First: RE"GUARD"ING, your first reply about not repsonding to your "Cyclops" posts... THAT WASNT ME YOU NUT!!! I didnt post that "I had missed it 30 times and I was awaiting your sarcastic response"... that was posted by RedIsNotBlue. So before you go blasting off at one poster get your EGO out of your arse and actually pay attention to whom your responding to.
Sorry. Really, though, it doesn't matter if it was you or not. Because I believe you did, in the end, refer to all my examples as "fuzzy", a point I disagree highly with, whether your or RedIsBlue says it. You were generalizing, but still, there are examples in there that are anything but fuzzy, and clearly designed by the writers and director to show who was the leader in X-MEN, and who Xavier trusted the most with his own safety.
MISSIONS... in the plural??? Why would you use the plural for a word when you only elaborated ONE, and the FIRST one at that??
Because Cyclops goes on three missions in X-Men. And I didn't only elaborate on one, I elaborated on all three. I only elaborated heavily on the final mission because A, it was longer than the other two, giving us a better idea of his leadership qualities, and because he only leads the entire team in one mission in the films. Since leading a group of people denotes leadership...I'll let you figure it out.
Mind you, who the hell was he supposed to send, SANTA CLAUSE??? Because he sure as hell had sooo many Xmen to send on missions??!!
He has a woman who can control the weather and call down lightning almost at a whim. He has a fairly powerful telepath. He sent Storm and Jean, not Cyclops, when he needed to retrieve a mutant assassin. Obviously he believes they're capable enough. None of the X-Men were portrayed as incapable. All of them were shown to be capable, but out of the three, Cyclops is clearly the one who is best at strategy and thinking quickly in these films.
How is your wonderful new argument point even relevant to the discussion, which was about whether or not Cyclops was the leader? "Cyclops is only the leader because he was the best of the three"? We're not arguing about WHY he was the leader, we're arguing if he was or not. If we're going to argue about WHY he's the leader, that's a seperate argument. But you won't defeat my argument that he WAS the leader by submitting a completely seperate one that calls the reasons he is into doubt. George Bush is our President. The reasons for it suck, and I do not feel he deserves the position. But he is still, undoubtedly, our President.
He sent Storm and Cyclops of THREE XMEN at that time (X1 only revealed 3 characters that were officially Xmen at that moment).
So? Whether he's the leader of three, or the leader out of a hundred, he's still the leader. It's still Cyclops showing the leadership qualities. Calling the shots. Leading them into battle. I don't care how many people one leads. That does not decide whether or not they ARE a leader in the first place.
This sounds to me more like Xavier picking two of the three Xmen competent field agents, not ESTABLISHED LEADERS, NOR ANY TYPE OF TEAM.
Odd that he always picks the same two, isn't it? And that it is Cyclops who ends up making all those important decisions and moves.
It only takes two people to make a team. This isn't sports (where you can also have a two person team in certain sports). Anywhere teamwork is happening, you have a team. And we teamwork between Cyclops and Storm, therefore, they are indeed a team.
(And we later know why Jean wasnt there, Xavier explains that Jean was not that type of Xman... that she wasnt the person to step out on her own, so why would he send her to do field work).
He doesn't send her to do field work because Cyclops and Storm are his heavy hitters, and Jean is not so much into the battling side of things. Her powers, at least in X-MEN and X2, don't lend themselves to offensive work.
So to me this is just you grabbing straws and creating something YOU want to see out of it.
And you completely ignoring the original argument to begin with in your response and seeking out subarguments that are completely out of context.
Regardless of why you think he should or shouldn't have been...Cyclops was portrayed as the field leader in X-MEN.
1) Who are you trying to convince.. YOURSELF??? The last time I checked Politeness is an Ummm PEOPLE SKILL!! It's what the human's call a good way of dealing with people... in any situation.
That's the company line. That is NOT reflected throughout most of humanity. Generally people cannot just stand there and be polite when attacked. And politeness is hardly my best example. It's just one trait of many that indicate Scott is a good leader.
That is whether your a leader of a nation, or a street sweeper, or garbage collector.
I didn't say politeness denoted leadership in the film. I said it was a leadership QUALITY. And it is. Ask the average store manager if "people skills" as you call it is a leadership quality.
Where I'm from, being polite is just a great way of expressing your a GOOD HUMAN BEING. I know plenty of good leaders that WEREN'T Polite, but they could lead people any day of the week.
It's still a leadership quality.
2)A moment of stoicism I will not argue with you, but this is more towards cyclpos actual character than portrayal of a leader in a story...
