DACrowe said:
Oh c'mon Dragon, MJ has been a lot more than hostage material. Sure she has been kdianpped a few times (as you mentioned) but you also mentioned Gwen was too. And MJ stood up for herself. I think Millar purposely made the point that MJ on the bridge woke up pulled a gun and shot GG instead of letting herself get thrown off.
MJ packing in an era of "Girls with guns" is nothing special. Especially since she
knew her husband was facing a super powered homicidal maniac, who tended to strike at him through his loved ones. MJ carrying was one of the few logical things that occurred in Millar's run. Peter sure as hell did nothing intelligent in that arc.
Gwen stood up to her kidnappers as well.
Without a gun. She never showed fear. But MJ did. ASM #127, she wouldn't report that sjhe saw the Vulture kill someone, because she was scared he get her.
And neither Gwen nor MJ let themselves get thrown off the bridge. They had no say in the matter whatsoever.
And when she is not kidnapped she is intereesting. She and Pete have her problems. She has a real job and career that Pete is not there for and when he comes home battered she wishes she could help him more but the most she can do is watch TLC anf fix him up (I like the friction and jealousy she feels when Black Cat helps out, feeling like she has more in common than her).
And this makes her unique, how? When she and Peter are together, they're affectionate with each other. They engage in the usual relationship stuff. Same thing with Gwen.
But in the end she is the one to lift Peter's spirits and kind of being an opposite making their relationship fun and they have become real partners over the years and she has become a great confidant.
First off, Peter and MJ are not opposites. It isn't as if where MJ is one way, Peter is the other extreme. They're different. But, because of the writing- you'd never really know it. So little of their unique personalities are ever presented, that all they are is two people who love each other. and apparently that's the end of their ability to communicate. No mention of Peter's scientific knowledge. No mention of MJ's career choices. Why she loves acting. Nothing.
But, everything you say about their relationship applies to Gwen. Only it applied to her
first.
Gwen imo was too much like Peter
How is she too much like Peter? You can't have a relationship without mutually enjoying things.
and I never liked how when she went away she would spend the whole time crying and envisioning Peter's face every place she went and comes running back all is forgiven without a moment of talking about her problems.
Do you know what her problems were?
And it wasn't Gwen picturing Peter; It was Peter picturing Gwen. In that situation- there was no real problem between them. Only that Gwen wanted Peter to propose. She realized that she was putting too much pressure on him, because she knew she only wanted a proposal to fill the gap in her life left by her father's death.
Knowing this, she realized that regardless she and Peter loved each other and intended to build a life together. So there was no point in staying away.
And talk about returning with no discussion- what about MJ in ASM #50? In the Doc Ock storyline, MJ brought up a laundry list of problems between herself and Peter. And when she returned in #50- no discussion of any of them. She just said "she needed to hear he needed her" what nonsense. I kept waiting for the other problems to be addressed in subsequent issues, but nothing happened.
I mean it was the '60s but even then there was a layer under MJ that was untapped so she was more fun to read and you knew there was more there. And only Conaway was the first to tap into that in ASM #122.
ASM #122? By having her stay to support a friend who'd just lost his girlfriend? Please. That was no different than Gwen being there for Harry when he OD'd or visiting Flash after his return from Nam.
And as for Stan, I only know he said that he decided that Peter should date MJ for a time and sent the order down to Marvel but he did not have any intention that Gwen would get killed off and when he found out he ordered to bring her back. They tried miserably and that got scrapped.
Dude, none of that happened. There's been extensive explanation of the circumstances surrounding killing Gwen off. Interviews with everyone involved. It happened while Stan was away, and he signed off on it after the fact. John Romita SR. actually came up with the idea, noting that the comic strip by Milton Caniff "Terry & the Pirates" used such a device. Conway and Thomas agreed. At that point, Stan had pretty much stopped writing and editing, so it was out of his hands anyway. But he says all the time he didn't want Gwen killed. Even at his last comic con appearance in July.
And to an earlier point, eys Gwen and her death coming back to haunt Peter is a focal point in the comics ever since. But that doesn't mean MJ is a weak character, just that that was such a major point for Peter. It was his loss of innocence, he was no longer the misbeguiled youth but a man after that and it is like the end of "the good ol' days" and it was the first love of his life gone. That isn't something that would haunt ANYONE for the rest of their lives, but the point is Pete was resilent and moved on.
Not at all. There are several levels to Gwen's death. First, it isn't as if he doesn't have other people to mourn. He was more directly responsible for Gwen's Dad's death, using an untested formula to take down Ock. He's lucky there weren't more casualties. There's Uncle Ben. If it were merely about the loss of a loved one, they fill the bill as well.
And- Peter's point of "manhood" was long before Gwen's death. That was the Master Planner storyline. When he went beyond his perceived limits to save May. After that, Peter's whole persona changed. He became more confident.
He started hanging out with his peers. He started pursuing girls like Gwen and MJ, and unlike High School, he got them.
Plain and simple- Gwen's death represented 3 key things to Peter:
1. The loss- not of his first love (Which was Betty) But his TRUE LOVE.
2. The flipside of Ben's death. Someone died because he chose to act.
3. She died for one reason: She loved Peter Parker. Only because ofwho she loved, she was placed in harm's way.
So Peter, first off will never get over her death. He can't get over it and be the person he is, because her death was very much because of him. And- let's be clear- she's the woman he wanted to be with. There was no chance that anyone else- including MJ, could have taken Peter from Gwen.
Personally I'd like to see him every now and then mourn the loss of his daughter, but not so much as a mention other than he once said in The Other "I never gave MJ kids" but he DID. He should still be bitter about what Norman did there, but for some odd reason he is not.
Oh well.
Well this is wherein we see just how screwy Marvel's editorial policy is. There was a point when character decisions were made. Now, decisions are made based on image, perception and flawed anticipation of audience tastes.
Peter and Norman's relationship was screwed when Norman returned, Peter didn't go after him for Gwen's death. Even if he failed, he should have at least tried. And yes, May's death as well. How can Spider-Man spend his life fighting for others nad do nothing about the murder of an innocent child- that above all else
is his child. They don't let Peter have real human emotions and reactions anymore. Only contrived responses that will support a multi-issue story arc. This shows just how far off the mark Marvel is.
) and goes "AHA! I got it, I'll introduce Gwen and say it was only her clone who died and in the same ish I'll kill off MJ so Gwen can console Peter and he is single again!"
t: 
but Peter should have tried. It would have even been fitting if that was what finally put Osborn in jail at the beginning of MK:SM.
