Sequels Should Sony Persue Rights to the Kingpin?

[Spider-Fan]

Why in the world would this comedic cheapskate in JJJ want to finance a project to create a villain and kill spiderman? What's the motive. It is clear what his role in these movies are and I just don't see it. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Mac Gargan Scorpion but I am willing to bet they will change his origin story all together. However bring him on.

Have him hurt JJJ's business over at the Bugle. It can be done.

Back to Kingpin, I am not saying make Mysterio a crime boss, but he could be a mastermind like character. He is one of Spidey's more cerebral villains. I don't think we need a trilogy of movies with Kingpin hiring goons. It would just be watching three Carmine Falcone movies, and I think we can do better.

This argument is moot anyway. Kingpin is property of DD, and will never appear in a Spidey film (thank goodness).

 

[Spiderine]

Have him hurt JJJ's business over at the Bugle. It can be done.

Back to Kingpin, I am not saying make Mysterio a crime boss, but he could be a mastermind like character. He is one of Spidey's more cerebral villains. I don't think we need a trilogy of movies with Kingpin hiring goons. It would just be watching three Carmine Falcone movies, and I think we can do better.

This argument is moot anyway. Kingpin is property of DD, and will never appear in a Spidey film (thank goodness).

What three movies are you talking about? There is no need to bring him in SM4 as there is already a villain set up for that movie. We are talking about SM5. There needs to be a new direction for the francise after 4. A fresh new tone. Kingpin would not need to get the carmine falcone treatment. We can't even compare Spiderman and Batman villains here. Now as far as Mysterio goes, what sort of cerebral games are we talking about? Is he just F***ing with Peter's head? Creating illusions? What would be the ultimate motive for this scheme. Is he working for someone or working alone. Please share with us because other than a Saturday morning cartoon what could Mysterio do in a live action movie.

 

[Spider-Fan]

What three movies are you talking about? There is no need to bring him in SM4 as there is already a villain set up for that movie. We are talking about SM5. There needs to be a new direction for the francise after 4. A fresh new tone. Kingpin would not need to get the carmine falcone treatment. We can't even compare Spiderman and Batman villains here. Now as far as Mysterio goes, what sort of cerebral games are we talking about? Is he just F***ing with Peter's head? Creating illusions? What would be the ultimate motive for this scheme. Is he working for someone or working alone. Please share with us because other than a Saturday morning cartoon what could Mysterio do in a live action movie.

Easy, Mysterio's motive could be revenge. Set up Spider-Man getting him arrested, then have him come back as Mysterio. The ruin of his life and imprisonment leaves Beck ruined and on the edge of sanity. He uses his talents to try and do the same to Spider-Man. If I were doing a Mysterio movie, I would base it heavily off his first appearance. First, Mysterio ruins his name (commits crimes dressed as Spidey), then appears as if he is a superhero, and then sets out to destroy him.

With his powers of illusion, he could do so much visually on screen and play mind games.

Again with the Kingpin, I don't see why we need a Luthor/gangster type here.

 

[Spiderine]

Easy, Mysterio's motive could be revenge. Set up Spider-Man getting him arrested, then have him come back as Mysterio. The ruin of his life and imprisonment leaves Beck ruined and on the edge of sanity. He uses his talents to try and do the same to Spider-Man. If I were doing a Mysterio movie, I would base it heavily off his first appearance. First, Mysterio ruins his name (commits crimes dressed as Spidey), then appears as if he is a superhero, and then sets out to destroy him.

With his powers of illusion, he could do so much visually on screen and play mind games.

Again with the Kingpin, I don't see why we need a Luthor/gangster type here.

That may seem plausible...but where is he getting these powers of illusion. Are these actual powers that he developed or some sort of halogram devices. Mysterio just seems like the one villain that needs to drastically be updated or changed for a movie. and further more what villain would be in this movie with him. There has to be someone else. How are you linking him with this other villain? Are they just teaming up to get Spiderman like Sandman and Venom? I certainly would like to see all of his classic villains represented at some point in this six movie deal. That includes Mysterio but this plan can't be the driving force for an overall plot in the movie. Mysterio seems more of a complimentary villain with someone else IMO. Especially if you try and top the last 4 movies at that point. I think Lizard and Kraven will be just fine in SM4 as long as they write a well played out story and give these villains material to work with.

