Superman Returns Simple Test Dummy: Sans Routh, which suit is "stronger"?

[JamalYIgle]

We never see Superman wearing his boots and cape along with his work clothes, but it's always the traditional iconic image of him ripping open his shirt to reveal the suit that we know he at least has that portion of it underneath.

So what's the difference? He's wearing collared shirts, even the way the new suit is cut, you'd never see the collar of the suit until he unbuttons his shirt?
Don't you think they thought of that?

 

[Wushuboy]

Really? Look at how the cape wraps around his shoulders, the size of the S, the height and cut of the boots. The problem is your so stuck on a neckline which is going to change and letting that get in the way of enjoying the movie.

You assume i wont enjoy it. I'll give it a chance and see how it goes. that doesnt mean I cant argue the costume from the design perspective. I loved batman begins but wasnt too fond of the suit so dont be so quick to tell me that i wont enjoy the movie because i dont agree with the design choices.

 

[JamalYIgle]

You seem to be fighting pretty hard for something that's always been up for interpretation.

 

[Spare-Flair]

Really? Look at how the cape wraps around his shoulders, the size of the S, the height and cut of the boots. The problem is your so stuck on a neckline which is going to change and letting that get in the way of enjoying the movie.

Yes, it will get in the way of me enjoying the movie. That's the problem! Saying "oh well, what's done is done" is not an option. This is going to ruin the movie for me and already has. Also Curt Swan's "S" is not small. If you want a small S, you need to goto the 30s and 40s which Singer has quoted to be part of his inspiration. Hey look, it's 1938 Superman and check out the cape.

 

[Spare-Flair]

You seem to be fighting pretty hard for something that's always been up for interpretation.

No, it's not at all up for interpretation. The cape attachment is one of the things about Superman that really hasn't changed at all since he was created. Superman is almost 70 years old and aside from a change in the symbols (regular S on Black Shield) and the boots (roman style sandle straps on blue tights), the attachment has almost always been the same. Yet Singer has gone and made his own thing in contrast to 70 years of history and some of us just can't stand it.

 

[JamalYIgle]

No, it's not at all up for interpretation. The cape attachment is one of the things about Superman that really hasn't changed at all since he was created. Superman is almost 70 years old and aside from a change in the symbols (regular S on Black Shield) and the boots (roman style sandle straps on blue tights), the attachment has almost always been the same. Yet Singer has gone and made his own thing in contrast to 70 years of history and some of us just can't stand it.

And yet the suit is being changed in the comics as well as it has always changed.

 

[Wushuboy]

And yet the suit is being changed in the comics as well as it has always changed.

Ill put it in pictures so you can see since we're both artists. What's changed has not been the straight neckline but how much cape the artists gives superman and where they attach it. The less cape around the shoulders they give (alex ross, jim lee) the more of his traps we see.. the more cape they give him and the more they bunch it up (pete woods, andy kubert) the less of his traps we see making it LOOK like a tight neckline. The cape makes it a tight neckline NOT the blue suit itself. Superman's cape has never been attached at the side of his neck as in the singer suit. Im not even going to cal lit the Routh suit anymore since he had nothing to do with it.

And you seem to be defending pretty hard a change that's never been part of the character. It's not based on some new design theory or whatever you may think either.

It's like sesame street.. which of the followign doesnt look like the others? haha

BTW Swan's height on the boots is almost right below the knee.. much higher than the ones on the singer costume which begin about half way down the shin.. maybe just a tab above but no where as high as Swan has them.

 

[gdw]

It can't be done taht way, because it will never be straight. Again what is done on paper can't always be done live action. Still, I like the Mingenbach redesign, it has a very retro Superman feel following new design theory.

LMAO, I'm not talking use a level straight, But a straight cut, not a round, up as close to his neck as possible, one like they have.

 

[gdw]

Really? Look at how the cape wraps around his shoulders, the size of the S, the height and cut of the boots. The problem is your so stuck on a neckline which is going to change and letting that get in the way of enjoying the movie.

What are you talking about, trhe cape itself is the exact antisithis of the SR cape with the way it hangs and comes off the neck, and the boots are almost as high as Ross', \S/ is still much bigger, near Reeve size.

What are you smoking?

The big problem with the neckline and the way the cape is attached is that it simply does not look heroic in the slightest, and THAT is how it can very easily stop some from enjoying the film. Superman just doesn't have as commanding a presence as he should. You take all of the pics of Routh that do not look that great, and change the neckline and cape, and they are greatly improved and so much more heroic.

 

[gdw]

Yes, it will get in the way of me enjoying the movie. That's the problem! Saying "oh well, what's done is done" is not an option. This is going to ruin the movie for me and already has. Also Curt Swan's "S" is not small. If you want a small S, you need to goto the 30s and 40s which Singer has quoted to be part of his inspiration. Hey look, it's 1938 Superman and check out the cape.

Yeah and that's the type of cape attachment singer said he wanted to get away from. He said he did not want a eak flimsy looking cape attachment. Sadly that is exactly what he got.

 

[bsquad]

You take all of the pics of Routh that do not look that great, and change the neckline and cape, and they are greatly improved and so much more heroic.

dude...its a collar

 

[Wilde]

Honestly, I really don't mind the new neckline and cape attachment. Yes, it is a change from the more well known open neckline, but I don't think it is a serious problem. I actually really like how it looks.

However, I can understand why some of you have issues with the design.

Even though I like how the new suit looks, for the sake of the arguement, here are a couple quick manips that show a more traditional neckline and cape attachment:

Does it make a difference? Sure.

Some of you may prefer the more traditional design, but honestly, is the new tighter neckline so incredibly terrible, that it could actually ruin the whole movie for you?

