Well then, it looks like I'm gonna have another go at this Guardball thing
I think this is my second go at it.
The Guard said:
Then what movies were you watching? You do realize, that when the delegates at the UN conference have their "backs against the wall", she risks her life to take on Magneto and his followers, and uses her powers to save their lives, right? Whose corner is she in at that point? Do you think she's just fighting Magneto for the bad place of it? Or for just Rogue? Seems like she's on their side, to me in that situation. In X2, she uses her powers to save humanity when their back is against a wall, right? And when the kids are in a cell with their "backs to the wall", who finds them and rescues them. Storm.
I guess a better way I should have worded it was "emotional support". Of course we see her fighting the good fight, because we know she's an X-Man, and that's what X-Men do. All of these things also have large scale consequences involved if nobody is there to stop them.
So yes, a better way for me to say it would have been to mention "emotional support". I will have to dig out my comics to find the perfect example of what I am talking about... *grabs box of X-Men comics... searching...............* Ah yes, here it is. Uncanny X-Men #326. At the beginning of this issue, we see Gambit, alone on the rooftop of the mansion, distressed, thinking back on his "crimes" that to this point, are unknown. Storm comes up, and they have a nice heart to heart, in which Gambit is concerned that the true nature of a person can never change, and that he is forever doomed with the truth of who he is. And it is Storm who is there to comfort him emotionally. And I guess we did see a bit of that with Senator Kelly, and with Nightcrawler, but both times she also had the fear and anger asterik along with it, instead of just her unconditional love. At least, that's my interpretation of it.
The Guard said:
Now you're just nitpicking, with more of this "they could have had a moment like this in there" stuff. She did, in X-MEN, try to get him to see what was truly important beyond himself. But you don't remember that, do you?
As with the above examples, I see this as a "greater consequence" type action. She tried to get Wolverine to see what was important beyond himself because the X-Men could definatley use his help in the fight against Magneto. Yes, for a worthwhile cause, to save the world leaders, and Rogue. But I didn't view it as a "Logan, I'm here for you" type moment.
The Guard said:
So, because it doesn't conform to your particular view of a character, it's all wrong? "I don't like it", fine. "It's wrong"? Wow.
I didn't say it was wrong, I said that it was inaccurate to my interpretation of the character. It's just like
Batman Begins. I didn't totally enjoy it as much as most people did, because it was inaccurate to my interpretation of the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman. I never said that it was "wrong" though. Just not what I view the character to be.
And let me just say this. Do I think movie Storm is accurate to comic book Storm? No, I don't.
But also, I do believe that her movie version
is developed, and is given motivation. I do see how some can see her mindset as next to that of Magneto's. But obviously it isn't completely if she is fighting against him, instead of with him. I get the character that is there, on screen. I just don't believe that it is an accurate portrayal of what's on comic book pages.
The Guard said:
And so, generally speaking, many comic book readers do not fully understand or care about some of the loftier themes and literary devices?
GENERALLY speaking,
MANY comic book fans, yes.
But not every comic book fan falls into this category. Reading comic books does not mean you cannot become intellectually attatched to a piece, and understand the symbolism and themes of it.
The Guard said:
The stuff that I mentioned above that I felt was lacking from her character; the emotional support.
The Guard said:
The mindset of Magneto can't be her mindset. Or she'd be a villain. Storm's mindset is obviously that of someone who was persecuted, but chose to foster understanding and peace instead of wanting to destroy her and mutantkind's tormentors. This mindset, buying into Xavier's "tolerance" and "understanding" aspects, is NOT the mindset of Magneto and his followers. Therefore Storm is clearly very different than they are, and has a markedly different mindset. What she has is similar motivations, but not the same ones by any stretch.
Correct, it obviously isn't her mindset, because she's fighting for Xavier's cause, and not Magneto's.
But she does come off sounding like borderline Magneto.
Senator Kelly: Do you hate humans?
Storm: Sometimes.
Senator Kelly: Why?
Storm: I guess because I am afraid of them.
Senator Kelly: Well I guess there's one less human you'll have to worry about (dies)
That's probably not word for word perfect, but pretty close. That sounds close to something Magneto might say.
From Storm, I would expect something along the lines of "No, I don't hate humans" and maybe explain why she
fears them. But even the first time I saw
X-Men and I was too stoked to care about perfect interpretations because it was an X-Men movie, I was kind of taken aback by her "sometimes" response. I expected something more "caring" from her, than "sometimes".
The Guard said:
Does that make it an invalid take on her character? Can you see how, for a character like Storm, as a mutant, she would likely have these aspects to her character, but overcome them because of who she is?
