Comics So JMS and Joey Q know they screwed up...

[Cullen]

I always wanted to write fer Marvel...but not if this' th' **** I'll be writin' when I get there.

You said it

 

[Gregatron]

They did wink to the audience quite a bit, which is one of the things I found enjoyable. They did not, however, wink to say how dumb the stories were.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. There were winks, but they were fun winks that didn't disparage the material. The material, characters, and fans (even the lunatic fringe which has now become the majority) were always treated with respect and dignity.

 

[Gregatron]

God damnit...they broke up Scott and Jean and now this...leave one marriage untainted...MU is starting to look like Hollywood.

Important safety tip:

Reed and Sue were a couple from the very start.

Scott and Jean became attracted to each other early on.


Spider-Man, however, had a slew of girlfriends. The only person who was close to being "the one" was Gwen Stacy. Regardless, Spidey was in-and-out of relationships for 25 years until he suddenly married Mary Jane (who retroactively became "the one").

Those other relationships (Reed/Sue, Scott/Jean) are core elements of their respective books that were there early on.

Spider-Man's is not.

Or, at least, it didn't used to be.

 

[stillanerd]

Well....they're supposed to be split apart during the Civil War, from what I've heard. Nothing permanent, but seeing as how Reed sides with the Pro-registration side, and Sue is anti-registration, there are bound to be some irreconcilable differences there.

Hey, Marvel, why do you HATE marriage so much?

I must be a mutant since I love my wife and am happily married.

At least, I was a mutant until that "House of M" thing...

Hey, Shin, let's be fair here. Marvel doesn't hate ALL marriages. I mean, look at how they're promoting the upcoming wedding of Black Panther and Storm. Joe Q is comparing it to the wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana (and we all know how THAT marriage turned out, don't we kids?)

Marvel does like marriage...just certain marriages. If two comic book characters who were created in entirely seperate comic books, each one with their own template and milieu, then not only can they have--no, MUST HAVE--a successful romance, they are also marraigable material--and woe to anyone who criticizes them for how it's nothing more than a sales stunt and that such relationships NEVER LAST in comic books. However, comic book characters, who were created exclusively for a particular title, and who are involved in romantic pairing and relationships, like Spider-Man and Mary Jane, and Reed and Sue--THOSE marriages are BAD and NEED to be--no, MUST BE--dismantled in the eyes of Joe Q.

The Quesadese definition of marriage: the coming together of two people for the sole purpose of generating profit for me--Joe Quesada.

 

[Gregatron]

My rule of thumb:

Reed and Sue are the one rock-solid married couple at Marvel (with the occasional argument), and they are the cornerstone of the MU's couples; everyone else's relationships are always in flux somehow (be it fights, break-ups, tragedies, etc.).

 

[ragingdemon155]

My rule of thumb:

Reed and Sue are the one rock-solid married couple at Marvel (with the occasional argument), and they are the cornerstone of the MU's couples; everyone else's relationships are always in flux somehow (be it fights, break-ups, tragedies, etc.).

And that's what I don't understand.

Why is Joey Q so scared of "marriage" yet the idea of stingers, Spider-man flying, Spider-man shedding his skin and being reborn, gwen sleeping with Norman and having his babies all sound "amazing and groundbreaking" to him?

 

[shinlyle]

Hey, Shin, let's be fair here. Marvel doesn't hate ALL marriages. I mean, look at how they're promote the upcoming wedding of Black Panther and Storm. Joe Q is comparing it to the wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana (and we all know how THAT marriage turned out, don't we kids?)

Marvel does like marriage. If two comic book characters who were created in entirely seperate comic books, each one with their own template and milieu, then not only can they have--no, MUST HAVE--a successful romance, but are also marraigable material--and woe to anyone who criticizes them for how it's nothing more than a sales stunt and that such relationships NEVER LAST in comic books. However, comic book characters, who were created exclusively for a particular title, and who are involved in romantic pairing and relationships, like Spider-Man and Mary Jane, and Reed and Sue--THOSE marriages are BAD and NEED to be--no, MUST BE--dismantled in the eyes of Joe Q.

