Comics So JMS and Joey Q know they screwed up...

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Greg, here's th' thing...you had an idea and an opinion, but you started forcing it down people's throats. You presented everything as cold hard fact instead of what it was...your thoughts. Now, had you taken a different approach, people would have responded better. Yer approach to said responses have also given you a stigma. You ask fer intelligent responses, you get them, then you brush them off and basically say we don't have brain one 'cause we don't agree with you. That we somehow have been brainwashed and deluded.

Last time I checked, nobody liked Spidey's current direction save a couple people, and yet you come off like the ONLY person who gets things are amiss is you. Instead of accepting the possibility you might be MISTAKEN on a couple points, which have been pointed out to you, you continue as if WE were wrong.

 

[Gregatron]

What he said, man.

I hav eno personal probelm with you. You hat the current status of the Spider-Man books, so do I. You want him to be young forever, I don't. You've more than adequately stated your reasons, and I can see your point of view. That's enough for me. I understand alot of people on here have disagreed with you, but I've tried to stay out of it. I disagree, but that's all I can say. That, and any guy who goes to such lengths to write an essay about the defamation of Gwen Stacy's character is forever in my cool book.

Why can't people respectfully disagree with each other and talk about these things in depth in a calm fashion?

Do people take my comments as personal attacks because they're embarrassed by the fact that the read comics, and can't accept that comics are inherently juvenile and unrealistic?

 

[Gregatron]

Greg, here's th' thing...you had an idea and an opinion, but you started forcing it down people's throats. You presented everything as cold hard fact instead of what it was...your thoughts. Now, had you taken a different approach, people would have responded better. Yer approach to said responses have also given you a stigma. You ask fer intelligent responses, you get them, then you brush them off and basically say we don't have brain one 'cause we don't agree with you. That we somehow have been brainwashed and deluded.

Last time I checked, nobody liked Spidey's current direction save a couple people, and yet you come off like the ONLY person who gets things are amiss is you. Instead of accepting the possibility you might be MISTAKEN on a couple points, which have been pointed out to you, you continue as if WE were wrong.

You are free to ignore anything I say.

And, in their own eyes, everyone thinks they're right about everything. That's the problem.

Your contemptuous commentary is still inexcusable. I still object to you.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Now see, that's all well and good...except I'm obviously not the only one. I'm more vocal, sure, but that's just me 'cause I have VERY little patience.

I can also admit I'm wrong when my arguments get blown to Swiss Cheese.

 

[The Joker]

I've never had a thick skin. And I think that's why many of us read superhero comics to begin with.

Well I don't know about that.I've seen some real tough cookies on these forums in my time

Bottom line,if anyone personally insults you,then you report them.It's against the rules here to insult others,and frankly if someone uses insults as part of a debate,then it shows how weak their arguement is if they have to insult you to make their post look better.

So don't stand for it.That's my advice to you.

 

[Doc Destruction]

I think what you feel, Greg is PASSION. We are all very passionate about our love for characters, that's why we collect in the first place.

Don't take it personally until someone actually slings a name at you, which is pretty much uncalled for around here, seeing as we aren't face to face or anything.

 

[Gregatron]

Well I don't know about that.I've seen some real tough cookies on these forums in my time

Bottom line,if anyone personally insults you,then you report them.It's against the rules here to insult others,and frankly if someone uses insults as part of a debate,then it shows how weak their arguement is if they have to insult you to make their post look better.

So don't stand for it.That's my advice to you.

If you want insults, check out the last few pages.

When I speak of "fanboys", I do not necessarily refer to anyone here specifically. That's the difference.

 

[Gregatron]

Now see, that's all well and good...except I'm obviously not the only one. I'm more vocal, sure, but that's just me 'cause I have VERY little patience.

I can also admit I'm wrong when my arguments get blown to Swiss Cheese.

These things are subjective, to a degree.

But going back and examining the original source material to see what made it work and why is not "wrong".

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Now see, that I can agree with, but that's not how you've been saying it. Yer wording has Spidey in perpetual limbo forever and ever, which'd be even worse than unecessary changes they've done recently. Yer right, th' character has lost his core but it's not from character evolution.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

If I offended you... I am sorry... I really liked your Gwen Defense essay, BUT Recently you've been expressing yourself in a dogmatic way regarding your views.
Also it seems as if you were shoving your views down our throats... and shoving things down throats could kill people...

I know when one is passioante about something one tends to rant, or act dogmatic, but chill out a bit dude... we're in a forum regarding a comicbook character...

But you should add a cliff's notes to your posts every now and then... Just kidding!!! or am I? LOL

Now we should smoke the peace pipe, but I'm not into smoking... lung cancer and all that crap... so can you accept my apology?

 

[Silverstein]

Yes. Accept the apology, and we'll all be friends and eat my favorite thing EVER....lo mein!!!

