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Comics so a former love interest is coming back?

At this point, I'd love for them to bring Gwen back. All I can say is this. After 20 years of the Spider-Marriage, I don't feel it matches up to the period when Peter and Gwen were together. That simple.

But- I don't want this crew to handle bringing Gwen back, as they kinda... Suck. I'm sure within a few months I'll be wishing that Gwen was back in her grave.
 
Gwen back? Of all the low dispicable things you can do...

Besides I think MJ is a much better character than Gwen (not originally both started kinda' flat and both were built a little by Lee but neither were very compelling or endearing characters IMO until Conaway started laying in the depth once Gwen went bye-bye).

But wouldn' that be something Gwen comes out of hiding "Yeah, I've been....in Europe raising the kids for my little hubby Normie when I found out that the no good charleton that murdered my father was my ex-boyfriend Peter Parker. So Regis, I came out of seclusion with this new book that tells what a bad kisser he was 8-12 years ago (take your pick according to writer.)."

Now wouldn't that be a terrific return? I'm sorry but I hate messing with Gwen. The best thing that character did was be the innocence of Peter's youth that was shattered by Norman Osborn and forced him to grow up in the most cynical way possible. I felt the best way to revisit her was in DeMathis' and JRSr.'s the kiss. Spider-Man Blue was pretty good but all this revisting just leads to them trying to tact on to the mythology and then you end up with bull**** like Sins Past. Gwen serves best as a tool in Peter's memory of loss, love and nostolgia and an ever present fuel to hate Osborn (as should baby May but leave it to Marvel to make him a bad father), but trying to add onto a character who was never that interesting forces them to do really stupid ****....

In short please leave Gwendy alone you still can **** MJ up some more (like urging Pete to quit being Spidey and leaving him) or Black Cat (well....I'm sure Marvel will find a way to break what is a pretty decent 2D character and crap on her too).

Just my opinion though.
 
Gwen isn't what so many of you are saying. She's not a symbol. She's not an icon. She's not a representation or facsimile. She's a character, like Peter and MJ.

The reason I'd like to see her back at this point is because what we have now sucks. I'll say till my last breath- ASM #121-122 are classic. Some of the finest work this genre of comic books will ever produce. Some of the finest work to ever be produced with one of the greatest characters ever to appear on a comic page.

That being said, killing Gwen was still a mistake. Stan knew it. Marvel knows it and it keeps coming back to bite them on the ass.

As far as I'm concerned, all of the best elements of the Spider-Man mythos came from Stan, Steve and John R Sr. Some others have managed to do some excellent work with them, but no one has added anything to the the mythos that compares. So here's the thing- Stan created Gwen to be Peter's wife. His compliment. His soulmate. Just as he so perfectly crafted Peter, he also knew what would be right for him in a girlfriend/wife. that was Gwen.

If Stan actually felt that MJ was the one for Peter, he could have easily directed things that way. And you know what? It would have worked also. Stan's approach to MJ would have been an excellent compliment to Peter as well. She was fun, funny, with a deceptive cleverness.

But the MJ that came back in the 80's wasn't. She's was boring as hell. The writers seemed to make her whatever appeared to be "hot" at the time, instead of making her her own person. A supermodel for crissakes? A soap opera actress? And this isn't 20-20 hindsight. I hated it when the comics were new.

But going back to Gwen, so many folks are talking about how MJ is being shafted. If anyone got the shaft, it was Gwen. In spades. I've listed on several threads all the potential the character had that wasn't examined because when Gwen was around, supporting characters weren't allowed to have lives. Girlfirends could only be damsels in distress, or weeping and worrying until the hero came home.

So, Gwen's problems were merely that there was no effort placed in developing her.

Frankly, MJ's had her shot. She's been given every opportunity to be interesting. She's been given every ammenity that Gwen was never given.

So, I'd like for Gwen to be given that same shot. But- I know that the folks at Marvel are the same inept drones who crafted Sins Past, so I know that if they brought Gwen back, her character would only be further destroyed. Hey- if they can kill Spidey, what chance would Gwen have? The only hope is if Loeb takes the lead on that one.
 
Well Loeb is a writer I greatly admire and Spider-Man: Blue was a great nostolgia piece (though I hated how he just regulated Lizard to nothing in it, but that wasn't the point obviously) and a great primer for new readers who don't know a lot about 616 Pete.