The Quesadese definition of marriage: the coming together of two people for the sole purpose of generating profit for me--Joe Quesada.

Beautiful post....so true!

 

[shinlyle]

And that's what I don't understand.

Why is Joey Q so scared of "marriage" yet the idea of stingers, Spider-man flying, Spider-man shedding his skin and being reborn, gwen sleeping with Norman and having his babies all sound "amazing and groundbreaking" to him?

Because he's so far out of touch with these characters that he only sees them as dollar signs, not loved fictional characters that have endured for many years.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Hey, Shin, let's be fair here. Marvel doesn't hate ALL marriages. I mean, look at how they're promote the upcoming wedding of Black Panther and Storm. Joe Q is comparing it to the wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana (and we all know how THAT marriage turned out, don't we kids?)

Marvel does like marriage. If two comic book characters who were created in entirely seperate comic books, each one with their own template and milieu, then not only can they have--no, MUST HAVE--a successful romance, but are also marraigable material--and woe to anyone who criticizes them for how it's nothing more than a sales stunt and that such relationships NEVER LAST in comic books. However, comic book characters, who were created exclusively for a particular title, and who are involved in romantic pairing and relationships, like Spider-Man and Mary Jane, and Reed and Sue--THOSE marriages are BAD and NEED to be--no, MUST BE--dismantled in the eyes of Joe Q.

The Quesadese definition of marriage: the coming together of two people for the sole purpose of generating profit for me--Joe Quesada.

Scott and Jean is another great example...two characters who from the beginning were written to be with eachother...oh no, gone

 

[ragingdemon155]

Scott and Jean is another great example...two characters who from the beginning were written to be with eachother...oh no, gone

I too...miss Scott and Jean.

 

[Gregatron]

Something interesting to note...

The people who won't even consider giving up the marriage insist that the opponents "want to go back to the old status quo". However, the notion of a married Spider-Man does, in fact, inflict a far more inflexible status quo on the character.


Now, not to say that I would favor something like divorce, but that would fit in with the "kid who can't get a break/lovable loser" theme that Spider-Man used to have.

But really, when has Spider-Man been like that in recent times? Happily married to a model. Successful photography career, later successful teaching career. Member of the New Avengers. Living in Avengers Tower.

Today, something like a divorce would seem like a mild blip on the radar for this happy, succesful adult.

Back in the day, it would have been a crushing blow to our young, struggling student, and he would have heroically struggled through his pain and grief over it.



Even if the marriage is somehow negated, the obsessive fanboys/creators running the medium into the ground will not allow anyone to forget, heal, and move on after the rough period following the dissolution of the marriage.

Which is exactly what happened with Gwen Stacy after her death.

"Those who fail to remember history..."

 

[Doc Destruction]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

 

[shinlyle]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

Or both!

 

[ragingdemon155]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

Agreed.

 

[Cullen]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

Just for the record, I've never liked the Peter/M.J. thang and even I agree with you. Back in it's early days, there were moments when I found the marriage tolerable, even borderline OK. It can be that way again. Maybe even better.

This isn't what I'm hoping for, though, but I do think you're right...

 

[ScottishFogg]

what issue was this in? not the June issue . . .

 

[Herr Logan]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

Unfortunately, there are sooo many uncool things that could be done with their marriage as well, and they've already been getting that ball rolling.

I'm not advocating breaking up the marriage-- as I said, I never would have had him get married in the first place, but breaking them up or killing MJ will just ruin everything.
Just venting my nihilistic feelings towards those blithering hacks that currently control Spider-Man comics, is all.

 

[spideylover89]

Something interesting to note...

The people who won't even consider giving up the marriage insist that the opponents "want to go back to the old status quo". However, the notion of a married Spider-Man does, in fact, inflict a far more inflexible status quo on the character.


Now, not to say that I would favor something like divorce, but that would fit in with the "kid who can't get a break/lovable loser" theme that Spider-Man used to have.

But really, when has Spider-Man been like that in recent times? Happily married to a model. Successful photography career, later successful teaching career. Member of the New Avengers. Living in Avengers Tower.

Today, something like a divorce would seem like a mild blip on the radar for this happy, succesful adult.

