Sequels Should Sony Persue Rights to the Kingpin?

[FaT_tONle]

First try:

How about if we see him approach the villains toward the end and recruit them. That would give us a cliffhanger to end each movie. This would keep him in the shadows (much like the early issues of the Hobgoblin), and make the audience wonder what is happening. Like, approach Kraven at the end of Spider-Man 4, and Mysterio at the end of Spider-Man 5 (still undecided on Scorpion on the team). Gives Kingsley an aura of mystery. But he doesn't free them yet. Then, in Spider-Man 6, we can see him approach Sandman and use his daughter to recruit him. Then, he can reveal that Ock is alive (call him the final peice), and gets Ock to join, perhaps by getting the tenticles to take his mind again). If I went the Electro route, we can have Electro be the villain of the first act. He gets recruited shortly after his defeat (he is nothing more than a thug...but feels small in the team). Hobgoblin becomes known when he busts them out of jail. Spider-Man is later drawn out by Hobgoblin (after some sort of team meeting of course). They talk a little, and then the rest of them come in and the Sinister Six battle Spider-Man, and dispatch of him easily (each giving a "remember me" type line, of course). As Peter is captured, he tries to reason with the Sandman and Ock. Asks for their help. Ock doesn't, but Sandman looks conflicted. Hobgoblin commands Ock to finish him, and he gets angry and says something like "I answer to no one". They then argue and fight. Then one of the others goes for the kill on Spidey, and the Sandman stops them. Spidey and Sandman team up, dispatch of them, but Sandman gets defeated in the process (maybe by Electro since it would be harder for Mysterio or Kraven to beat him), who is then taken out by Spidey. Hobgoblin defeats Ock, is about to kill him, when Spider-Man stops him. Now, it is down to them. They have a brutal battle, and Spider-Man wins, and the Hobgoblin seemingly dies (but you don't see him die).

I say one very long sequence is sufficient for the Sinister Six, and having Electro established early in the film develops him. Also, recruiting of Kraven and Mysterio in the other movies gives us interest in Kingsley and saves time spent on recruitment in SM6. Recruiting scenes for Sandman and Ock are sufficient, as they are developed already. One long fight would be about the extent we could do with them because, lets face it, the Sinister Six would be very expensive and doing one long sequence would save a little money.

I got a lot of problems with this route... ofcourse its only a matter a personal taste but we already know that... first of all... what is Kingley's motivation to recruit the team... why the heck would Hopgoblin recruit Octavius... it should be Ock in the shadows recruiting people... I see the take you are going with Hopgoblin... I undertand you want to see him in a film. But don't get caught up in jamming the character into something that might not fit the bill... also... on the villains turning good and helping Spiderman... I can see Sandman becoming good if his daughter dies or something... but no... none of the villains in the Sinsiter Six should turn against the team just because they may have some remorse for Spiderman. Its too childish for me. Spiderman doesn't need side kicks... its one thing for a villain to do what is right... but saving a defeated SPiderman for the sake of saving Spiderman's life alone just doesn't make you a villain to begin with... if there is proper motivation to do what is right... then I don't have a problem with it...

So you want HopGoblin in this... lets cut someone... forget Scorpion... he'd dead in SM5... Kraven... I think he's a keeper... Electro is a decent keeper too... Vulture is expendible... but the key is that power struggle between Otto and the HopGoblin... thats what you need to build up in the trilogy... and it can't be done in one film... the problem I got is that if you are going to feature Lizard in SM4, and Mysterio AND Scorpion in SM5, there is little room to develop that power struggle... you need to cut the story line we've built up in SM5... but then we got no base for the second part... maybe you can cram it all in... but the Hop Goblin and Otto would need significant time in SM5 to really build that story up nicely... thats 4 "A" villains in one movie... its too convoluted... I'd prefer a more minor player for the role... I don't think its a travesty if we never see Hop Goblin on the screen... I could some version of a Goblin in a Ben Reily reboot series many years from now... totally new villains and characters and all... losely related to this series but I really don't see the need for a third Goblin immediately...