But even in all of his Gwen gushing (and it was a bit much when Loeb obviously says he prefers Gwen over MJ, when I much prefer the takes of writers like DeMathis and Jenkins who merely say he loved them in different ways but views Gwen as letting him have the confidence and mind to woe MJ)....

but I just don't want her to come back. I'll say to the very end that ASM #121 and #122 were the best issues of Spider-Man ever made (especially the latter as the former really is all about the last 3 pages). And I agree no one will top Lee/Ditko and more importantly to me Lee/Romita Sr. because this was the character in his golden age. This was the orignal people who got the character and letting him grow. He wasn't supposed to be stuck in stasis like he is now he was allowed to go through high school and college and change and make new friends and be buddies with Flash Thompson and they weren't afraid to take risks with their rogue galleries.


But Gwen was never Pete's most interesting girl friend. In a lot of ways she is the most boring (but only because Betty and Liz got the said treatment you talked about in the '70s, '80s and '90s to make them interesting), well besides Deb Whitman anyway. She never was an engaging character. And while it is clear she was constructed to be Pete's main squeeze while MJ was there to get in teh way and allow Pete to have some fun before he got hot and heavy with Gwen, it was obvious MJ was the more interesting character and more fun to be around. Even Stan and JRSr. admit it and you can see which they have more fun with in the examples like the drug issues.

They had written Pete in love with Gwen but for that day's standards they realized MJ was the more compelling character and you could do things with her you couldn't do with Gwen. The order came down after Lee left that Pete and Gwen were to be "seperated" and Peter to start dating MJ. But of course that did not work out as Stan saw as he envisioned the ability to bring Gwen back at another date. He was mad as hell whwen his character was killed off.

And that may be so, but in 20/20 she was a lot more boring. Even in the 2D days MJ was the more interesting character and though seeming flaky and a party girl she seemed to have more of a personality and being more than just her quips (at least in the later issues). Now whether later writers explored her well enough is up for debate. I thought Conaway did a great job with her and Wein was okay. When she came back some writers like Mantlo and DeMathis got her better. Yeah, making her a model was a bit of a lame idea, one that they are finally 86ing for good (my bet more to do with the movie though) and there were some good stories before the marriage with her and Pete reconciling that he is Spider-Man and her early distraught and playful teasing with him. The engagement was out of left field but the marriage should have worked (as Stan Lee also said he wanted them to get married and that is my guess why in #290 he goes from "I want my old microscope back" to "I want to be married.").

Mary Jane has been well written in this marriage as well. I think JMS for all his recent faults has written this marriage surprisingly well. I thought DeMathis did a decent job as did Jenkins. While it is clear that Millar didn't think much about it he wrote a very good MJ and I liked how she was the one to stop Norman by calling the Avengers and putting a ****ing bullet into him. So the marriage has been written well and it ahs been written poor. But I think it is a far more interesting marriage than it ever would've been with Gwen.

Just my opinion though.
 
heck yes DAcrowe, gwen was boring as balls, all i can think of her doing if she was married to peter is like just agreeing with everything he does
 
Well, the obvious answer regarding Gwen and MJ is this- If MJ were in and of herself so engaging, thered be no further mention of Gwen. She could carry the romantic portion of the book on her own. But she can't. And the writers keep coming back to the need to bounce her. There's just so much an actress/model can affect Spider-Man's world.

There is nothing that could be done with MJ that couldn't be done with Gwen. Sexy? Gwen is sexy. Sense of humor? Gwen has been and can certainly be written with a sense of humor. Moreover, being a studious young woman, she'd likely have more of a sense of humor in-sync with Peter's. And frankly, since Peter's been married, he has no sense of humor. That's the ironic thing. MJ knows his secret. So he's actually free to exercise his Spidey persona with her, which is a freer version of himself. Yet he doesn't. He's more sullen with her.

And there are MANY things that could be done with Gwen that couldn't be done with MJ. A science major. She could help Peter on his cases with her input. A cop's daughter. Again, I see her as becoming a cop herself. How many stories could be generated from Spider-Man's girl being a cop? How much drama comes from that, since Spidey often finds himself on the wrong side of the law?

Gwen is boring? So is MJ. Which is why every spidey writer except for Peter David wants her gone, including JMS, whom you just praised. Any female character who has to carry the dramatic weight of a superhero book suffers from this. It happened to Gwen, it's happened to MJ.
There are ways around this problem however. And it could work for either character.

The only reason they chose to kill Gwen off was hte same reason they are going for constant shock value now. And MJ was only chosen as a back-up because she was the only established supporting character that made for a viable love interest. And that didn't last very long. And ever since, they've been trying to find a way to get rid of her.

Like I said, Stan Lee knew what he was doing. His successors haven't done as well.
 
Ah, but STan made the order to have Pete and Gwen's love called off and that Peter should start dating MJ because he thought she was a more interesting character. Now whether he meant long term or short term I do not know, I know he was pretty pissed though when they killed Gwen off permanently however.