 

[Spiderine]

Easy, Mysterio's motive could be revenge. Set up Spider-Man getting him arrested, then have him come back as Mysterio. The ruin of his life and imprisonment leaves Beck ruined and on the edge of sanity. He uses his talents to try and do the same to Spider-Man. If I were doing a Mysterio movie, I would base it heavily off his first appearance. First, Mysterio ruins his name (commits crimes dressed as Spidey), then appears as if he is a superhero, and then sets out to destroy him.

With his powers of illusion, he could do so much visually on screen and play mind games.

Again with the Kingpin, I don't see why we need a Luthor/gangster type here.

I have said it time and time again we have not seen Luther represented properly in any of those superman movies. If they get off their asses andstop making him a land grabbing con artist and make him more sinister Luther could have been outstanding. Its one of my biggest complaints of Superman returns. Just one of many might I add.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I would definately pair Mysterio with someone else. You need to give the audience someone a bit more physical then Mysterio to go along with him. Mysterio is the mind of the movie, you can get someone like a Scorpion or Electro to be more the muscle.

As far as his powers, he should develop them. Mysterio's multiple illusions should be shown to confuse Peter's Spider-Sense, and make Mysterio able land good blows because of it. This would also give us a villain that didn't get created by a freak accident or scientific formula. It would be something new.

You are right about Luthor in SR. He was terribly done. Luthor in S:TM was about right cause that era Luthor was like that. The newer business Luthor should have been done in SR, but they missed a golden opportunity.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Fine I am over it... they won't get King Pin because of the rights I know... but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't use him if they could... why the hell not a gangster villain in two or three films... lets add more realism to SPiderman... not make it more fantastical and go Batman & Robin or Star Wars Prequels you get what I am saying? Will they get him... no.... but should they? Absolutely... and no one seems to have an idea for an over arching trilogy type villain to replace Dafoe... and please don't give me another buildup for Hopgoblin in SM6 paired up with another phony... every just wants to go from Villain A to B to C.... okay Lizard for SM4... then Mysterio... then Electro... woops I forgot Scorpion... what is the connecting element to these characters? How will 4-6 be related... what will the continuity be like? Jumping from villain to villain with no connections at all will be a disaster and the franchise won't even make it to SM6

 

[Mr Jide]

Well, with 6 planned movies in total, trying to get the rights for kingpin now is a waste of time and money. The studio might as well make use of what they've got. You want crime bosses, why not use hammerhead? At least he has a physical attribute that can be exploited.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Fine I am over it... they won't get King Pin because of the rights I know... but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't use him if they could... why the hell not a gangster villain in two or three films... lets add more realism to SPiderman... not make it more fantastical and go Batman & Robin or Star Wars Prequels you get what I am saying? Will they get him... no.... but should they? Absolutely... and no one seems to have an idea for an over arching trilogy type villain to replace Dafoe... and please don't give me another buildup for Hopgoblin in SM6 paired up with another phony... every just wants to go from Villain A to B to C.... okay Lizard for SM4... then Mysterio... then Electro... woops I forgot Scorpion... what is the connecting element to these characters? How will 4-6 be related... what will the continuity be like? Jumping from villain to villain with no connections at all will be a disaster and the franchise won't even make it to SM6

Like the first movies, the villains cater to the hero not the other way around. While the Green Goblin had a presence in each movie, that doesn't mean a trilogy has to have an arching villain. Peter's journey is the trilogy's story, not his villains. Thus, the villains don't need to be connected. Peter's journey has to, and each villain should fit into Peter's journey, not make Peter's journey center around a villain. That is not how the Green Goblin was handled.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Like the first movies, the villains cater to the hero not the other way around. While the Green Goblin had a presence in each movie, that doesn't mean a trilogy has to have an arching villain. Peter's journey is the trilogy's story, not his villains. Thus, the villains don't need to be connected. Peter's journey has to, and each villain should fit into Peter's journey, not make Peter's journey center around a villain. That is not how the Green Goblin was handled.

