan Registered

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    Tbh, I don't even know, why we are still discussing this. It's a matter of personal opinion and the author of the article is entitled to their own. From my experience no lifelong friend can ever be compared to your children. I don't want to demean the importance of friendship, but it's just how it is in life for me. Too different emotional connections.
    That's what I'm talking about. And this is the point.
    I'm not defending TWS. I simply speculate what factors might have made the Russos being more excited with BW as the female lead.
    I very much doubt it. The point of CW was to gather everyone available in the big fight. The screenwriters talked about the need to have more people in the airport, because it's called Civil War. Thor and Hulk weren't there only due to enormous gap in powers with everyone else.

    It's just that I don't see any motivation for them in doing so. The studio has it, but not the Russos. They don't get any money or fame out of it. They play to the broadest demographic by doing good movies, not by introducing new Avengers, cause comic-book fans are too small of a part of the audience for that to be the case. The characters are popular and beloved because they are interesting and entertaining, not because they are Avengers or played by big stars. Guardians of the Galaxy is the most obvious example of that. Peggy Carter or Pepper Potts are more popular among the general audience than War Machine or Vision. Falcon had become popular before he was an Avenger. Bucky isn't an Avenger. Both Mackie and Stan are not so famous. Heck, people even love Luis.
    Add to this that the Russos were announced as Avengers 3,4 directors before the beginning of CW's shooting. There was no personal profit for them to screw up Cap's LI in favor of someone else. They got nothing from the CW's box-office.

    ps. And as we know, the studio had been planning to introduce BP in Cap 3 even before it became Civil War.
    [/QUOTE]
    ... ?

    IIRC, that was 4chan. But that's not the point. I'm not claiming this rumor to be true. I just think it's worth speculation for the following reasons:
    1) As I've said, Minxie's source turned out to be legit and it provided resembling information.
    2) Sharon initially being in the post-credit is too minor thing to make it up just for the sake of it. The user, who provided this info, has never been noticed in any kind of hate towards Sharon.
    3) I always thought it's really weird that she dissapears from the movie after the kiss. The Russos shot her CIA scene for TWS in reshoots, but she isn't in the ending here at all? There should have been at least one more brief scene with her.
    4) If they cut her out of the airport and changed her scene with Steve after the funeral (even though the original date-scene was a much better setup for the later kiss) on reshoots, it's quite believable they've made some over changes as well we are not aware of.
    Maybe because the studio deemed Civil War as the most convenient movie to make some development to the important characters before IW?

    Hulk and Dr. Strange are in Thor 3. I think it's just the new tendency that the last installments of solo franchises serve more as team-ups, while BP is only having his first movie.

    Although, I admit, even by this logic I still don't see what prevented them from having Sharon in the airport. They needed more people to be there anyway.
    I don't think they've ever been dismissive. I bet they knew that they screwed up here and didn't know what to say properly. What could they have said? It's hard to say something about Sharon in this film that would advertise the character and be true at the same time. I'm sorry, but what poor Emily was forced to say about her character was laughable most of the time. 'She follows her heart, not her head'. Is it really supportive of Sharon, who was quite the opposite in the comics? 'She doesn't know the Avengers, it wasn't her fight'. Seriously? Did BP, Ant-Man or Spidey know many people in the airport? Needless to say, team Cap was going after Zemo, not team Tony. 'They have this innate chemistry'. Sorry, we haven't seen any kind of special bond between your characters but Peggy. What Sharon and Steve have in common? Show, don't tell.

    _____________
    In case of Sharon it's something or nothing. Cause she's got nearly nothing in the previous movies.

    Are we sure there gonna be the next CA film at all? I doubt it.

    They've given her so little, it's strange to expect good response from the audience so far. First the filmmakers should make her character developed and interesting. And it requires screentime.
     
    #786 Capsfan, May 29, 2017
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  12. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Well my point is that TWS isn't as deep or thematically impressive for Cap as its fans say.