But Gwen as a person just was never very exciting. I'm sure she could've been written differently but most images I have of Gwen is her sitting by a phone with a tissue in her hand wandering where Peter is and blaming Spider-Man for her father's death. Now I know that isn't the only thing her character did and there are quite a few stories that you could give me examples of (I'm sure I've read most of 'em, including Loeb's very nice Spider-Man: Blue which for the record I still found MJ more fun in)...

but what we have is a character who was never as interesting as early MJ. In the end MJ was the more intriguing character of the two. Now that could have changed, it just depended on writing and you are right about that but I think MJ just fits better. Gwen is the perfect match for Peter. She is (or was) a science major with the same earnestness and look on life for the most part and would likely agree with Peter and maybe even help in scientific investigations....

but that is not as interesting as someone who feels out of the loop when she can't help but tries to be strong for her husband anyways. I loved in Millar's run that she had enough of this **** and started packing a gun and blows GG away (if ever temporarily). And while MJ is not completely in sync with Peter that is what makes it fun. They argue they have problems and they get over them. He can be on his "my life sucks" phase which he does about every 3 or 4 issues even in the Stan Lee days (probably just as much then) and she can be the fun girl still and knock some sense into her hubbie.


And I agree Peter should be more carefree around her and depending on the writer he is (I point to JMS again). And it interests me that you said JMS wants to kill her off. I'd like to see that quote because I feel MJ is one of the few things he does right anymore (the other being Aunt May). But it wouldn't surprise me, after all he did a great Morlun/Book of Ezekiel story arc but had to just rape his own great stuff with the Other though.
 
DACrowe said:
Ah, but STan made the order to have Pete and Gwen's love called off and that Peter should start dating MJ because he thought she was a more interesting character. Now whether he meant long term or short term I do not know, I know he was pretty pissed though when they killed Gwen off permanently however.

Stan did no such thing. He had nothing to do with that decision. He was away on vacation. Roy Thomas, Gerry Conway and John Romita Sr. made that call. To justify it after the fact, he said how MJ was more interesting. But then, he also siad Quesada is the best thing to happen to Marvel. But he also emphasized he didn't want Gwen killed.

I'm sure she could've been written differently but most images I have of Gwen is her sitting by a phone with a tissue in her hand wandering where Peter is and blaming Spider-Man for her father's death.

That was a total of about 5 issues out of the near 90 or so she appeared in. I can think of lots more she did: her willingness to stand up to Kingpin during the Brainwasher story. Her slugging a guy for putting Peter down. Her activism. Her standing up to Spider-Man after her Dad's death. Her not folding when Kraven kidnapped her. The girl was made of some tough material. She was also sexy, sensuous, and very smart.

And MJ has spent the last twenty years sitting around waiting for Peter to come home. So there's little difference.

but that is not as interesting as someone who feels out of the loop when she can't help but tries to be strong for her husband anyways. I loved in Millar's run that she had enough of this **** and started packing a gun and blows GG away (if ever temporarily). And while MJ is not completely in sync with Peter that is what makes it fun. They argue they have problems and they get over them. He can be on his "my life sucks" phase which he does about every 3 or 4 issues even in the Stan Lee days (probably just as much then) and she can be the fun girl still and knock some sense into her hubbie.

Essentially her being nothing more than a potential hostage is interesting? Not after twenty years it isn't.

Like I said, actual stories could have been generated with Gwen. An actual partnership could have been developed between Gwen and Peter. And she wouldn't have needed to be merely a potential hostage.

And I agree Peter should be more carefree around her and depending on the writer he is (I point to JMS again). And it interests me that you said JMS wants to kill her off. I'd like to see that quote because I feel MJ is one of the few things he does right anymore (the other being Aunt May). But it wouldn't surprise me, after all he did a great Morlun/Book of Ezekiel story arc but had to just rape his own great stuff with the Other though.

A month or two ago there was a discussion board with all of Spidey's writers and Quesada (which included Loeb) where all but Peter David said the marriage was too limiting for Peter and for them as writers. I'm sure the link is some pages back. Or just check Newsrama articles. I'm going to look myself, so I'll post it if I find it.
 
Dragon said:
And MJ has spent the last twenty years sitting around waiting for Peter to come home. So there's little difference.

That's a little harsh on MJ Dragon.

You listed some of the tough material Gwen was made of. Well MJ's been thru some tough times too during the Spidey marriage. Heck even before she hooked up with Peter too.

She's been kidnapped several times by foes like the Goblins, Doc Ock, and she even had a psychotic stalker or two. And of course, she lost a baby.

I will grant you that the Spidey marriage hasn't been terribly interesting in the comics, and that Gwen did have more in common with Peter than MJ did. But MJ has hardly just spent the last 20 years waiting for Peter to come home.
 