Well said... I agree with this... but cmon we are running out of themes here... how many times can the girl get kidnapped... how many times can a villain take revenge... how many times can Parker keep his life interesting and actually give us something we haven't seen before... its all going to be reoccuring themes for the next three flicks anyway... so I just want the characters that will give us the best story. I just don't see potential with Carnage, Shocker, Rhino, Electro... all C villains to me... the only guy left out there is Lizard... I like Scorpion... I even like Kraven... heck Mysterio can help bang out another hit in SM5... but thats not enough for a trilogy... I mean I can't be the only one who doesn't want Hopgoblin or Venom/Carnage for SM6 right? Bottom line is we are running out of villains that give us the best stories. You guys don't want Ock back... but you want Carnage instead? You guys are tired of Goblins in SPiderman movies but there is always the Hopgoblin to do... you guys want Sandman back in the films... but you don't want a Sinister 6. We need to make up our minds... how come there is no consensus on what to do after Lizard... cause no one knows what will work beyond that... if anything. The villains and characters are the only elements perpetuating Parker's journey... lets utilize the best ones... doesn't mean Kingpin can do that.... but we got to do better than Hopgoblin or Carnage.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Gotta disagree on Electro, but to each his own.

True past the Lizard, Kraven, Mysterio, and Scorpion, we have low end villains (before getting into someone like Hobgoblin who wouldn't be a popular pick). However, I see Electro much like Sandman. Give him a story, and he can work and provide excellent action (though probably can't carry a story). Carnage will be used at some point, but I agree he is shallow and rather not a good villain. Hobgoblin I personally wouldn't mind in like Spider-Man 6, because we will have had two movies without any goblins. He could give us kind of the full circle effect.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I just fundamentally disagree with the concept... if Sony makes Ben Kingsley the new owner of Oscorp or something like that we'd be getting too much of the same thing... how is it that different? How would Kingsley or anyone not named Osborn possibly rival the late Norman of this franchise... it can't be done... hence it would mean another phony team up... just like Sandman/Venom... apparently you people think you can get away with this for two more films... Electro can team up with vulture/hopgoblin... or Carnage and Venom... or Shocker Rhino and Kingpin.... thats what did in the Batman franchise... team ups after every movie is cheeziness... I think a Sinister 6 would be quite different and its something I am not opposed to... but I am tired of B villain team ups... Venom with Sandman was a joke... an absolute joke... so contrived and trivial... give me a break already... if you people want to pair Mysterio Scorpion Electro Rhino (any combo of the two together) and think you have a movie well then you are dead wrong... B villain + B villain does not equal A villain... adds up to a monstrosity of senseless action and pointless story telling... Lizard/Kraven isn't a team up... that's why a lot of people like it (great story)... Mysterio/Scorpion isn't really a team up (Spidey gets framed... Jameson tries to bring him in once and for all)... thats why I like that plot... Electro and Vulture robbing banks while the new executive who gets fired from Oscorp stumbles on the glider and becomes the Hopgoblin in SM6??? **** no I don't want to see that... no more tag teams robbing banks and trying to kill SPiderman. I understand Vulture and Electro have more potential than that but I can't see them serving as the villains in the finale of this series (they should just be side villains somewhere in 4/5/6). I'd prefer just a buildup to a SInister 6 with the great story lines I mentioned above in between... and believe me... Dock Ock could have more motives beyond "I want to kill SPiderman so let me round up some thugs"... he is the mastermind and can have many more interests... maybe he wants to up start his fusion project... take control of some major assets in Oscorp... establish is own research... he is a more multi dimensional character than electro or Hopgoblin... I think he should be back... Doc Ock (the poster) can back me up on this

 

[Spider-Fan]

When did I say team up?

Using two villains in a movie doesn't mean team up. I am sick of team ups myself. However, I am not opposed to say one villain waiting till Spidey is done fighting one (staying in the background) before making his move to get Spidey. I am not opposed to a villain going after another villain and Spidey getting involed (like they could in a Lizard and Kraven story). Things like that.