 

[Spider-Fan]

I got a lot of problems with this route... ofcourse its only a matter a personal taste but we already know that... first of all... what is Kingley's motivation to recruit the team... why the heck would Hopgoblin recruit Octavius... it should be Ock in the shadows recruiting people... I see the take you are going with Hopgoblin... I undertand you want to see him in a film. But don't get caught up in jamming the character into something that might not fit the bill... also... on the villains turning good and helping Spiderman... I can see Sandman becoming good if his daughter dies or something... but no... none of the villains in the Sinsiter Six should turn against the team just because they may have some remorse for Spiderman. Its too childish for me. Spiderman doesn't need side kicks... its one thing for a villain to do what is right... but saving a defeated SPiderman for the sake of saving Spiderman's life alone just doesn't make you a villain to begin with... if there is proper motivation to do what is right... then I don't have a problem with it...

So you want Hop Goblin in this... lets cut someone... forget Scorpion... he'd dead in SM5... Kraven... I think its a keeper... Electro is a decent keeper too... Vulture is expendible... but the key is that power struggle between Otto and the Hop Goblin... thats what you need to build up in the trilogy... and it can't be done in one film... the problem I got is that if you are going to feature Lizard in SM4, and Mysterio in SM5, there is little room to develop that power struggle... you need to cut the story line we've built up in SM5... but then we got no base for the second part... maybe you can cram it all in... but the Hop Goblin and Otto would need significant time in SM5 to really build that story up nicely... thats 4 A villains in one movie... its too convoluted... I'd prefer a more minor player for the role... I don't think its a travesty if we never see Hop Goblin on the screen... I could some version of a Golbin in a Ben Reily reboot series many years from now... totally new villains and characters and all... losely related to this series but I really don't see the need for a third Goblin

With Ock, I am not sure the movieworld's Ock would recruit people (why I see Hobgoblin more doing this). I am heavily going by what has been presented thus far, and with his good turn in SM2, I don't see him going out and doing this on his own. He took control of the tentacles in SM2. His good side is in control. We need to get Ock's bad side out again. Unless Kingsley gets Ock first, I don't see this Ock forming a team (which is a shame, as Ock is one of the greatest masterminds of the Spidey-verse).

However, if they were to both do this together, you are right, this would need development in other movies. That is why my initial thought is he comes later, but like a hot free agent makes demands upon arrival. Now, why would he recruit Ock? Because he needs a second in command (or as he would tell Ock, a co-leader), and no one else on the team can provide that. Electro and Sandman are firepower, Mysterio provides distraction, and Kraven acts as the snagger. Ock is the field general, keeping them in-line.

As for Sandman's turning on them, that is a homage to what he did in another Sinister Six story. He turned on them, and was turned to glass for it. I show Sandman as reluctantly doing this from the moment he's in (make it his daughter is about to die, and Kingsley says if he helps remove Spider-Man, then the money is daughter needs his for the taking). Spider-Man gets Sandman to turn by saying he will help Marko raise the money if he helps him (I am taking advantage of Spidey not doing that in SM3). Since Sandman wanted no part in this in the first place, Peter reaches him, and he decides to help.

As for what I see Kingsley's motivation being, that is simple. He simply wants Spider-Man out of the way. Every major criminal or gifted one has been defeated by Spider-Man. Instead of going it alone (like they have), he decides to face the problem with some insurance. It may take him time, but it is more profitable in the long run.

I am using the Hobgoblin to form the team because movie Ock doesn't seem to have the desire, and Hobgoblin can be used as a mysterious, in the shadows character.

Is a third goblin necessary? No, but he is a character that can be used to tie these next few movies together, and the rest of the series for that matter. I think this would be one way to incorporate the Sinister Six. Any way you try is difficult, but I could see this method working (I'll keep trying to tweak it, though).