Id like Peter to tap some of that Betty Brant ass.
 
Sarah is writing the book, LOL...

Or the Gwen Stacy Clone. She's pissed Pete didn't try to help her (I wonder if she looks like an old woman now?)
 
DACrowe said:
Joey Q is sitting there (as if he would :rolleyes: ) and goes "AHA! I got it, I'll introduce Gwen and say it was only her clone who died and in the same ish I'll kill off MJ so Gwen can console Peter and he is single again!"


There you go! Write it up, and get a good artist. But why stop there? Make Pete's old love interest...BEN. Yes, Pete doesn't know Ben had a sex change and surgery to look like Gwen. Thusly, it follows that 'Gwen' will return to do a tell all...she/he will tell how weird Spidey is...

Then MJ has a breakdown and starts bleaching her hair...
 
Excuse me while I gouge my eyes out.









(Only to enter a cacoon later and come out brand spankin' new!)
 
Oh c'mon Dragon, MJ has been a lot more than hostage material. Sure she has been kdianpped a few times (as you mentioned) but you also mentioned Gwen was too. And MJ stood up for herself. I think Millar purposely made the point that MJ on the bridge woke up pulled a gun and shot GG instead of letting herself get thrown off. And when she is not kidnapped she is intereesting. She and Pete have her problems. She has a real job and career that Pete is not there for and when he comes home battered she wishes she could help him more but the most she can do is watch TLC anf fix him up (I like the friction and jealousy she feels when Black Cat helps out, feeling like she has more in common than her).

But in the end she is the one to lift Peter's spirits and kind of being an opposite making their relationship fun and they have become real partners over the years and she has become a great confidant. Gwen imo was too much like Peter and I never liked how when she went away she would spend the whole time crying and envisioning Peter's face every place she went and comes running back all is forgiven without a moment of talking about her problems. I mean it was the '60s but even then there was a layer under MJ that was untapped so she was more fun to read and you knew there was more there. And only Conaway was the first to tap into that in ASM #122.

And as for Stan, I only know he said that he decided that Peter should date MJ for a time and sent the order down to Marvel but he did not have any intention that Gwen would get killed off and when he found out he ordered to bring her back. They tried miserably and that got scrapped.

And to an earlier point, eys Gwen and her death coming back to haunt Peter is a focal point in the comics ever since. But that doesn't mean MJ is a weak character, just that that was such a major point for Peter. It was his loss of innocence, he was no longer the misbeguiled youth but a man after that and it is like the end of "the good ol' days" and it was the first love of his life gone. That isn't something that would haunt ANYONE for the rest of their lives, but the point is Pete was resilent and moved on. Personally I'd like to see him every now and then mourn the loss of his daughter, but not so much as a mention other than he once said in The Other "I never gave MJ kids" but he DID. He should still be bitter about what Norman did there, but for some odd reason he is not.

Oh well.
 
Dragon said:
I can think of lots more she did: her willingness to stand up to Kingpin during the Brainwasher story. Her slugging a guy for putting Peter down. Her activism. Her standing up to Spider-Man after her Dad's death. Her not folding when Kraven kidnapped her. The girl was made of some tough material. She was also sexy, sensuous, and very smart.

mj can do all those things, except stand up to spider-man, cuz that would be stupid, unless she pulls a flash thompson... i really hope marvel doesnt read this thread, if they ever kill mj off or get pete a new woman there will be outrage, the majority of spidey fans have grown up with MJ as the one and only girl for peter and we dont want otherwise
 
Well the marriage has been cannon for so long and for the most part it has wroked and the way it is written I think the other would remain single if one died (and sayed dead). Who really wants to see that?

Peter was a swinging bachelor now he is not and writers find that difficult, well tough that is life. And it is people grow up and get married and when they do they are *supposed* to put that lifestyle behind them and move on. Sure it isn't as exciting as basically dating three girls at once but that is the point and it is time to settle with a more meaningful relationship with one person. If they just want him to date more chicks well try and get a job over at Ultimate then.
 
DACrowe said:
Oh c'mon Dragon, MJ has been a lot more than hostage material. Sure she has been kdianpped a few times (as you mentioned) but you also mentioned Gwen was too. And MJ stood up for herself. I think Millar purposely made the point that MJ on the bridge woke up pulled a gun and shot GG instead of letting herself get thrown off.

MJ packing in an era of "Girls with guns" is nothing special. Especially since she knew her husband was facing a super powered homicidal maniac, who tended to strike at him through his loved ones. MJ carrying was one of the few logical things that occurred in Millar's run. Peter sure as hell did nothing intelligent in that arc.