Back in the day, it would have been a crushing blow to our young, struggling student, and he would have heroically struggled through his pain and grief over it.



Even if the marriage is somehow negated, the obsessive fanboys/creators running the medium into the ground will not allow anyone to forget, heal, and move on after the rough period following the dissolution of the marriage.

Which is exactly what happened with Gwen Stacy after her death.

"Those who fail to remember history..."

Now out of all the stuff you mentioned, the marriage is the least of their problems. You want Pete to remain a loser then get rid of the Avengers tower and start paying more attention to his career. pete is almost NEVER in school anymore and yet we never see him suffer any consequences for it. He can easily have an unstable job considering how little he shows up, but no it's the marriage that is wrong.
Just because he's married doesn't mean he can't be a lovable loser. There are so many other aspects of life that the writers can mess with, but they don't because they are lazy.

 

[Gregatron]

Now out of all the stuff you mentioned, the marriage is the least of their problems. You want Pete to remain a loser then get rid of the Avengers tower and start paying more attention to his career. pete is almost NEVER in school anymore and yet we never see him suffer any consequences for it. He can easily have an unstable job considering how little he shows up, but no it's the marriage that is wrong.
Just because he's married doesn't mean he can't be a lovable loser. There are so many other aspects of life that the writers can mess with, but they don't because they are lazy.

By defintion, a marriage is a loving, stable union between two adults. This is not what Spider-Man is about. Spider-Man is about the adventures of a heroic youngster named Peter Parker, NOT "the adventures of Peter and Mary Jane, a happily married couple (and maybe Aunt May) who sometimes argue".

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Marvel is so full of itself it takes all this time for them to even say that what they did was nonsense...sad.

 

[roach]

By defintion, a marriage is a loving, stable union between two adults. This is not what Spider-Man is about. Spider-Man is about the adventures of a heroic youngster named Peter Parker, NOT "the adventures of Peter and Mary Jane, a happily married couple (and maybe Aunt May) who sometimes argue".

the character has passed you my friend....if you want to read teenage Peter stories then there are the reprints and the Ultimate stories

 

[Gregatron]

the character has passed you my friend....if you want to read teenage Peter stories then there are the reprints and the Ultimate stories

That's what everyone says, over and over and over.

But splintering one fantastic concept (and character) into "a different Spider-Man for every taste and every age bracket" is still a huge mistake.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Or, it could be because they have no case. What they have is an opinion, one that they can't back up as being "correct", because the facts simply aren't there.

They come on here and start up ten "What du yu think about da Iron sPidy soot" threads, and then they run off. That's about the limit of their effectiveness, and their lack of contribution to threads where the creators admit that the ideas beign discussed are flops, well, that pretty much states that they are infact, worthless, mindless, cowards.

If you have an opinion and a well-tuned mind, angry, bitter fanboys like us shouldn't ward you off from this thread.

If you are too frightened to post here, that's your own issue. It's not like we can physically harm you. Get over yourselves.

And isn't this what Flonk is talking about? You say what they think isn't "correct" because they don't have "facts" to back it up. Yet in the next paragraph you call posters who differ from your opinion worthless, mindless cowards.

So, these people are worthless, mindless cowards because they don't AGREE with you? Right. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe they don't want to be harrassed by strangers who think they know it all about a fictional comic book character.

Not everyone on these boards is going to write a 15 paragraph post about Spider-Man. Some people don't have the time or want to take out the time to do that. Some people just want to share their reactions with other people who read comic books. And then when they say, "I like the Iron Spidey costume" they get like 6 or 7 posters who have to drop down and make fun of them like some kind of secret fraternity of Spider-Man fans.

And when a poster does give an explanation of why they like something, or dislike something, they are still confronted with posters who have to insult someone simply because they differ on opinions. It's on both sides.

I'm no innocent here. I've had run in's with posters on here. But it has nothing to do with opinions or thoughts. It mostly has to do with the attitude that gets shown when someone posts something that the "fraternity" doesn't enjoy. Arrogance and condescending comments because posters think they know more about a fictional character than others.