    Not quite, as if you take IM3 by itself, it is still a solid story about Tony deciding to hang up the armor. Later movies contradict that.

    If you take TWS, it isn't a solid story re Natasha because for all the talk of her becoming idealistic, she really isn't since she outright rejects facing consequences.

    The factors you describe aren't consistent, so it is hard to ascribe them to the Russos.

    It was because they have their own movie and being in Civil War would screw with it.

    They get massive accolades from "nailing Spider-Man" alone. So I disagree.

    Well, yes. Characters can become popular if they are given interesting and entertaining stories.

    It is easier and more profitable to use characters that are already popular, made so by someone else's prior work.

    They get the prestige or glory, shall we call it.

    Not to mention, they got the Avengers job before CW shooting but pre-production on CW (storyboards/script) was already done/being done.

    They have no small talent for BS, I'm sure they could have BS'ed something to say about Sharon if they gave a damn.
     
  13. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Found this old chestnut yesterday

    Which isn't about Sharon but reflects a pretty dismal view of Cap. And by implication his entire mythos.

    They seem think they they invented different tones for Cap post-thaw, for pity's sake.
     
  14. Voltron Registered

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    Ok I'm not sure why my reply to this ages ago was deleted, but..........

    Ummm your post stat is 30 something per day and mine and BullMcGiveny are less than 3 posts per day :whatever:.

    Because Sharon is a MAJOR character in the Cap comics and should've been a MAJOR character in the Cap movies as well! The groundwork for her major appearance in the two latter movies was laid out and stated by the writers in the first movie until the Russos who admitted that they are no fan of Cap's comics short changed her for their love of BW/scarjo!! I've said this before and I don't care that I'm saying it again.
     
  15. Capsfan Registered

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    BullMcGiveny, we are running in circles. My point is that every movie is a work of art, there is no exact science behind it. So since it's all debatable and just a matter of opinion, the Russos might have had their own which is very different from yours or mine. Natasha goes on the run in the end of TWS, away from her friends and familiar life. (Whedon deciding to ignor it is another question.) Initially Russos were signed for only this one movie. So, it's pretty likely that the Russos personally considered that as consequences and a good character arc. Even if they were wrong it that at the end of the day, it's still a possible and reasonable opinion.
    Spider-Man would have been in this movie regardless of Russos' desire to put him in. Marvel made a deal with Sony, Sony wanted to promote SM before Homecoming, so even if Cap 3 wasn't CW, Spidey would have been in it anyway. And SM is like the most popular character even among the GA, which have never read any comics. Spidey coming to the MCU is a huge event by itself, so it's more like an exception.

    Add to this that there were no guarantees in 'nailing' him and getting 'massive accolades'. It was a huge risk, cause people still remember Toby and Garfield in this role and it's hard to avoid comparisons.
    Easier? I strongly disagree. People always compare their beloved characters with their counterparts from previous movies. That's why Whedon was praised for BW in the Avengers and got a huge backlash for her in AoU. You have to come up with something new for an old character in order to avoid stagnation, while not making it out of character at the same time. If anything it's easier to make an interesting character from a blank sheet (see also: Black Panther). More profitable? Yes, but it's a studio's interest, not director's. And new characters become profitable too all the time.

    They've got next to no prestige or glory for Rhodey, for example. I would say, he is even more unpopular among the GA than Sharon. No matter that he's an Avenger. And this is Cap's movie, not IM's. But still he gets more screentime and better pronounced motivation. Why?