Team up was never in my post.

BTW, GREAT idea for a Scorpion and Mysterio movie. That would be a perfect combination, and that plot would make perfect sense. Nice thought.

 

[FaT_tONle]

You said Electro can't carry a film by his own and he can't... but lets face it... the guy is simply a robber and a thug... don't give me the tragic background garbage because I am tired of the sentimental villains... he is a pure thug... so if he is in a film what do we do? Pair him with Vulture or Hopgoblin and expect to have a great movie? I think not sir... and the Mysterio Scorpion thing wasn't my idea... the same guy that first started the Lizard Kraven combo came up with that one too... he knew what he was talking about (forgot his name though) but I can't remember what he had in mind for SM6... I don't want Hopgoblin... I know many of you don't want Ock back along with a SInister 6... please don't mention the C word... as you can see we are still stuck for the main story in SM6... but it makes perfect sense to me so I'll say it again and maybe more of you will jump on the band wagon

SM4: Lizard Kraven
SM5: Mysterio, Scorpion
SM6: Sinister 6: Ock, Mysterio, Electro/Vulture (side villains with previous roles in 4/5), Kraven, and Sandman

Every villain firmly developed... enough action... great story... thats my vision for the next trilogy and I am sticking to it... please make this happen Sony... and keep Avi Arad away before he throws in Carnage somewhere in there

 

[Spider-Fan]

The Sinister Six wouldn't be bad, but introducing new villains that join the SS in the same movie is messy. You'd have to plan for it and make a point NOT to kill your villains. We have Sandman and Ock set, but we would have to make sure Kraven, Mysterio, and if we did Scorpion (since I like that movie idea...he could replace Vulture) don't die. There is 5, who would be six? The only one I could see being introduced same movie and working is Hobgoblin, but he would have to be more the brains and Ock should NEVER take orders. Electro would have no build up, and the Lizard couldn't be reused, so who would be six?

 

[FaT_tONle]

Thats why I think King Pin makes so much sense (just to get back to the thread here)... Electro can be a thug working for King Pin... use some ultimate Electro... maybe it was a botched lab test... we don't always have to use the classic origins... Vulture could be a worker in Oscorp somewhere down the line. Somone who is in charge of the some new equipment. Maybe he is a second piece to the Gargan project. Maybe Toomes was a long time partner with Octavius in the past... Why the hell not? I understand we have to stay true to the comics... but we can't always do that in live action features... Electro and Vulture are still classic villains and are awesome side villains... all the world better than the Rhinos and Shockers... it can work with a few minor changes here and there... these aren't major players to the core of the team... the core is Ock, Mysterio, Sandman, and Kraven who survived and is aiming to kill SPiderman instead of the Lizard. It has cheap elements I understand... but for a grand finale to this franchise, its suitable.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Ock, Mysterio, Sandman, and Kraven I agree would be the mainstays. The other two members I would personally have be Hobgoblin and either Scorpion or Electro (not sure how to introduce him in the movie, but I am sure I could come up with something). At the top of my head, one way I see the SS working is Hobgoblin takes Osborn's technology, forms a team, convinces Ock to join, but I have them at extreme odds with each other. They have a power struggle. Spidey is able to defeat the team when Sandman turns on them (Spider-Man makes Flint see this isn't the way) and the Hobgoblin and Ock fight for control. With the team in shambles, Spidey and Sandman team up to beat Mysterio, Scorpion/Electro, and Kraven as Ock and Hobgoblin battle (with the Sandman somehow getting defeated during the 3 on 2). By the end of this, I have the battle down to Hobgoblin and Spider-Man. Spider-Man then defeats him.

Though, like I said the Sinister Six would have to be well planned.

I know you don't like the idea of the Hobgoblin in a SM movie, but I think he would work very well for a SS movie.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Thats your variation... but I really don't see the need for Hopgoblin at all... just way too much testosterone and fire power for me to go there...