Maybe instead of treating these "worthless, mindless cowards" like they're below you. Maybe you should educate them and help them.

But if you want people to explain to you why they like something maybe you should try not to insult people after they do. Because, either way, no matter how well somebody puts something some posters are just going to be upset because they don't agree with it. And insulting a poster because he/she says what he/she thinks, no matter how large or small the post is, is pretty hateful. Not everyone agrees with you. Because a small general population of a message board agrees they don't enjoy the state of Spider-Man makes you think that EVERY Spider-Man fan should feel that way?

Not everyone sees things in the same light.

I know the state of Spider-Man isn't the greatest in the world. But just because things aren't going so well doesn't mean I'm going to hate EVERY SINGLE THING THAT IS DONE IN THE SPIDER-MAN UNIVERSE. I enjoyed the totem saga. I loved the Book of Ezekiel storyline. Sins Past was a horrible idea. The Skin Deep arc was boring and a rehash of Molten Man. The New Avengers arc was fantastic. The Other was very mediocre and for all these new powers you'd think it would have had more of an impact. Hudlin's portion of it was like having a drill going into your skull. And JMS got a little overzealous with the totem aspect of the story. It should have been left alone at the end of Book of Ezekiel. And I like the new suit for what it's purpose is. To create a stronger bond between Peter and Tony. It's a plot device and the classic suit will be back in no time.

I'm not like everyone else here. I'm not going to call for JMS to be burned at the stake and I'm not going to call Joe Quesada a fat piece of crap all day long. JMS is a good writer and he's the one who got me back into the Spidey comics. Quesada, I don't agree with him most of the time, but we're stuck with him as EIC. There really isn't much we can do about that.

Because I can find enjoyment from certain stories and aspects of the stories...that must make me less of a fan? Because I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs that the "616 Spider-Man is DEAD!!" that makes me less of a fan in some posters eyes? Sounds to me like some people, even though their age says their grown up, need to grow up.

 

[LarryLegend]

By defintion, a marriage is a loving, stable union between two adults. This is not what Spider-Man is about. Spider-Man is about the adventures of a heroic youngster named Peter Parker, NOT "the adventures of Peter and Mary Jane, a happily married couple (and maybe Aunt May) who sometimes argue".

Greg, Peter hasn't been a youngster for quite some time. Heck he toyed with marrying Gwen and he would have been 19 or 20. Get off the Peter should be in High School kick.

 

[shinlyle]

And isn't this what Flonk is talking about? You say what they think isn't "correct" because they don't have "facts" to back it up. Yet in the next paragraph you call posters who differ from your opinion worthless, mindless cowards.

So, these people are worthless, mindless cowards because they don't AGREE with you? Right. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe they don't want to be harrassed by strangers who think they know it all about a fictional comic book character.

Not everyone on these boards is going to write a 15 paragraph post about Spider-Man. Some people don't have the time or want to take out the time to do that. Some people just want to share their reactions with other people who read comic books. And then when they say, "I like the Iron Spidey costume" they get like 6 or 7 posters who have to drop down and make fun of them like some kind of secret fraternity of Spider-Man fans.

And when a poster does give an explanation of why they like something, or dislike something, they are still confronted with posters who have to insult someone simply because they differ on opinions. It's on both sides.

I'm no innocent here. I've had run in's with posters on here. But it has nothing to do with opinions or thoughts. It mostly has to do with the attitude that gets shown when someone posts something that the "fraternity" doesn't enjoy. Arrogance and condescending comments because posters think they know more about a fictional character than others.

Maybe instead of treating these "worthless, mindless cowards" like they're below you. Maybe you should educate them and help them.

But if you want people to explain to you why they like something maybe you should try not to insult people after they do. Because, either way, no matter how well somebody puts something some posters are just going to be upset because they don't agree with it. And insulting a poster because he/she says what he/she thinks, no matter how large or small the post is, is pretty hateful. Not everyone agrees with you. Because a small general population of a message board agrees they don't enjoy the state of Spider-Man makes you think that EVERY Spider-Man fan should feel that way?

Not everyone sees things in the same light.

