The Dark Knight Should they show Joker's origin (or backstory) or not?

[Motown Marvel]

Why?

The character survived 10 years as the biggest and creepiest Batman villain without any such moment being known - does that moment really need to be established for the character to make sense?

does it need to happen for the character to make sense? no. but hell, by that rationale, it was a while in the comics before batman had an origin and the story of his parents being shot. he just existed. but i dont think anyone would tell you its a good idea to have a batman origin film without that part of his story being played out.

i feel, having the acid bath scene between joker and batman greatly enriches their story and relationship. you say that he existed successfully before that part of his story was told. but do you feel that part of his story diminishes the character? do you feel that part of his story makes him more interesting? or does that part of his story have no affect on you?

in the end: nolan and crew CANNOT be making decisions based on the decisions made in B89. thats just bad film making. they need to make decisions based on whats best for THIS film. and, in my opinion, any story thats telling the origin of the joker must include batman and the acid bath.

 

[Agentsands77]

but do you feel that part of his story diminishes the character?

Somewhat, yes. Because it does effectively nail down an element of how the Joker came to be. I would prefer it that the Joker was given no conclusive start whatsoever, that he just appears on the scene with no identity and only speculation as to why he looks as he does and why he acts as he does.

That said, if it's done, I won't mind it too much as long as we don't get a detailed and conclusive picture of who the guy was before the chemical bath. I'll be interested to see how this all plays out, though, considering the Joker was already established at the end of BEGINS. I just don't understand how the classic origin could play out given that constraint.

I get the impression that we'll get a very unique spin on the Joker's beginnings in THE DARK KNIGHT.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Somewhat, yes. Because it does effectively nail down an element of how the Joker came to be. I would prefer it that the Joker was given no conclusive start whatsoever, that he just appears on the scene with no identity and only speculation as to why he looks as he does and why he acts as he does.

That said, if it's done, I won't mind it too much as long as we don't get a detailed and conclusive picture of who the guy was before the chemical bath. I'll be interested to see how this all plays out, though, considering the Joker was already established at the end of BEGINS. I just don't understand how the classic origin could play out given that constraint.

I get the impression that we'll get a very unique spin on the Joker's beginnings in THE DARK KNIGHT.

im just of the philosophy that a hero is only as good as his villain. and in the case of the joker, we're not just talking about another villain...we're talking about an arch-nemisis. which makes him all the more important.

now, as i said before, i dont expect a detailed background and origin, nor do i think its necessary. but i do feel, the particular moment of the acid bath is vital to the character and his relationshp with batman. because these characters have a very unique relationship in the sense the origins of the arch nemisis are directly tied to the hero, which opens up so many great possibilites for story, themes, and characterizations.

the story of bruce's parents being shot has been told a hundred times in the comics, and also told in the animated series, and never has it ever caused me to think of it as a re-tread of B89. and i think the same holds true for the acid bath. its just how its suppose to be, you know?

also, it would seem, you cant just have a guy show up with bleached skin and green hair and be a sociopathic killer without some sort of explanation. and when you display the explanation you can either do it the right way or the wrong way. and to me, anything other than the acid bath is the wrong way. and i do believe it can be done appropriately despite how batman begins ended (i have a way, but im not getting into it now)...and im also fully confident that nolan can do it without it feeling like a re-tread of B89.

but thats just all my opinion, i've said almost all i've had to say on the topic, and im going to bed. but i thank you for the contstructive and mature debate on the topic...its not something that happens often in these forums.

 

[Nepenthes]

A tragedy in Jokers past is integral to portaying the character and his yin yang thing with Batman. Completelty mysterious charcters also make for more boring villains imo.

Of course the Jokers tragedy can be left vague. Of course he should remain mysterious.

The key would be to have Batman himself acknowledge that the Jokers past is a mystery despite any clues we see (flashbacks, whatver). That leaves it in no uncertain terms for the audience, but they still have something to go on.

Agentsands, there ARE ways to fit the Jokers event into BB. Broken pipes, Asylum antics, Scarecrows chemicals, Falconios removal as head of the mob...etc.

 

[Beelze]

In "The Killing Joke", Joker was apparently not even sure what had happened himself. We got treated to a backstory in it, but like Joker said, he'd prefer multiple choice! So, if they do go with flashbacks, it'd be interesting if they were incoherent, as if they told multiple stories, all different from another, and all incomplete.