Here's how I would break it down:

SM5 ends with the Ock cliffhanger (think Barbossa at the end of DMC)... I would have another player though not part of the team... some corporate guy... King Pin, some Oscorp Exec, maybe Chameleon (no super powers), heck even Nick Fury in a small but pivotal role, but NO super powers with this particular role... sort of like a Lex Luthor... Fury would be ideal for me if they don't use King Pin... it wouldn't have to be a big role and I think they owe it to fans to have some cross overs that are reasonable just to pay some homage to the marvel universe as a whole... Fury might want to capture SPiderman and carry out experiments on him through the S.H.I.E.L.D. He offers Ock unlimited funding for his fusion project and further bonuses in future research so long as he delivers SPiderman... the plot would have many more elements than just this... Toomes would be a worker for the S.H.I.E.L.D and can smoothly be introduced... Electro could be a prisoner of the S.H.I.E.L.D that is already subject to testing, and is thrown on the team in the last minute... they round up the rest of the three and bam... you got your six... Spidey would have his hands full, but Black Cat would help him out... Cpt Stacy (if still alive) and the NYPD could give SPiderman a hand as well once things get out of hand... still the city is outmatched... once Ock loses control of the team all hope is lost... Spiderman goes to Fury for help... Fury realizes he was at fault but he has another trick up his sleeves... the Spider Slayers... which help turn the tide and defeat the Sinister 6... thats one variation I could see... there are others that can include King Pin but I think this one is probably better.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't want to see Sony option the rights to Fury. I'd rather see SHIELD more involved in the Avengers related stuff. If Sony used him, we would never see that.

Not that crazy about that idea, although it is clearly not that branched out. Aspects of it are good, but others not.

I might try to expand a bit more on my variation and post a more in depth idea a bit later.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Your story has potential... I see your point with Fury and the Avengers... just need to expand on it a bit more... I don't like the idea of doing Hopgoblin in one movie... you have to flesh it out over two if not three movies... that means Kingsley in SM4/5 to begin with... major buildup would be required as you pointed out, and thats not even including Octavius. And you can't get in the way of your main stories... Lizard/Scorpion for 4/5... the writers won't have an easy time with this I'll give you that... but I'll take my chances with a Sinsiter 6 rather than Carnage, or Morlun, or Hopgoblin as a stand out. Plus you still need to throw in Electro unless you are keeping Scorpion alive... but we can't make SM 4/5 without killing any bad guys. I'll try to think of a King Pin S6 version later on... my unfinished script for SM4 hints at all of this... not sure if I am gonna finish it though

 

[Spider-Fan]

Your story has potential... I see your point with Fury and the Avengers... just need to expand on it a bit more... I don't like the idea of doing Hopgoblin in one movie... you have to flesh it out over two if not three movies... that means Kingley in SM4/5 to begin with... major buildup would be required as you pointed out. And you can't get in the way of your main stories... ala Lizard and Scorpion... the writers won't have an easy time with this I'll give you that... but I'll take my chances with a Sinsiter 6 rather than Carnage, or Morlun, or Hopgoblin as a stand out.

Yeah, Kingsley would have to become a side character. Build him up in SM4 and SM5, and then Hobgoblin in SM6. I would just have to figure a way to work him into the story. I am sure it could be done though.

I would rather see an SS story built up to than Carnage or Morlun, also.

 

[Halcohol]

I think that with the recent wake of re-imaginings of characters, putting Kingpin into the Spider-Man franchise could work if done correctly, but as mentioned before I'd like to see a different look from Michael Clarke Duncan's version, more in line with the comics.