But the thing is, I never see Storm talking about how she sometimes "hates" humans. Now maybe I just haven't read enough comics. Because, again, I don't claim to be the expert when it comes to the comics. But I just don't see the hatred and anger aspect to her character in the comics and cartoons. I can see how a character like that, who is a mutant, and would suffer from persecution, would think like that. But that line of thinking is not what I expect from Storm. I would expect a character like Storm to realize that these people are just ignorant, uninformed, and "smack them in the head with a frying pan" to make them understand (of course that's in apostrophes because it's metaphorical, not literal)
The Guard said:
She has been all business in X-MEN and X2. Very to the point, outspoken, and unwilling to take much crap from anyone. At least through dialogue. Halle's portrayal of her does not scream "confidence"
Where have we really seen an instance of her not willing to take crap from anyone?
The Guard said:
So she has some fear and anger. Where in the movies do you see her choose to let her anger and fear outweigh her trust, in her relationships with people (Except for Sabertooth and Toad, even with Magneto she appeals to his humanity)? She doesn't let that happen in these films. Ever. In fact, when she has a chance to let her hatred take over, she chooses to trust Kelly, with her emotions, if nothing else. Then why, out of all the X-Men, does she stay there with Senator Kelly? Why does she not let him die alone? Why does she talk so intimately with him about her feelings on humanity and mutantkind? Why is she the one who bonds with Nightcrawler, who for all they know, is dangerous? She's as trusting as anyone has been in these films, certainly far more so than Jean, Cyclops, and even Xavier, simply by the nature of the conversations she's had with people. She's bared herself emotionally more than any of them, really. The "fear and anger" may not be overt in the comics, but it's not hard to see it being there somewhere, simply because she is a mutant, and sees the results of hatred every day. How does having some fear and anger toward humans hurt her character? I mean, you live in the same world I do, are you honestly telling me that you don't have some fear anf anger over humanity's actions from time to time? Why should Storm be any different?
It may just be my interpretation, but I don't really see her interaction with Senator Kelly as forgiving. Yes, the man here is on his death bed, and won't live long enough to make a difference politically, but she has a perfect oppourtunity here to try to ease an anti-mutant man's mind about the subject of mutants. But instead, when he asks if she hates humans, she says "sometimes". My take on Storm would have had her try to comfort him towards the subject of mutants, and try to make him realize, in his last few moments alive, that mutants don't have to be dangerous and hateful, but rather peaceful, forgiving people. In my opinion, that was a missed oppourtunity to define Storm's character.
The Guard said:
First, she never expressly says "anger toward humans". She says "anger". Anger can come from many places. It can come from how humants treat mutants, or how Magneto has treated humans or the whole damned conflict.
You say the Storm you know would not have anger toward humans. I call bull****. Why?
Let's roleplay.
You are a mutant. Because you are a mutant, people think differently of you. They may even shun you. And if they don't shun you, then by your work with Xavier, you are exposed to many situations where mutants ARE hated and shunned. Do you honestly think that wouldn't make someone like Storm angry? The suffering of anyone? I do. If not, what makes her angry then? Attacks on her physical person? The character in the comics and the movies, afterall, is named "Storm"? That name hardly suggests someone devoid of anger and tumultuous emotions.
You can't always choose who or what you become angry at, or what you fear. You can however, choose what you do with that anger and fear, and if you let it control you or make you inactive. Storm doesn't. She has turned it into something positive.
Does Storm go around preaching tolerance to humans and mutants in the movies? No, she's clearly starting with mutants. But it's not hard to see this version of Storm branching out and becoming something more, where she tried to spread the word to mutants. Her character hasn't reached that point yet in this movie. Doesn't mean she won't.
First, she does express anger towards humans, in the exchange that I've quoted about twice already between her and Senator Kelly.
And yes, you say you can't control becoming angry, but it's what you do with that anger, if you let it control you or not.
Well, from her exchange with Nightcrawler, it can be interpreted that she does let it control her. "I gave up on pity a long time ago" "Sometimes anger can help you survive"
That exchange can easily be interpreted as her letting her anger get the best of her. She later seemingly overcomes it, with her "I have faith in you" remark to Nightcrawler, to get him to teleport her inside of Cerebro, and maybe that is the growing point of her character in these films.
I'm not saying her anger isn't a valid motivation for fighting on Xavier's side, it very well could be. All I'm saying is that the anger motivation seems inaccurate for the character of Storm. From my interpretation of the character.
Now, I've played tonight's game of Guardball, I'm sure when I come back tomorrow afternoon, there will be something here for me to reply to, so I look forward to it.
I do find it funny, however, how I went from essentially arguing on your side, to now arguing against you, on the same topic I was previously on your side about...
If Cyke does come back at the final battle of X3, I'm betting money we'll get that same thing again.