That said, I think I want some more flashbacks from Bruce's past in this one, and I think that perhaps Batman should be the only one with a flashback license. IMO, it's kinda hard to make flashbacks fit in well, and it's more acceptable to allow it when it involves the main character.

Actually, I don't even really like flashbacks. Sure, they are good for showing important events without messing up the pacing, but I think it's more of an accomplishment to do as well without using them. Anyway, it was a decision Goyer/Nolan went with, and giving up on it now would be a bad move, because I think there should be some consistency in the narrative, and as flashbacks were prominent in Begins they should have a place in TDK.

 

[strider]

I dont want the Joker to be over exposed in TDK. Its just that simple. Not to much Batman and not much Joker. Balance the plot and we'll have a great movie in general and possibly an award winner.

 

[Catman]

Like I said before they should just keep it simple. Just say that the Joker was a former mob hit man who got screwed at the narrows.

 

[Cinemaman]

As I think, they should use there some flashbacks to explain how he became Joker.

It should be just one or two short flashback scenes, nothing special. And I don''t want the whole movie to be about the question, who Joker really is. It would take too much attention like the same happened in B89 (and that hurted the movie).

But i also don't want Joker to be villian without any story. It doesn't make sense and it will make Joker look like another supervillian from comics without any sense (like those bad guys from power Rangers).

So I think there should just flashback scenes with Joker getting into acid.

 

[Agentsands77]

A tragedy in Jokers past is integral to portaying the character and his yin yang thing with Batman.

It depends if you go with the whole ying-yang thing. I'm not particularly fond of that. I've always preferred the gangster origin. The villain's gallery is full of tragic villains that echo Batman's choices (BEGINS even established Ra's al Ghul as that), but I think the Joker has the opportunity to standalone as a character who's not just another product of a tragic circumstance. He is what he is.

Completelty mysterious charcters also make for more boring villains imo.

I understand that the Joker's past will have to be explored in some detail at some point or another (audiences would demand as much).

The key would be to have Batman himself acknowledge that the Jokers past is a mystery despite any clues we see (flashbacks, whatver). That leaves it in no uncertain terms for the audience, but they still have something to go on.

That's a good way to go about it. I just want uncertainty to be left in the equation. I don't particularly care if I know the "how" of Joker, I just don't really want to know his past in exact detail.

There are plenty of origin-like tellings for the Joker that I could be perfectly happy with. I loved how the background of the Joker became a story element for MASK OF THE PHANTASM, and I never felt like it limited the character because of how vague it was. I felt the same way about the Alex Ross/Paul Dini origin story.

Agentsands, there ARE ways to fit the Jokers event into BB. Broken pipes, Asylum antics, Scarecrows chemicals, Falconios removal as head of the mob...etc.

Sure, there are ways to fit *a* Joker origin into BEGINS (and all of the things you suggested are good ideas - I'd like to see things like that used, rather than rehashing the BATMAN 1989 scene. I simply meant they can't fit the "Batman chases guy who falls into chemical vat" scene in there.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I think a chemical bath origin can be hinted at (perhaps when he's in custody, the doctors could indicate in dialogue that they believe his skin condition is from chemical scarring), but personally, I don't want to see a scene where Batman drops him in. It echoes BATMAN 1989 far too much and it's time for something new.

And not to mention, the Joker seems to begin his career as BEGINS ends. Batman wouldn't have had any part of his origin if that was the case, unless the Joker was somehow born in the chaos of the Narrows debacle.

The Joker was a bad guy before he actually became The Joker. And in '89 he uses a deck of cards as his trademark before he becomes the Joker, so thats not necessarily true.

 

[Rynan]

The Joker was a bad guy before he actually became The Joker. And in '89 he uses a deck of cards as his trademark before he becomes the Joker, so thats not necessarily true.

Yes, but Gordon said it was a "theatrical" crook. It wasn't a mob hit or normal robbery. This was something new, which is why he brought it to Batman's attention.

 

[Agentsands77]

Yes, but Gordon said it was a "theatrical" crook. It wasn't a mob hit or normal robbery. This was something new, which is why he brought it to Batman's attention.

Exactly. When Gordon says, "He has a taste for theatrics, like you" he's not just meaning the guy leaves a calling card. He's indicating that this guy is above and beyond what they've seen before. The Joker has arrived.

 

[Motown Marvel]

I simply meant they can't fit the "Batman chases guy who falls into chemical vat" scene in there.