 

[FaT_tONle]

But retracting here for a minute just to get back on topic... sort of... I know cross overs have the potential to be a disaster... I also realize its tough getting rights to certain characters controlled by other major studios... but cameo cross overs really can't do much harm... its a homage to the fans... everyone says we can't use King Pin cause he was in Dare Devil... even though we may never see another DD film again... its a ridiculous notion. Would a cameo by Beast in FF2 (rumored before) really kill that film? I don't think so... now I am not advocating extended screen time of Spiderman in an X-men reboot or things of that nature... but could I see Fury or King Pin in a SPiderman flick? Absolutely. The only cross over I really want to see is a World's Finest... then I'll die a happy man

 

[Spider-Fan]

Your story has potential... I see your point with Fury and the Avengers... just need to expand on it a bit more... I don't like the idea of doing Hopgoblin in one movie... you have to flesh it out over two if not three movies... that means Kingsley in SM4/5 to begin with... major buildup would be required as you pointed out, and thats not even including Octavius. And you can't get in the way of your main stories... Lizard/Scorpion for 4/5... the writers won't have an easy time with this I'll give you that... but I'll take my chances with a Sinsiter 6 rather than Carnage, or Morlun, or Hopgoblin as a stand out. Plus you still need to throw in Electro unless you are keeping Scorpion alive... but we can't make SM 4/5 without killing any bad guys. I'll try to think of a King Pin S6 version later on... my unfinished script for SM4 hints at all of this... not sure if I am gonna finish it though

First try:

How about if we see him approach the villains toward the end and recruit them. That would give us a cliffhanger to end each movie. This would keep him in the shadows (much like the early issues of the Hobgoblin), and make the audience wonder what is happening. Like, approach Kraven at the end of Spider-Man 4, and Mysterio at the end of Spider-Man 5 (still undecided on Scorpion on the team). Gives Kingsley an aura of mystery. But he doesn't free them yet. Then, in Spider-Man 6, we can see him approach Sandman and use his daughter to recruit him. Then, he can reveal that Ock is alive (call him the final peice), and gets Ock to join, perhaps by getting the tenticles to take his mind again). If I went the Electro route, we can have Electro be the villain of the first act. He gets recruited shortly after his defeat (he is nothing more than a thug...but feels small in the team). Hobgoblin becomes known when he busts them out of jail. Spider-Man is later drawn out by Hobgoblin (after some sort of team meeting of course). They talk a little, and then the rest of them come in and the Sinister Six battle Spider-Man, and dispatch of him easily (each giving a "remember me" type line, of course). As Peter is captured, he tries to reason with the Sandman and Ock. Asks for their help. Ock doesn't, but Sandman looks conflicted. Hobgoblin commands Ock to finish him, and he gets angry and says something like "I answer to no one". They then argue and fight. Then one of the others goes for the kill on Spidey, and the Sandman stops them. Spidey and Sandman team up, dispatch of them, but Sandman gets defeated in the process (maybe by Electro since it would be harder for Mysterio or Kraven to beat him), who is then taken out by Spidey. Hobgoblin defeats Ock, is about to kill him, when Spider-Man stops him. Now, it is down to them. They have a brutal battle, and Spider-Man wins, and the Hobgoblin seemingly dies (but you don't see him die).

I say one very long sequence is sufficient for the Sinister Six, and having Electro established early in the film develops him. Also, recruiting of Kraven and Mysterio in the other movies gives us interest in Kingsley and saves time spent on recruitment in SM6. Recruiting scenes for Sandman and Ock are sufficient, as they are developed already. One long fight would be about the extent we could do with them because, lets face it, the Sinister Six would be very expensive and doing one long sequence would save a little money.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But retracting here for a minute just to get back on topic... sort of... I know cross overs have the potential to be a disaster... I also realize its tough getting rights to certain characters controlled by other major studios... but cameo cross overs really can't do much harm... its a homage to the fans... everyone says we can't use King Pin cause he was in Dare Devil... even though we may never see another DD film again... its a ridiculous notion. Would a cameo by Beast in FF2 (rumored before) really kill that film? I don't think so... now I am not advocating extended screen time of Spiderman in an X-men reboot or things of that nature... but could I see Fury or King Pin in a SPiderman flick? Absolutely. The only cross over I really want to see is a World's Finest... then I'll die a happy man

If it weren't for the whole issue of rights, I'd say go for it with someone like Fury, but with how it works, I don't want to sacrifice Fury in the Avengers series for an appearance in Spider-Man. Same goes with the Kingpin and DD (a sequel will be made when Marvel gets the rights back...no way they won't make another DD movie themselves, he is one of their more popular characters and more cheaper/sure investments).