 

[FaT_tONle]

Regardless... Hopgoblin is still the major player in this S6 version... I just think its a bad idea having another Goblin be the main bad guy even its the final movie, he'd still have roles in 4/5. Its goblin over kill. Don't worry about Ock's bad side... I don't buy that he turned good in the end... all he did was destroy his own mess to prevent further casualties... doesn't exactly make him a hero. He can be the same badass that he was for the most of SM2. Make it so that he comes back with complete control of his tentacles rather than it being the other way around... then we can see the true mastermind at work... a villain like Doc shouldn't be someone's pawn. He shouldn't be a Davey Jones who is doing what he is told because someone else has his heart... Ock should be spearheading things and using the other members as pawns. If you are going to bring Ock back and just retain his sentimental side it won't work. And don't you think Sandman and Mysterio alone are enough to create tensions within the team itself... both can challenge Otto and mess the chemistry up... every member has their own motives to begin with... there is really no team to begin with. Otto should be the leader in my eyes. If not, that's why I suggested King Pin as the ring leader. Then again this is just a fundamental difference that we have with the S6... if you want Hopgoblin though... just end SM6 with him as the solo... but that would be an extreme let down for me personally... I would rather see Morlun to be honest... the Goblin's had their time... enough is enough

 

[FaT_tONle]

Then again we don't even need a Sinister 6... I could dig just Morlun or some awesome solo villain that is very different from everything else... you know what could work...

SM4: Lizard/Kraven
SM5: Morlun
SM6: Mysterio/Scorpion/Black Cat (maybe vulture for added action to beef it up)

I honestly think the potential with those two characters (for SM6) is that good that it can work as a finale... we aren't jamming any of the films with ten villains... its nice and simple... write Sandman out... leave Ock dead... don't complicate the sh:t out of it... Raimi likes things simple anyway... plus the classics will be done with... then we can start ressurrecting and rebooting many years from now with a new cast when they make additional sequels.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Regardless... Hopgoblin is still the major player in this S6 version... I just think its a bad idea having another Goblin be the main bad guy even its the final movie, he'd still have roles in 4/5. Its goblin over kill. Don't worry about Ock's bad side... I don't buy that he turned good in the end... all he did was destroy his own mess to prevent further casualties... doesn't exactly make him a hero. He can be the same badass that he was for the most of SM2. Make it so that he comes back with complete control of his tentacles rather than it being the other way around... then we can see the true mastermind at work... a villain like Doc shouldn't be someone's pawn. He shouldn't be a Davey Jones who is doing what he is told because someone else has his heart... Ock should be spearheading things and using the other members as pawns. If you are going to bring Ock back and just retain his sentimental side it won't work. And don't you think Sandman and Mysterio alone are enough to create tensions within the team itself... both can challenge Otto and mess the chemistry up... every member has their own motives to begin with... there is really no team to begin with. Otto should be the leader in my eyes. If not, that's why I suggested King Pin as the ring leader. Then again this is just a fundamental difference that we have with the S6... if you want Hopgoblin though... just end SM6 with him as the solo... but that would be an extreme let down for me personally... I would rather see Morlun to be honest... the Goblin's had their time... enough is enough

I am just pretty much making a way I see the SS working in the context of what we have seen thus far, and whose left (and has been part of the SS in the comics). Even if I had Ock recruited last, I never said he would be a pawn. Ock sees him as leader, Hobgoblin sees himself as leader. I would be counting on this to destroy the team. I wouldn't see Sandman, Kraven, or Electro causing any problems (Electro is thug. Kraven is getting his trophy, and Sandman has a stake). Mysterio maybe could, that is true, but revenge could keep him in check. While a goblin is repetitive, at least this is a new character rather than just a team of villains we already have seen. That is also part of why I have him form the team, but Ock kind of tries to take it from him (since like you said, Ock is nobody's pawn). we have seen similar villains to Hobgoblin, but he is still fresh. I have wanted to see Spider-Man dodge wave after wave of pumpkin bombs on the big screen and I haven't gotten it (razor bats are not the same).

Using the Kingpin to form this team is very TAS and would work, but the problem (avoiding the fact I think he is better suited for DD) I see is the Kingpin's fall may be too sudden. However, if he is still free, the audience gets no closure. It is a fine line.

But like you said, this is just a difference in preference.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Then again we don't even need a Sinister 6... I could dig just Morlun or some awesome solo villain that is very different from everything else... you know what could work...

SM4: Lizard/Kraven
SM5: Morlun
SM6: Mysterio/Scorpion/Black Cat (maybe vulture for added action to beef it up)

I honestly think the potential with those two characters (for SM6) is that good that it can work as a finale... we aren't jamming any of the films with ten villains... its nice and simple... write Sandman out... leave Ock dead... don't complicate the sh:t out of it... Raimi likes things simple anyway... plus the classics will be done with... then we can start ressurrecting and rebooting many years from now with a new cast when they make additional sequels.