Gwen stood up to her kidnappers as well. Without a gun. She never showed fear. But MJ did. ASM #127, she wouldn't report that sjhe saw the Vulture kill someone, because she was scared he get her.

And neither Gwen nor MJ let themselves get thrown off the bridge. They had no say in the matter whatsoever.

And when she is not kidnapped she is intereesting. She and Pete have her problems. She has a real job and career that Pete is not there for and when he comes home battered she wishes she could help him more but the most she can do is watch TLC anf fix him up (I like the friction and jealousy she feels when Black Cat helps out, feeling like she has more in common than her).

And this makes her unique, how? When she and Peter are together, they're affectionate with each other. They engage in the usual relationship stuff. Same thing with Gwen.

But in the end she is the one to lift Peter's spirits and kind of being an opposite making their relationship fun and they have become real partners over the years and she has become a great confidant.

First off, Peter and MJ are not opposites. It isn't as if where MJ is one way, Peter is the other extreme. They're different. But, because of the writing- you'd never really know it. So little of their unique personalities are ever presented, that all they are is two people who love each other. and apparently that's the end of their ability to communicate. No mention of Peter's scientific knowledge. No mention of MJ's career choices. Why she loves acting. Nothing.

But, everything you say about their relationship applies to Gwen. Only it applied to her first.

Gwen imo was too much like Peter

How is she too much like Peter? You can't have a relationship without mutually enjoying things.

and I never liked how when she went away she would spend the whole time crying and envisioning Peter's face every place she went and comes running back all is forgiven without a moment of talking about her problems.

Do you know what her problems were?

And it wasn't Gwen picturing Peter; It was Peter picturing Gwen. In that situation- there was no real problem between them. Only that Gwen wanted Peter to propose. She realized that she was putting too much pressure on him, because she knew she only wanted a proposal to fill the gap in her life left by her father's death.
Knowing this, she realized that regardless she and Peter loved each other and intended to build a life together. So there was no point in staying away.

And talk about returning with no discussion- what about MJ in ASM #50? In the Doc Ock storyline, MJ brought up a laundry list of problems between herself and Peter. And when she returned in #50- no discussion of any of them. She just said "she needed to hear he needed her" what nonsense. I kept waiting for the other problems to be addressed in subsequent issues, but nothing happened.

I mean it was the '60s but even then there was a layer under MJ that was untapped so she was more fun to read and you knew there was more there. And only Conaway was the first to tap into that in ASM #122.

ASM #122? By having her stay to support a friend who'd just lost his girlfriend? Please. That was no different than Gwen being there for Harry when he OD'd or visiting Flash after his return from Nam.

And as for Stan, I only know he said that he decided that Peter should date MJ for a time and sent the order down to Marvel but he did not have any intention that Gwen would get killed off and when he found out he ordered to bring her back. They tried miserably and that got scrapped.

Dude, none of that happened. There's been extensive explanation of the circumstances surrounding killing Gwen off. Interviews with everyone involved. It happened while Stan was away, and he signed off on it after the fact. John Romita SR. actually came up with the idea, noting that the comic strip by Milton Caniff "Terry & the Pirates" used such a device. Conway and Thomas agreed. At that point, Stan had pretty much stopped writing and editing, so it was out of his hands anyway. But he says all the time he didn't want Gwen killed. Even at his last comic con appearance in July.

And to an earlier point, eys Gwen and her death coming back to haunt Peter is a focal point in the comics ever since. But that doesn't mean MJ is a weak character, just that that was such a major point for Peter. It was his loss of innocence, he was no longer the misbeguiled youth but a man after that and it is like the end of "the good ol' days" and it was the first love of his life gone. That isn't something that would haunt ANYONE for the rest of their lives, but the point is Pete was resilent and moved on.

Not at all. There are several levels to Gwen's death. First, it isn't as if he doesn't have other people to mourn. He was more directly responsible for Gwen's Dad's death, using an untested formula to take down Ock. He's lucky there weren't more casualties. There's Uncle Ben. If it were merely about the loss of a loved one, they fill the bill as well.

And- Peter's point of "manhood" was long before Gwen's death. That was the Master Planner storyline. When he went beyond his perceived limits to save May. After that, Peter's whole persona changed. He became more confident.
He started hanging out with his peers. He started pursuing girls like Gwen and MJ, and unlike High School, he got them.

Plain and simple- Gwen's death represented 3 key things to Peter:

1. The loss- not of his first love (Which was Betty) But his TRUE LOVE.
2. The flipside of Ben's death. Someone died because he chose to act.
3. She died for one reason: She loved Peter Parker. Only because ofwho she loved, she was placed in harm's way.