I never said it was. These are leadership traits. Which a leader character MUST have in order to be a leader, correct? And this is one of the things they got right about Cyclops, isn't it? Again, this is hardly my best example of Cyclops as a leader in the story, and I said that when I originally posted it. It can easily be interpreted as a leadership quality for the X-Men, though.
A leader bends people to his will, whether by force or by charm... he can make ANYONE respect (if nothing else his leadership ability). This would have been a great way.
What? Force? No, it wouldn't have been a great way. Not in this particular scene, especially since they have just met. There'd be no weight to the sequence. Something like that makes both Wolverine and Cyclops just a TAD too childish. And cinematically, it destroys the pacing of the scene to have them suddenly scrap.
to establish Cyke as a leader. No wonder Wolverine immediately ran off to find him and join up! 2)Dear lord, you certainly are trying hard arent you? Or, we could interpret this as two STUDENTS studying to be good Xmen some day, Kinda like we're gonna see in X3 with all those new students... ARE THEY GREAT LEADERS TOO GUARD, SHOULD WE KNOW THIS JUST FROM THEIR DANGER ROOM SCENES????
The X-Men, even the younger ones, have always been shown to have leadership qualities. If we see them LEAD people, then YES, they will be leaders, too. We saw hints of this in Colossus's actions in X2. And in some ways, in some of Bobby and Rouge's actions.
Yes, Guard good leaders react quickly and instinctly... so do good warriors... or is everyone on the battlefield in a story supposed to be interpreted as A GOOD leader. Besides I dont know if you really can determine that he reacted so swiftly considering the bad guy reacted a bit faster by swiping his goggles. And we all know what a great leader TOAD is!
How does the speed of Cyclops' reaction to Sabertooth's assault intersect with Toad *****slapping him? You seem to think I'm hinging my argument on one thing Cyclops does in this film. I'm simply saying, these are all qualities a good leader can have. These are all things that add up. And can easily be interpreted as the man being quite capable and quick thinking.
BUZZ, BUZZZ, BUZZZ.. Do I even have to comment on this one? Oh my, this great leader needs the 'Bret Butler' of the story to think for him first, before he can get himself together.
Cyclops wouldn't have said "Wait a minute" the way he did if he hadn't figured it out. The reason they all have a piece of the reveleation is so they all have a part in that scene, so it feels less like forced exposition.
What was it you were saying about quick reactions. I suppose I should give him credit for actually finishing his sentence. But are you really telling me this is an effective way to portray a GREAT leader like Cyclops? Having him finish someone else's sentences???? Again... whose arguement are you making here?
It's all the little things that add up to show who the man is and what he's capable of. Is it the best way to portray a great leader? No, probably not. But he may not be a great leader, especially not yet. The scene in question is an effective way to reveal a villain's plot by giving all four of those characters a bit of the "revelation". And I never said he was a great leader. I just said he was the leader.
You even knew your arguement was weak, didnt you.
It's not weak. I knew you'd try to hammer the hell out of my first few points, yes. And attempt to undermine my original point with subarguments that are completely unrelated to my own point.
That's why your trying to save the best ones for last. Good tactic, shows you have some strategic and competitive skills... unfortunately that's more than I can say for the Cyclops portrayal.
Except that his strategic skills were shown in the film. Several times.
Good point, BUT you're forgetting that the movie did actually manage to establish Cyclops as a SON, and Xavier as his father figure. So couldnt the audience interpret this as a good SON doing the WILL of his FATHER?
The audience can interpret it however they want. It can clearly be both (which doesn't negate the one aspect I pointed out). It's also in character for Cyclops. So hey, one more thing they got right.
Honestly, by your logic, apparently we can now say that since Batman helps Gotham City, a task his father began, that he's not saving Gotham because he's a good man on any level, but because it's his father's will? And it's only one thing? God forbid it's both.
In fact, wouldnt that be more likely to happen than them actually saying ..."Wow only a good LEADER would go to his daddy and offer to take up the reigns in time of despair"... Yeah, take a poll and see which one is a more vivid and complete thought expressed by this moment.
Cyclops says "if anything happens", not "I'm going to do it right now". And hey, shall we take a poll on whether it's one, the other, or both? Because it being "both" certainly doesn't negate one or the other, does it?
Again Guard, at this point the audience had been baited ...by the storytelling mind you... to believe he was actually just acting as a jealous arse, more than making a sound Leadership decision.
Question. Where, in X-MEN, do we actually see Cyclops "jealous"? Concerned about Wolverine being around Jean, maybe. "Jealous", no.