The problem I have with that is I hate Morlun. He reminds me of a very bad comic experience (that being The Other). Wouldn't want a whole movie of him. Very bad memories. Plus, I don't want the whole Spider-god crap even mentioned in a movie. I'd sooner see the Jackal than him.

Though you are right, Mysterio and Scorpion could work as a finale (not a BC fan, so I wouldn't care if she was cut out).

 

[FaT_tONle]

Just that it takes a break from what we are accustomed to seeing... get to see a broader more fantastical picture... just a thought but definitely not my first choice... you know maybe they can just have three villains for SM6...

Electro/Vulture (characters setup in the previous films) robbing banks for the most part... just thugs to fill screen time... then the Hopgoblin for the final act... I just can't think of a story to combine any of those one or two villains along with Hopgoblin without doing a S6... just missing that last element

 

[Spider-Fan]

Man, all this talk makes me want to pull out some Hobgoblin stories.

Well, he would have to discover the equipment. After that, I'd say maybe he watches Spider-Man fight the others (to get a feel for his fighting style). Then when the Hobgoblin makes himself known, and Spider-Man fights him, the Hobgoblin seems like he is one step ahead of him. Spider-Man then looks into who he is, and where the equipment is, and uses this knowledge to surprise him and defeat him.

That is the best I got on no sleep (I am such an insomniac).

 

[FaT_tONle]

I am just pretty much making a way I see the SS working in the context of what we have seen thus far, and whose left (and has been part of the SS in the comics). Even if I had Ock recruited last, I never said he would be a pawn. Ock sees him as leader, Hobgoblin sees himself as leader. I would be counting on this to destroy the team. I wouldn't see Sandman, Kraven, or Electro causing any problems (Electro is thug. Kraven is getting his trophy, and Sandman has a stake). Mysterio maybe could, that is true, but revenge could keep him in check. While a goblin is repetitive, at least this is a new character rather than just a team of villains we already have seen. That is also part of why I have him form the team, but Ock kind of tries to take it from him (since like you said, Ock is nobody's pawn). we have seen similar villains to Hobgoblin, but he is still fresh. I have wanted to see Spider-Man dodge wave after wave of pumpkin bombs on the big screen and I haven't gotten it (razor bats are not the same).

Using the Kingpin to form this team is very TAS and would work, but the problem (avoiding the fact I think he is better suited for DD) I see is the Kingpin's fall may be too sudden. However, if he is still free, the audience gets no closure. It is a fine line.

But like you said, this is just a difference in preference.

I can see it dude really... let Kingsley be a background player who obsesses about the original Goblin... its a good idea... I just hope it doesn't get too convoluted... but again you have to find a way to reintroduce Ock... he can't just appear and join the team for kicks... so we still need an explanation for his return... and we need to build that rivialry... Maybe Kingsley gets control of Oscorp in SM5 and hires Octavius somewhere in the middle to be his right hand man (wishful thinking no?) It actually works better if they can't get King Pin. I know Raimi wanted Vulture in SM2 so I hope he gets a chance to do him... maybe Kraven dies in SM4... you can't keep everyone alive if Conners survives... lets keep in mind we need room for love interests and supporting characters too... I am coming around to your ideas though... but again if they can avoid this by getting King Pin they should and I am all for that

 

[Spider-Fan]

I can see it dude really... let Kingsley be a background player who obsesses about the original Goblin... its a good idea... I just hope it doesn't get too convoluted... but again you have to find a way to reintroduce Ock... he can't just appear and join the team for kicks... so we still need an explanation for his return... and we need to build that rivialry... Maybe Kingsley gets control of Oscorp in SM5 and hires Octavius somewhere in the middle to be his right hand man (wishful thinking no?) It actually works better if they can't get King Pin. I know Raimi wanted Vulture in SM2 so I hope he gets a chance to do him... maybe Kraven dies in SM4... you can't keep everyone alive if Conners survives... lets keep in mind we need room for love interests and supporting characters too... I am coming around to your ideas though

Right now the key is to link Ock and Hobgoblin successfully and build on the relationship, I agree. With all that is involved in a movie (the supporting cast getting time, the current story), it is tough. While I wouldn't want Kingsley to run Oscorp, it would be one way to do it, as he would have the tools to make someone like a Vulture (thus making it easy to get recruits while not spending too much time on getting them recruited), and give Ock an opportunity to use his scientific knowledge.