I know the state of Spider-Man isn't the greatest in the world. But just because things aren't going so well doesn't mean I'm going to hate EVERY SINGLE THING THAT IS DONE IN THE SPIDER-MAN UNIVERSE. I enjoyed the totem saga. I loved the Book of Ezekiel storyline. Sins Past was a horrible idea. The Skin Deep arc was boring and a rehash of Molten Man. The New Avengers arc was fantastic. The Other was very mediocre and for all these new powers you'd think it would have had more of an impact. Hudlin's portion of it was like having a drill going into your skull. And JMS got a little overzealous with the totem aspect of the story. It should have been left alone at the end of Book of Ezekiel. And I like the new suit for what it's purpose is. To create a stronger bond between Peter and Tony. It's a plot device and the classic suit will be back in no time.

I'm not like everyone else here. I'm not going to call for JMS to be burned at the stake and I'm not going to call Joe Quesada a fat piece of crap all day long. JMS is a good writer and he's the one who got me back into the Spidey comics. Quesada, I don't agree with him most of the time, but we're stuck with him as EIC. There really isn't much we can do about that.

Because I can find enjoyment from certain stories and aspects of the stories...that must make me less of a fan? Because I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs that the "616 Spider-Man is DEAD!!" that makes me less of a fan in some posters eyes? Sounds to me like some people, even though their age says their grown up, need to grow up.

So...if we start up topics about how Joey Q and JMS sucks and they always will, and then run and hide every time someone tries to debate with us, that'll make you happy?

Please.

There have been a dozen or so Iron Spidey threads popping up over the last week in support of a costume that roughly 70% of the posters on this board hate. Then, when the people behind the changes (in costume and character) admit that they screwed up, all their little lap-dog supporters run off and refuse to comment? What does that make them? Cowards. No way around it.

Where is Iron Spidy (the poster) nowadays? Where is Kainedamo? Where is Won'08? They all seem to appear with some asanine topic about how JMS is a Genius or the "Other" ruled or some such crap, and then they are gone. Now that the professionals have admitted that the ideas they've been spewing for months are utter crap, all the trolls have returned underground. That's what I'm saying. Did I call you by name? No. I have nothing against you, even though you have a freakin' mad-on for me. You post here regardless of whether or not anyone likes you. That is annoying, but it is also to be commended.

I'm tired of people not having the balls to stand up for what they feel. Some people are such mindless slaves to marvel, that I'm sure they'll be in here soon talking about how they don't like "The Other" anymore, simply because JMS and Joey Q said it was crap. It's going to happen. Just wait and see. People will change their tunes and start embracing whatever else they are spoon-fed. Proof that they didn't form an opinion of their own on the story, they just believed the hype and bought into it. That makes them mindless.

As for your "Joey C is EIC and there's nothing we can do about it" crap, you need to stall that s***. If you really believe tha there is nothing that you can do, then you are spineless. You want to get rid of him, then vote with your wallet! Quit buying New Avengers or Whatever book he's hyping that maybe doesn't deserve the praise. There's always something you can do! Buying books you despise and going along with things you disagree with is never the way to be, man.I don't like the direction of ASM or FNSM, so guess what? I'm dropping them. That's right. Marvel is losing 6 bucks and some change every month until I start buying those books again. Will that get Joey Q to resign and turn Marvel over to someone with more respect for the characters? No. What if everyone did that, though? What if people quit incessantly b****ing about the books they buy, and just quit buying them when they stopped liking them? Change would follow.

So, if I offended you....tough. I'm not here to be liked. I'm not aiming for you. I'm not sitting here saying "Let's hit Spideyinatree right between the eyes". I'm simply pointing out things that are true about certain posters and their behaviors. If you don't lime it, then I'm sorry.

And no, enjoying the current stories doesn't make you less of a fan. Still, you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them. If you just like the books because the writer/artist/publisher says you should, then, yeah, I'd say that makes you less of a fan. I'd say it makes you a tool. (not saying you are)

So, there. That's my rebuttle. As for educating these "worthless, mindless cowards", I can only calmly ask them why they like books and ask them their thoughts on things so many times before I begin to remember that old saying:

"You can't teach those who refuse to listen".