So Peter, first off will never get over her death. He can't get over it and be the person he is, because her death was very much because of him. And- let's be clear- she's the woman he wanted to be with. There was no chance that anyone else- including MJ, could have taken Peter from Gwen.

Personally I'd like to see him every now and then mourn the loss of his daughter, but not so much as a mention other than he once said in The Other "I never gave MJ kids" but he DID. He should still be bitter about what Norman did there, but for some odd reason he is not.

Oh well.

Well this is wherein we see just how screwy Marvel's editorial policy is. There was a point when character decisions were made. Now, decisions are made based on image, perception and flawed anticipation of audience tastes.

Peter and Norman's relationship was screwed when Norman returned, Peter didn't go after him for Gwen's death. Even if he failed, he should have at least tried. And yes, May's death as well. How can Spider-Man spend his life fighting for others nad do nothing about the murder of an innocent child- that above all else is his child. They don't let Peter have real human emotions and reactions anymore. Only contrived responses that will support a multi-issue story arc. This shows just how far off the mark Marvel is.
 
Venomfan said:
mj can do all those things, except stand up to spider-man, cuz that would be stupid, unless she pulls a flash thompson... i really hope marvel doesnt read this thread, if they ever kill mj off or get pete a new woman there will be outrage, the majority of spidey fans have grown up with MJ as the one and only girl for peter and we dont want otherwise

You bring up the real point. That for many people all of this is more about the girl you know, and not a point of the stronger character.

But in my case, I'm not doing that. MJ was the first girlfriend I knew as well, and I watched as their relationship developed in the 70's. My first issue of Spidey was #127, the first story to focus on MJ. I got to know Gwen from buying back issues. I just think she's simply the character with more potential to fit into Peter's life- both everyday and Spider-Man.

Not that I'm saying Marvel's writers would be able to exploit her potential, I just know she has it.
 
I think she does as all of Pete's girls have. It is almost unfathomable to believe this is the same Liz and Betty of the '60s because of the tragedy of their marriages have shaped them so much. And Flash helped shape both and he has changed so radically himself. He became a bad fiance (or was it just lover?), basically cheated with Betty on Ned Leeds, an alocoholic and Pete's best friend who longs for love and was his best man. Now they kind of just screwed that all up.


And Peter and Gwen were the first true love, though he did claim quite frequently early on his love for Betty. I too had to learn about most of this in back issues I found and tpb I could afford. I own copies of the original Master Planner and while it is a change in his personality he is still a youth who is suffering. He just grows confidence and is more social on that I agree (though he really doesn't make peace with the whole gang until about issue #40) and in Master Planner he speaks of his undying love for Betty. Yet by the time the great Lizard arc in the 40s comes around he talks about her as like a sister because his eye is wandering to Gwen as he is dating MJ (if dating is an appropriate word).

And it has been a while but if I remember the drug issues (which I own two of and it in tpb) Gwen is in London because Pete dind't propose to her and he didn't find her when he got to London because she would put Spidey and Pete in London together. She then goes outside and sees Pete's face everywhere I thought and decides she is not over him and will forgive him. Shen then is at the end of the story back in NYC all forgiven and forgotten.

And I was just saying what Stan Lee said in an interview a few years ago. I take it with a grain of salt as he has conflicting stoires on other issues but I was just relaying what he said once in an interview about the death. As for the death happening, I thought it was the pivotal point in the Spider-Man mythos. After her death he would never be the same. And while he had Uncle Ben's death (and Cap Stacy's too, though he was not close enough to Cap Stacy IMO for it to be as big of a deal)....Gwen just gave us something we hadn't seen before. It drove him over the edge and after that he was an adult while he was still "just a kid" to quote the movie beforehand. I think it really changed the way the character acted.


And I do agree with you that the comis are a joke now. Peter wil lsay things or come oup with thought processes that conflict with what he said 40 years ago, 20 years ago or just half a year ago. They only care about making the story work and plug in generalizations and the appearence of depth into it, however they want. I would love to have some scenes where he just talks about a day at work and MJ tlaks about her show or her ambitions for her career. I'd love for him not to betray what has been 40 years (or 30 years if you want to get down to it) of depth and build up for the story.


It appeared in Revelations Norman died again but once Norman was back Spidey should have been on a one man rampage to bring him down if not for Gwen's sake then for the recent loss of his daughter. And now if he is so worried about not providing kids for himself and MJ he has his "second chance" why not them try for a baby. Why not them set a memorial tombstone for their daughter they could visit once a year on her birthday? These things would be so nice now.
 
DACrowe said:
It appeared in Revelations Norman died again but once Norman was back Spidey should have been on a one man rampage to bring him down if not for Gwen's sake then for the recent loss of his daughter.