I hope not.

 

[Wushuboy]

dude...its a collar

dude.. would you have liked this too? it's just a collar afterall

 

[Wilde]

dude.. would you have liked this too? it's just a collar afterall

Actually, you changed a lot more than the collar....

But see, THAT is an example of extreme changes to the suit. If the suit looked like that, I could see how it could ruin the movie for people!

 

[Spare-Flair]

Yeah and that's the type of cape attachment singer said he wanted to get away from. He said he did not want a eak flimsy looking cape attachment. Sadly that is exactly what he got.

He tried to fix a "weak and flimsy" cape attachment and instead created an entire weak and flimsy Superhero. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

 

[Spare-Flair]

dude...its a collar

dude, it's Superman's collar. The clothes make the man (if the man isn't Christopher Reeve). Routh could have used some help from the costume to help his neck.

this seems to work though for some reason...

 

[bsquad]

dude.. would you have liked this too? it's just a collar afterall

well that's actually more than a collar you changed, and that's a ridiculous change compared to what the suit actually looks like . your just being over dramatic man

 

[bsquad]

dude, it's Superman's collar. The clothes make the man (if the man isn't Christopher Reeve).

Well yeah its Superman's collar but the collar does not make him Superman, and i'm sorry to say does not make a person less or more heroic

 

[Spare-Flair]

Well yeah its Superman's collar but the collar does not make him Superman, and i'm sorry to say does not make a person less or more heroic

For many of us, it does. It's not just a collar. It's not just an insignificant thing that doesn't make a difference. It makes a world of difference... Because the devil is in the details.

There is a world of difference between this (yes sparklies and ugly suit)

and this

(yes I know, ignore the hair. This is an real untouched image, a test shot probably after he had been flying and the wind machine puffed up his hair).

Singer got everything better, the plastic S doens't warp. The darker leather cape and boots. The modern material all screams quality. But that little detail of the neck attachment seems a senseless thing.

 

[bsquad]

if you say so but to me:its just a collar

 

[Wushuboy]

Actually, you changed a lot more than the collar....

But see, THAT is an example of extreme changes to the suit. If the suit looked like that, I could see how it could ruin the movie for people!

well that's actually more than a collar you changed, and that's a ridiculous change compared to what the suit actually looks like . your just being over dramatic man

Actually i didnt make that manip. someone else did all in good fun. How do you signify what is extreme and what is not? to some the tight neckline is an extreme change because it's NEVER appeared in the comics. whether you want to believe it or not the neckline and cape attachment is one of the defining points of superman's costume. I think most people would agree that the tight round neckline is a departure from what's been established in the comics and there's really no good reason for it o ther than bad design and change for the sake of change.

singer said that his superman is supposed to come out of everyone's collective conscienceness but i doubt there's anyone who had the image of a superman with a tight round neckline, dark muted colors, S on the belt in their mind before they saw the singer rendition.

Perhaps some people are just so overly happy to have a superman movie that they refuse to see ANYTHING wrong with the production and as a result are very quick to defend all aspects of the production. I loved the Reeve movies but even they had their bad points. So I'm not some highly devoted rabid Reeve fan even though I feel he's been the most accurate live action superman to date. Routh has much to live up to and singer's costume choices just make it difficult to see him as superman. His acting will have to win me over because the costume certainly hasnt.

 

[gdw]

For all those who say" It's just a collar" well it's just a cape, why not make it have a hood, tiny change, or make it really short?

Sme thing, it is simply about the heroic look of something. It is not about the collar, but what the collar does to the cape.

The shoulders and neck are a very important part of ceating a heroic look. Again, I refer you to almost every heroic incarnation in history, particularly those with capes. The cape is made to accentuate the broad appearance of the shoulders and neck, AND the traps coming from the neck.

You can show just that area of a person and very clearly establish that they are ment to look heroic, and show the rest and it will just look like a person in good shape.

But if you just look at that area on the SR costume, it is simply NOT heroic. Just looks like a cape tucked into a shirt. It actually takes away from Rouths shoulders and neck rather than accetuating them like it is ment too.

So no, it is NOT just a collar. Not when there's a cape attached to it.

the only way that collars like that work with capes are when the cape does not attache right to the collar. OR the cape is more of a cloak, and wraps right around to the front, ala dracula. Again, in this case, it all comes to gether to still not create, in any way, a heroic look, but rather a mysterious one.

The only other times that collars like this work is when the cape attaches some where else, like Cpt. Marvel, or a cape more like Batman's, where he has no neck or anything showing, but the cape still comes down making itself a notable part of the costume in the front. Not just this tough of fabric peaking up at the top.

 

[gdw]

See now this actually showcases the cape withi the design and apperance of the suit. It is like it actually comes up and grabs onto him, wrapping over his shoulders almost.

Where as this looks like it is just clinging there, like it is just hooked on. Similar to a towel hanging on a hook, rather then actually dramatically hanging like a cape.

 

[gdw]

So basically, as you can see with the Routh pic, he may as well not even have a cape there. It's just a touch of red peaking over the top, where as with the other design the cape is actually a part of the look and the suit.

THAT is why capes are attached the way they are. They are ment to be showcased as a part of the suit, even when they aren't flaping out behind them, so even when you just focus on their upper torso and head, you KNOW what it is and that they have a presence.

They truely ad that presence. It would make a huge difference for al those who think that Routh DOESN'T have a commanding presence.

 

[gdw]

They were going the right way with the cape in the initial design. Sure it was bad for Superman, but it gave that impresive regal look to the cape: And this still had the tighter collar, but the cape was not in it so it didn't choke off the cape.