Kingpin would definately be an easier answer, but I think doing this arc right would turn out better.

EDIT - Actually, maybe he would need Ock to remake the Goblin Formula. He is no scientist, but he has the gadgets and the resources of Osborn at his disposal. Have all the ones in Norman's goblin lair destroyed. He pays Ock to make it again for him (planning on using his new powers to squash Ock).

 

[FaT_tONle]

Plus Ock was originally tied to Oscorp in SM2... maybe he wants a chance to redeem himself... this has to happen somewhere in SM5... second/third Act ish... actually you have room to set something up in SM4... I mean we only have Lizard/Kraven... you can setup Beck and have Mysterio in the first Act of SM5 to save time... or more preferably... you can leave Ock's fate even more uncertain after SM4... make it almost obvious that he is still alive... hired in the middle of SM5 by the Hopgoblin... Kingsley could be a major player throughout... I still think its goblin overkill but there is no way else to do it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Plus Ock was originally tied to Oscorp in SM2... maybe he wants a chance to redeem himself... this has to happen somewhere in SM5... second/third Act ish... actually you have room to set something up in SM4... I mean we only have Lizard/Kraven... you can setup Beck and have Mysterio in the first Act of SM5 to save time... or more preferably... you can leave Ock's fate even more uncertain after SM4... make it almost obvious that he is still alive... hired in the middle of SM5 by the Hopgoblin... Kingsley could be a major player throughout... I still think its goblin overkill but there is no way else to do it.

True, Harry did fund his project. SM5 shouldn't be cramming this in, so we would have to start in SM4. I posted the idea above in an efit of maybe he gets Ock and works on the group together, but also has Ock create the goblin formula for him (why he decides to hire him), then the co-form the team (of course with disagreements). This kind of science may not be Ock's expertise, that is why i'd give him something to work with like Norman's notes on the formula. Now, it is just balancing what would occur over the three movies.

Might be goblin overkill, but this is a concept that could work.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Maybe Oscorp can be tied into the Conner's formula as well... Ock shouldn't be back in SM4 though... maybe at the very end but it would be too soon... you know instead have some whack job take over as an interim CEO of Oscorp... I used Justin Hammers in my little script... Kingsley can be a guy working under Hammers while he does his goblin research behind closed doors... he still has a high position though... then Oscorp helps fund the lizard experiment just to make everything related... Hammers gets fired after the Lizard goes beserk... Kingsley takes over Oscorp... Hires Ock in the middle of SM5 as mentioned above. Not too jam packed... everything is connecting... story keeps rolling as the pieces fall into place... God Damn I'm good... Sony better be reading I hope

 

[Spiderine]

You all are advocating for a sinister six. Who the hell is going to help Spiderman. Without Harry Sandman and Venom would have ended this francise for good. Six villains against our one hero. They won't be able to balance that many villains. It will become one cheesy ass caper of Spiderman against all these villains. Spiderman is having a hard enough time in one on one matchups let alone six. Why would the great arrogant Doc Ock need to recruit a team knowing very well he could go after Spidey himself. Its not needed. Kingpin does exactly what his character implies. He is powerful and influential in the business and underworld and employs people to enforce his bidding. He does not need a sinister six either to do this. These superpowered villains such as Scorpion or Electro don't necessarily have to work for Kingpin either. It can be an alliance of convenience with both sides simply out for their own plans with the goal of removing the pesty Spiderman. Electro and Scorpion would not need to fear Kingpin they are superpowered for crying out loud. It could work. Leave the sinister six for the comics and Saturday morning toons.