Or his clone :woot:

DACrowe said:
And now if he is so worried about not providing kids for himself and MJ he has his "second chance" why not them try for a baby. Why not them set a memorial tombstone for their daughter they could visit once a year on her birthday? These things would be so nice now.

Yes they would be. Gwen flashbacks are getting REALLY tiresome (except the good ones like Blue). Mourn someone else already.
 
Or freakin' baby May. A parent who loses their daughter especially at birth (and this was not a still born, **** you Joey Q. we all know GG took/killed her) would be in grieving or mourning for a very long time. And to be fair I think in the late '90s there were a handful of stories that handelled it. Like a very good Lizard story where Curt strikes a nerve about Pete not knowing a thing about parenting and having lost May Pete almost punches his unthinking friend in the face.

but it is like (and intentionally) they forgot May ever existed. And as I said if JMS wants to make it a plot point they want to have kids and miss May (or at least the presence of a child) than why not try again then?
 
DACrowe said:
And Peter and Gwen were the first true love, though he did claim quite frequently early on his love for Betty. I too had to learn about most of this in back issues I found and tpb I could afford. I own copies of the original Master Planner and while it is a change in his personality he is still a youth who is suffering. He just grows confidence and is more social on that I agree (though he really doesn't make peace with the whole gang until about issue #40) and in Master Planner he speaks of his undying love for Betty. Yet by the time the great Lizard arc in the 40s comes around he talks about her as like a sister because his eye is wandering to Gwen as he is dating MJ (if dating is an appropriate word).

To this day, he's a youth suffering. And he's making more immature decisions as time goes on. Unmasking, being Tony Stark's tool, moving into Stark Tower, busting the Goblin out of prison. But the Master Planner was his step into adulthood. There's been no event since that so clearly showed that type of development. Certainly not Gwen's death. What Gwen's death showed was how deeply engrained the concept of power and responsiblity was etched into his being. That even under the most dire of circumstances he couldn't be shaken from his mission. I'll say again- he was right in not killing Norman then. He's wrong in subsequent stories however. In ASM #121 Norman was a sick man with uncontrollable obsessions. He didn't even really mean to kill Gwen. It just happened. But since his resurrection, he's been portrayed as a simplistic mustache twirling villain. Now, truthfully, Peter needs to stop him; not out of revenge, but in defense of innocent people. Norman is now someone with a deathwish. Peter putting his lights out wouldn't in anyway lower him to Norman's level.

As for Betty, he's off of her (As happens with first loves) not too long after she leaves. I believe in ASM #35 JJJ's new secretary hands Peter a photo he gave Betty that reads: To Betty from Peter, Forever, and Peter remarks that he must've given it to her a lifetime ago, before tossing it in the trash. By ASM #38, Peter is saying that his concern for her (No one's yet heard from her) was less about love and more concern about her as a human being.

And it has been a while but if I remember the drug issues (which I own two of and it in tpb) Gwen is in London because Pete dind't propose to her and he didn't find her when he got to London because she would put Spidey and Pete in London together. She then goes outside and sees Pete's face everywhere I thought and decides she is not over him and will forgive him. Shen then is at the end of the story back in NYC all forgiven and forgotten.

I'll clarify this for you. In ASM #97 page 8 Peter is outside thinking of Gwen and sees her face everywhere.

In ASM #98 Gwen goes for walk to think things over. No images of Peter anywhere. Just her thinking that she put pressure on Peter for the wrong reasons. And there's nothing to forgive him of. She knows she had no right to expect that he propose to her at that moment.

And I was just saying what Stan Lee said in an interview a few years ago. I take it with a grain of salt as he has conflicting stoires on other issues but I was just relaying what he said once in an interview about the death.

I've seen and read dozens of Stan's comments on this. And they've been pretty consistent. I've NEVER heard Stan say that he wanted Peter to date MJ. Conway wanted Peter to date MJ. Of course Romita preferred MJ because he co-created her. Although i disagree that he made MJ look better. Gwen always had a classier look to her which made her much more attractive IMO.

And let me say this isn't MJ hate. Unlike the Gwen haters who've been posting, I can honestly say I love MJ. And had the relationship (and her) been well-handled I'd be the first to say stop the focus on Gwen and just stick with MJ. But that hasn't panned out, and like I said, the Peter-Gwen relationship just reads as stronger to me. I think the biggest reason is that everything that suggests real love between Peter and MJ has already happened with Gwen. There isn't a unique love story between Peter and MJ. If they let MJ remain the sort of flighty party girl but showed how she could be that and still have a real love with Peter- while Peter is still the science nerd/kick ass, wise-cracking superhero and they show why he could love this party girl then this would be a unique love story. But they instead write MJ as being a Gwen clone. So i'm saying if you go this route, you might as well just keep the real Gwen. Especially since Gwen has her own unique qualities to bring to the table.