    The problem is, I don't see any evidence of what you are accusing them of, but Sharon. And one example is hardly a tendency. (And no, I'm not buying Crossbones and Zemo as any kind of proof, cause Marvel constantly do the same with all their villains. See also: AoU, GotG, GotG v.2) Yes, it might be that, but we have to think of some other possible reasons too. It's more likely that after the Bruce/Natasha backlash the studio wanted more Wanda/Vision in order to develop and promote them before IW. The Russos didn't get much fame for them in CW. Yes, they were better received than Steve/Sharon due to the better execution, but that's it. The GA didn't care much about them. I think, a good romance for the title character would have made a much bigger impact than Wanda/Vision. Due to Cap's sad story with Peggy, people wanted a happy romance for him nowadays and I don't believe the Russos weren't aware of that. (I hope you won't try to claim Wanda or Vision being more popular than Cap.) And this is the reason why Sharon initially had a bigger role in CW. If the Russos are after the prestige, they would want to get it for nailing Cap's love interest too, I bet.
    And this is exactly why it's hard for me to buy your theory.
    Yes, you're right. And in this pre-production Sharon had a bigger role, she was in the airport. That's what is very strange for me in all this situation. Huge amount of work had been done and Sharon was featured in all the promo-art for the film. She had a bigger role, but was reduced at the eleventh hour.
    It's very different from the TWS situation, mind you. VanCamp was cast as a female lead in February 2013. TWS shooting began in April. It's quite a short amount of time, but we haven't seen any art or storyboards with Sharon as a female lead.
    The only BS from them I recall was about SM and even that might be interpreted differently. They've never claimed Spidey being important to the plot. And as I strongly suspect, they were contractually obligated to BS about Spidey, so. It doesn't mean they like to lie. The majority of what they've said about over characters turned out to be true.

    And anyway, did you really want them to BS about your favorite character just to be dissapointed after watching the movie? :huh: Do you support a false advertising?
    I don't see why they would necessary dislike Sharon just because they dislike comic-books Cap. They are two very different characters. Sharon is not so black-and-white as Cap. They obviously find the Winter Soldier being an interesting character, so your statement doesn't prove to necessary be true.
    Maybe with Sharon they've confronted the problem of her being too similar with BW, so it's become hard for them to not make her a BW 2.0 and to make her interesting at the same time. It is a possibility.
     
  16. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Because Spider-Man is some obscure character that needs promotion?

    Well if the studio is happy, then that's in the directors' interest. Isn't it?

    They've done just that. They've talked about how the movie would be very different without him. That makes it sound like he's supposed to be important to the plot.

    It would have made me think they gave a damn, at least.

    If they thought Cap was so boring, then they're unlikely to have stuck around to read up on his supporting cast.

    If they didn't like Cap, then they're not gonna give a **** about his important relationships.

    Just because the two share some themes and a skill set, doesn't make Sharon into BW 2.0. Sharon wouldn't need to be smug and unreliable like BW. She could have a personality and quirks of her own.
     
    #791 BullMcGiveny, Jun 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  17. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Also, the biggest factor in BW and Sharon being similar is that both are connected to Cap, because TWS/The Russos made BW that way, and once that was done she clearly wasn't going anywhere.

    Amusingly, because they'd ingrained BW so much to the Cap movies, then there's no chance of her getting a true solo like her fandom wants without Cap showing up.

    Unless he's killed off, in which case he might not be the second most popular Avenger as you claim.
     
    #792 BullMcGiveny, Jun 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  18. Rote Registered

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    She whispers in TWS and CW as well.
    Fair. But consider this. Pretty good foreshadowing.
    And then you have that rumor from May, 2015, which predicted her role getting scaled down due to her poor acting. Bam!!
     
  19. KevTravels Registered

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    Got a link for that rumor?
     
  20. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Yes. A user that got banned. Describing a scene that no one's ever saw.
     
  21. KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    I am an active member of this online community that posts all over the place as I have a wide variety of interest when it comes to super hero fiction.


    What I am not doing is debating about the role of Sharon Carter for literally years. Cuz this "debate" about Sharon, one which does come off as obsessive, has been going on since before THE WINTER SOLDIER came.


    Maybe you all need this but... The Winter Soldier came out in the year 2014. We are now six months into the year 2017. And it's been pretty much a dead end circular argument that's gone steady since then.

    Be offended all you want but... I'm sorry but thinking this shows the obsessive and mildly scary side of the fanboy set isn't as out there as... Well it's not as out there as having the same circular argument for years about Sharon Mutha-cussin' Carter... And I like the character of Sharon. I think lots of stuff can make for interesting debate in comic circles. The characters, the stories the mythology, the social impact, the fun... There's so much to have constructive discussion about. But this? This is none of that.