 

[FaT_tONle]

You all are advocating for a sinister six. Who the hell is going to help Spiderman. Without Harry Sandman and Venom would have ended this francise for good. Six villains against our one hero. They won't be able to balance that many villains. It will become one cheesy ass caper of Spiderman against all these villains. Spiderman is having a hard enough time in one on one matchups let alone six. Why would the great arrogant Doc Ock need to recruit a team knowing very well he could go after Spidey himself. Its not needed. Kingpin does exactly what his character implies. He is powerful and influential in the business and underworld and employs people to enforce his bidding. He does not need a sinister six either to do this. These superpowered villains such as Scorpion or Electro don't necessarily have to work for Kingpin either. It can be an alliance of convenience with both sides simply out for their own plans with the goal of removing the pesty Spiderman. Electro and Scorpion would not need to fear Kingpin they are superpowered for crying out loud. It could work. Leave the sinister six for the comics and Saturday morning toons.

I am not disagreeing here... but the thing is there will be instability in the S6 to begin with... its not out of the question for members to turn on one another... I like King Pin though not because of a S6... he could have his own agenda in every film and his own thugs appearing in each film here on out... like a Falcone or Maroni or Lex Luthor to a lesser scale... but my question is what is the buildup to SM6... you can't just have Hopgoblin be the end guy... its gotto be big... bigger than SM3 in scale... a combo villain won't work either... Electro Hopgoblin... or Vulture Hopgolin... those really aren't villains you'd think of as arch rivals... Octopus can be that guy... and keep in mind... I doubt the only goal of the S6 will be "okay lets kill SPiderman"... if Ock is the ring leader I am sure he would have a much broader picture to the grand scheme of things. Maybe Octavius tries to take over Oscorp and in response Oscorp builds some version of the Spider Slayers to counter act this. Hence a S6 may have many adversaries on top of worrying about civil war between its own members... you got Black Cat... that can canel out a guy like Kraven.... how much of a threat can Mysterio and Vulture be... even for the NYPD. John Jameson can step in and be an unlikely hero, anything is possible. And what if ELectro, Sandman, Hopgoblin (any two) turn againts Octopus... the odds slowly get better... its not out of the realm. I just don't see villains like Electro and Hopgoblin carrying a series finale for SM6. They are B+ villains but even the two of them won't be enough... Its not enough fire power. And you don't get that arch nemesis/rivalry type feel even with a guy like Hopgoblin. And the story behind those villians is either weak or redundant... and please spare me Maximum Carnage

 

[Anti-Venom]

No Kingpin. Not worth it. Even if he wasn't in Daredevil, there are several other villains I would rather see.

 

[GoldGoblin]

Kingpin was an awesome villain in TAS,so why wouldn't he be in the movie.

 

[Matt]

I'm mixed. It would be very difficult for the film makers to do such a drastic change in theme (Spider-Man going from fighting super villians to taking on a glorified mafia). I'm just not sure it would work in the universe that Raimi has established.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Yeah but I want to see villains with actual brains more so than biceps... that means Mysterio, Octavius returning (and done right this time), and maybe chameleon... and if you feel that way and want a brain type villain... Kingpin is a no brainer... but until they get the rights its obviously not gonna happen... but they should put some offers on the table rather than just letting it go without even inquiring about it

 

[Spiderine]

Unfortunately you are right. Until they pursue the rights it doesn't mean much.

 

[Spiderine]

Kingpin was an awesome villain in TAS,so why wouldn't he be in the movie.

On point.

 

[Ring Deacon]

The Kingpin would be a great addition to the movie spiderman rouge gallery. Sony should just pay whatever they need to, to get the rights.

 

[Web-Head408]

Kingpin was an awesome villain in TAS,so why wouldn't he be in the movie.

exactly.

 

[Spiderine]

I'm mixed. It would be very difficult for the film makers to do such a drastic change in theme (Spider-Man going from fighting super villians to taking on a glorified mafia). I'm just not sure it would work in the universe that Raimi has established.

once we get beyond Lizard and Kraven its something to think about. If we were not to get repeat villains that we have already seen, Could the likes of Electro maybe Scorpion carry it on.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I'm in the middle here. I mean it wouldn't be bad to see Him in a Spidey Film. But I do think we should see actual Villians with Super powers. I mean If they are going to use the Sinister Six in Spidey6 then I think they should introduce the Villians befor Spidey6. That way we could have the Villians be introduced befor they team up to tackle Spidey indivually like in the first Issue with the Sinister Six. That is one of the reasons I don't think Kingpin is VERY nessicary for a Spidey Film.