As for the death happening, I thought it was the pivotal point in the Spider-Man mythos. After her death he would never be the same. And while he had Uncle Ben's death (and Cap Stacy's too, though he was not close enough to Cap Stacy IMO for it to be as big of a deal)....Gwen just gave us something we hadn't seen before. It drove him over the edge and after that he was an adult while he was still "just a kid" to quote the movie beforehand. I think it really changed the way the character acted.

Did they? But let's consider this- what's defines a child? What defines a man? A child has a limited view of the world. a limited understanding of consequence. A child needs guidance. A child has little inner reflection. When Peter was trapped under the debris in ASM #33, he had to get past all of that. This was his passage into manhood. Not to mention his stepping onward to college, his moving on to his first adult (And I mean ADULT) relationship with Gwen. And- were Peter not already a man- he wouldn't have handled Gwen's death as he did.

After her death, he was angry but there was no actual change in his persona.

It appeared in Revelations Norman died again but once Norman was back Spidey should have been on a one man rampage to bring him down if not for Gwen's sake then for the recent loss of his daughter. And now if he is so worried about not providing kids for himself and MJ he has his "second chance" why not them try for a baby. Why not them set a memorial tombstone for their daughter they could visit once a year on her birthday? These things would be so nice now.

Well, I could easily be wrong- but from my recollection, the MK:SM Millar arc was the first time it was confirmed to Peter that Osborn killed May. I thought (and granted my Spidey reading during that period was piecemeal at best) that Peter & MJ thought she was stilllborn- and- then of course Marvel went on the policy of not mentioning the child at all.

But as far as Gwen, simply Osborn's reappearance should have driven Peter into a frenzy about making him pay for Gwen's death. Not because he loved her more than MJ or any such thing. Just because Osborn committed a murder and should pay for it. Sure, Marvel wanted to keep him around to be arch villain :down but Peter should have tried. It would have even been fitting if that was what finally put Osborn in jail at the beginning of MK:SM.
 
Indeed it would have been. Personally I think Osborn should've killed himself at the end of A Death in the Family, it would not have been quite as good as #122 (my favorite Spidey issue) but pretty damn close.

I do tend to remember that when Osborn resurfaced after REvelations and bought half the Daily Bugle Spidey beat the **** out of an unarmed Osborn and I forget the reason (most likely he hated Osborn) and did it again when he framed Spidey for murder. Both times he makes himself the villain and Osborn the unwitting victim. But that was as far as his aggression towards Osborn has really gone in recent years (though in Jenkins' part of Trick of Light I recall GG saying "As you failed to save your uncle, your daughter, your wife [presumed dead at the time] and that stupid little Blonde whose neck I snapped" or something to that regard and Pete is screaming "Damn you" as the yfight.

But those are the only two examples I can think of him showing rage over Gwen (more Gwen) and May since GG returned. Though I liked the ending where he spares and psychologically defeats Osborn in A Death in the Family.

And I do agree that ASM #33 marked a major turning point for the character. This was the point where he went from the bookworm of the first 32 issues to the more confidant if a bit dorky college bound youth. And he starts speaking more maturely and with an edge of confidence and knowing-experience after this point. I agree. But AI still look at him as a kid in the sense that he is a bit nieve (IMO) and still sees the world in this black/white thing that he can overcome. It is when Gwen dies that he gets more cynical and sees more gries. He soon finishes college after this and is teaching in grad school (before dropping out) and seems to just be more world-weary after losing Gwen.

It did engrain his responsibility and its cost into his head but it also seemed to just make him seem a little less innocent. And I think innocence is part of youth and that was shattered by GG. Now sure, maybe we are romanticizing it but I think it was summed up well in DeMatthis' the Kiss with John Romita Sr. drawing in the late '80s I believe (maybe early '90s) where Parker is reviewing his last date with GWen and takes that stance, it may not be correct and just memories flooding back filled with nostolgia but he likes to think it was like that. He likes to think that Gwen made him a better man so he could get past MJ's party girl facade, but then again he could jsut be interrpruting things how he wants to see them.

And I thought that was a very good adaptation of their relationship (a little better IMO, if not as deep, as Loeb's Spider-Man: Blue).
 
Hopefully it's the Black-Cat (That chicks smokin) I always liked her even tho she ran into some bad story lines and writers that didn’t know what to do with her. The Original Black-Cat was done nice sitting on the boarder line between good and evil getting spidey into trouble.

2006_05-mv044.jpg
 

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