    People are free to do as they wish. I just cannot for the life of me understand the enjoyment to come out of this particular conversation or what fuels it emotionally but it's does not come across as healthy and I am sorry if that offends some around here, mods or regular users alike. But the Hype is a cesspool of strange compulsive behavior and that WITH the constant moderation.

    People can come here and post as they like and I guess in the main no one is being immediately harmed. Still... It's three years and two film and film forums later and the "debate" about a third tier Marvel Comics adapted character's screen time is still happening.

    It comes off as the stereotype the mass culture has about us fans.

    Let's put it this way... If in three months this thread is still active with the same people having the same "debate"? Yeah... That's not a reflection on people pointing out the unproductive and silly nature of what this has come to represent.

    By the by I can take weeks off the Hype. Have done so in the past and will do so in the future, even with 30 posts plus a day. I do so to maintain perspective about what is and is not worth the investment of time and energy. To remind myself that there's more to life than useless debate, which can be easy to forget. I suggest it for LOTS of posters. Take time off and get that needed perspective.

    If someone cannot stop posting about Sharon Carter for god's sake... You could have a problem.
     
  22. Rote Registered

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    No, I didn't believe it then, cause it was around the time EVC getting confirmed for CW. I've only recalled it when her small reduced role was confirmed. iirc, it was somewhere on IMDB boards which are shutted down now. They also turned out to be right about SM role.

    But I have an evidence that she wasn't the Russos choice.
    http://deadline.com/2012/10/five-ac...ole-black-widow-might-drop-by-as-well-347013/
    See? No mention of EVC in the short list. So I bet that rumor about Disney forcing Russos was true. ABC and Disney tried to push her as the next big "it girl" like how Hollywood does with every young attractive up-and-coming actress. They've even released a comic-book based on Revenge:
    [​IMG]

    Besides Alison Brie would have been a better choice. At least she doesn't whisper all the time like EVC.
    Doesn't mean he couldn't have been a real extra. His history doesn't indicate him as a hater.
    Little insignificant scenes like this get cut all the time. Could have been a scene after her encounter with Crossbones. We've never seen what she was doing during the hellics crush.
     
    #797 Rote, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  23. Capsfan Registered

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    I'm tired of this discussion going in circles.
    I only hope that these new Spider-Man spoilers will put an end to these accusations of the Russos not caring about Cap's mythos at last. It's obvious now this is Marvel Studios in a nutshell. They don't even care about Spidey's comic-books.
     
  24. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    If you're taking weeks off at a time, that just means you're coming back to post over a hundred times a day to maintain that 31ppd ratio. I can't say I've ever done half as that, myself.

    I also post in other sections of the forum, perhaps much less frequently. But in other sections of the forum, when I make a post about how Stannis was screwed over on game of thrones, I don't get a deluge of posters telling me the show is not the book or that it has been two years.. If this board is unhealthy, the problem doesn't start with this thread.

    I browse down to the Cap section of the forum because maybe one day there'll be something to be interested about. But it is often this thread showing at the top, with pissy condescension therein, from you or whoever else.

    You talk about this ""debate"" being circular, and sure, it is. But it takes two sides to have a debate, and your pissy condescension (which had gone on since before CW came out, which you ignore in favor of making it about TWS) seems to directed at only one.

    Are you a fan of Bill Hicks? There's the bit where he talks about someone mentioning to him that it takes more energy to frown than to smile, to which Hicks replied that it takes more energy to point that out than to mind their business.

    That's kind of representative of the situation here.

    If you can't stop fretting about this thread, maybe check yourself?
     
    #799 BullMcGiveny, Jun 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  25. universeman Registered

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    Yep. And Disney/Marvel don't care about Mary-Jane or Sharon. They just care about Spidey and Cap teaming up with the Avengers.
     

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