Exactly. When Gordon says, "He has a taste for theatrics, like you" he's not just meaning the guy leaves a calling card. He's indicating that this guy is above and beyond what they've seen before. The Joker has arrived.

well, unless the "theatrics" is in regards to the red hood gang (guy dressing up in a red hood and tux), a gang who perhaps uses the joker card as a calling card. so batman tracks these guys down, chases them into a chemical plant, the rest is comic book history.

thats how i'd go about it....

 

[StorminNorman]

why would the RED HOOD gang use a Joker calling card?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Didn't we once hear that there would be a Joker origin, and that Joker himself wouldn't show until 30-45 minutes into the movie?

 

[Motown Marvel]

why would the RED HOOD gang use a Joker calling card?

why would anyone use a calling card? its to mark their crime. if they get away with a crime, the joke is on the cops for not being able to stop them. if your gonna use a calling card, you gotta use something...why not a joker card?

plus, it would foreshadow the fate of the joker.

 

[Agentsands77]

Didn't we once hear that there would be a Joker origin, and that Joker himself wouldn't show until 30-45 minutes into the movie?

Sure, but none of the rumors we've heard to this point seem really accurate, unless the comments have come straight from Nolan and co.

plus, it would foreshadow the fate of the joker.

The Joker card being part of the persona before the transformation is territory BATMAN 1989 already covered. I'm not interested in seeing that again.

Futhermore, the focus of Gordon's comments were on a single man. There was no indication of a gang.

 

[Eros]

we will probblay get a vague explanton of Joker "Backround". I mean in se7en, we new almost next to nothing about Kevin spaceys chracter/the killer.

 

[Motown Marvel]

The Joker card being part of the persona before the transformation is territory BATMAN 1989 already covered. I'm not interested in seeing that again.

its not like it needs to be some featured prop in the film...its just there. no big deal.

Futhermore, the focus of Gordon's comments were on a single man. There was no indication of a gang.

for all they know its a single man. the gang hangs back, while they send the new guy (in the red hood), to do what needs to be done as a sort of initiation.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Sure, but none of the rumors we've heard to this point seem really accurate, unless the comments have come straight from Nolan and co.

True, but what's the point in voting on something we have no control over? Que sera, sera.

The Joker card being part of the persona before the transformation is territory BATMAN 1989 already covered. I'm not interested in seeing that again.

Futhermore, the focus of Gordon's comments were on a single man. There was no indication of a gang.

I'm definitely siding with you on this one.

 

[Morgoth]

I think they should show it. Maybe in flash backs, even if it's not so much everything like him being a failed comedian or anything like that, but show him as the red hood and falling into the chemicals. And I don't expect him to wear that big red helmet, but maybe something like Jason Todd wore, or just something more simple. I don't expect much out of the lack of imagination Nolan has. After all he didn't even want the scarecrow to wear his mask.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I think they should show it. Maybe in flash backs, even if it's not so much everything like him being a failed comedian or anything like that, but show him as the red hood and falling into the chemicals. And I don't expect him to wear that big red helmet, but maybe something like Jason Todd wore, or just something more simple. I don't expect much out of the lack of imagination Nolan has. After all he didn't even want the scarecrow to wear his mask.

And once again, Melkor, you arrive to spread the seeds of discord among the harmony we create.

Do not confuse Nolan's intentions for Begins with a lack of imagination. Surely even you must understand that he wanted the FIRST movie to take place in a fairly normal world? Surely too you must have the wit to see that the events of Begins have laid the foundation for a new tune, with all the strange things we expect to see in Batman's world.

Sure you understand this, do you not? For even you, who are the voice of doubt, were not made brainless; as without brains you could not perform that function for which you were made, Melkor: to keep the rest of us honest.

Now -- back to the shadows with you. Go on.

 

[Agentsands77]

After all he didn't even want the scarecrow to wear his mask.

You misunderstood what those comments were about. Nolan did want Scarecrow to wear his mask. He just wanted Goyer to come up for an actual reason why it would be there.

 

[Kritish]

There's simply no need, first off nobody falls into a vat of anything and walks out with green hair and red lips.
I think the Joker should should merely have super white skin and black hair, he can add lip stick or whatever the hell he wants.

 

[Motown Marvel]

There's simply no need, first off nobody falls into a vat of anything and walks out with green hair and red lips.
I think the Joker should should merely have super white skin and black hair, he can add lip stick or whatever the hell he wants.

and second off, no billionaire kid ever watches his parents get killed in front of him and grows up to dress like a bat to wage a war on crime.

nolan may be rooting things in reality, but a time comes, given the material, that a suspension of disbelief is necessary.