One, if I'm not mistaken, was further driven home by having his request IGNORED, by his mentor and teammates.
It was Xavier's call. Xavier is Cyclop's superior. So natually Xavier is going to have the final say. This is not a weak character moment, it's simply showing who really calls the shots about who is an X-Man: Xavier. Which is also in character, as it has been in the comics.
I dont care who you are, as a reader or viewer of a story, THAT does not bode well.
Doesn't bode well for what? Being the field leader of the X-Men? He's still the field leader, he's just not choosing his personnell (when has he ever had say over Xavier?) Are we pretending now that Xavier has never circumvented
Cyclops' authority before?
Yup, I wont dispute this one, It is a clear moment in the movie where Cyclops can finally stand out as the guy in charge.
Interesting. So you say he's clearly portrayed as the man in charge here, then?
The guy that everyone repects and will follow on this dangerous mission. The person responsible for mission failure or completion. The guy that... BELLY FLOPS THE PLANE!!!
Apparently you missed the part before he has a bit of a rough landing, where he flies a supersonic jet pretty expertly and efficiently, and strategically. The results of an action do not omit the meaning of the previous actions in context. It's not like he crashed. He's doing an almost purely vertical water landing. They're not easy. Look at how much trouble Rogue had landing it in X2, and that was on land, not water.
It's a supersonic jet, and he's landing it, much faster than usual landings occur and on the water. I think he can be forgiven for not landing it perfectly. It's just a humorous moment, and a way to show that he's not perfect. It also serves to relieve tension before the X-Man march into battle. A writing tool.
and who is right there to smirk at him once again(I thought Wolverine hated to fly, why is he up front)? CONSTANT UNDERMINING A CHARACTER WITH HUMOR OFTENS SENDS A DIRECT MESSAGE TO THE AUDIENCE! Want to know what that message is Guard? You guessed it... clown, noob, joke, jester, side-kick!!
No, that is generally the message sent when a character does something really comical and stupid. Cyclops doesn't do any of these things in X-MEN, and definitely not any more than other characters do
"Hey look kid, I don't need advice on auto safety from-CRASHHH! HEY LOOK, KIDS! WOLVERINE'S A JESTER FIGURE! LAUGH AT THE FUNNY WOLVERINE!
I find it odd that you think Cyclops was portrayed as a clown, and yet he doesn't have too many of these "clown moments". And apparently his "non-clown" moments have no bearing on your decisions about how he was portrayed, or how people will view him.
Two, if you're so allfired concerned about the Wolverine/Cyclops stuff in regard to characterization and meaning, read an X-Men comic. Wolverine has almost ALWAYS ribbed Cyclops in this way. This is their relationship. It's almost spot-on how Wolverine treats Cyclops, and always has been this way. Early on, Wolverine always tried to make Cyke look bad, and Cyclops almost always let his actions do his talking for him. So, hey, look, ANOTHER thing the movies got right about Cyclops, AND Wolverine.
If audiences want to assume Cyclops is the movie's "jester", they're making an awful and uninformed interpretation. Because that's not how he's written, and that's not how he's played. And I don't think anyone with a shred of intelligence thought that was the intention in X-MEN. It's just a "character moment" between Cyclops and Wolverine.
This is also an affective tool in storytelling and it usually works like a charm. But one still wonders why EVERYONE got the perception sooooo lopsidedly wrong, except for super perceptory Guard of course.
Why did so many (it's not many, it's actually a relatively small number)?Because half the people on this board can't interpret films for ****, or think intelligently about concepts such as characterization and tone. Many people here are peons.
And we all know how well the movie displayed Wolverine's RESPECT for cyke's leadership. 
OR, "Mr. Spin Doctor", any NORMAL audience might have seen the "Boyfriend" coming to his girlfriend's aide, completely ignoring the fact that an immediate threat needed to be nuetralized. Yeah, that's the guy I want next to me in battle...the one that will take care of his SPASTIC Girlfriend who is wigging out cuase she's been disoriented, not hurt, disoriented! Meanwhile I'm getting my arse blown off... YOU DA BEST CYCLOPS 
(this actually saddens me, but I tried to write-it off as as the story and character progression)! But again you're "spin doctoring". We cant let good ole Cyke have his moment alone can we... cause our focal point character would have been useless then wouldnt he! So ultimately, Wolverine comes up with the final plan doesnt he. And it is a good one. TOO bad poor Cyke hadnt figured that all out on his own, but at least he was in on the decision making. I LOVE 
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