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

But I prefer dumplings.

 

[shinlyle]

Bah! I want PIZZA! Dammit....everyone wants to change things to pasta-based foods, but everythign began as pizza!!!



kidding....I'm actually quite fond of dumplings and lo mein....

 

[Grim Goblin]

I'm man enough to admit when I get out of line, and having since cooled down, I can see I over-reacted yesterday so I apologize too Greg.

It's hard not to react when you get attacked from all sides and since comics are viewed as the bastard child of media, fanboys usually get it worse than a lot of other fans. Even the company we keep in business takes shots at the old school fans from time to time so it's easy to see why those fans can be a little loose on the draw sometimes.

With that said, I'm quitting smoking so it's only poetic that the last thing I smoke would be the peace pipe .

 

[Grim Goblin]

And now to get back on topic.

As I've said, comics were created for a certain age bracket (all-ages acceptable, but aimed at kids), and were designed to be infinite, designed to be mythic. Where would comics be today if a writer in 1943 had decided that in order to be "realistic", Luthor would kill Superman with a chunk of Kryptonite, or that it would be neat to see Wonder Woman raped and beaten, or that Batman become a fugitive?

This genre and these characters were created with certain unspoken rules which, if obeyed, would keep them "evergreen". Unfortunately, today's creators are breaking all of the rules, at great cost to the characters and to people who are invested in them.

I would have to partially disagree with you here. DC might have aimed at kids but I've seen a couple of documentaries about comics were Stan Lee himself said he wanted to write deeper stories for a more mature audience. If I remember correctly, he was thinking of quiting Timely Comics at the time because of that and his wife suggested he write the stories he wanted to write. The result was Fantastic Four #1.

That was the main difference between DC and the newly fledged Marvel back then. DC wrote simplistic stories for kids and Marvel wrote stories for teens and young adults.

Anything goes, these days. There are no standards of decency. Many writers write the stories to serve them, not the characters. What they fail to understand is that they are not important. The characters are important. Being true to the characters created by Lee and Ditko and Kirby and all the rest are what's important. The writers and artists, once anomyous, uncredited people the readers never heard of (or from), have now become the stars of the books. It seems that the fans now argue more about the creators than the characters and the stories. And that's wrong.

That however, was spot on .

 

[Gregatron]

Thank you all.

Perhaps I've been too narrowly focused lately.


But then, seeing the Superman and X-Men trailers recently have gotten me steaming.


At the end of it all, I'm just so...tired. Feeling such ennui.

Important distinction:

I'm tired of the bickering fans, the moronic "creators", the butchering of characters, the pain and the anguish, and the mocking.


But that does not mean I want to "grow up" and quit my interest in the characters.

And I don't mean to imply that I'm immature and selfish, like those I've criticized.

The fact is, I still LOVE the characters. I could read and reread books like, say Fantastic Four # 5, Incredible Hulk # 1, or Amazing Spider-Man 39-40 over and over again.

And I don't mock, I don't laugh, I don't feel an urge to "deconstruct" them. I accept the time and place that these books and characters were created in, and I embrace them, and my heart sings.

And then I see the "Iron Spider" on a cover at the local comic shop, or the Superman Returns trailer at my local theater, or Smallville on my tv, and I get that horrible feeling in my gut. The pain I feel when I see people who have no conception of who and what these characters are getting it wrong and passing it off as "high art" to new audiences who won't know any better.

I imagine kids saying how they hate that Gwen girl for betraying Spider-Man, or wondering if Batman and Dick Grayson were ever close. I hear them laughing at The Incredibles and its "funny" depiction of superheroes.


It's not that I take these books ultra-seriously. I just take offense when people (fans and pros) play fast and loose with them for their own pleasure, and insist on not taking them seriously at all.

They say every character is someone's favorite.


I simply feel that it is the responsibility of the creators (and even the fans) to uphold and defend the characters, to honor their creators, and to strive for dignity and creative integrity.


Superman must always be Superman. Topical references and fashions may change, Clark Kent may use a cell phone instead of a phone booth, but Superman must always be Superman. Devoted to truth and justice. Forever young. Forever brave. Competing against himself for Lois Lane's affections.


Batman must always be Batman. Devoted to justice. A master detective. A relentless manhunter. A shashbuckling, mysterious avenger of the night. Able to crack a smile now and then.


Spider-Man must always be Spider-Man. Forever young. The ultimate loner. Misunderstood. Forever agonizing over his decisions. Surrounded by friends and family. Forever dealing with girls, work, and life in general, while having to tend with costumed maniacs and ganglords. A hero by choice.


Is there room for interpretation? Yes. For breaking new ground? Yes.

But not at the expense of the characters.

But not to allow hotshots to "put their stamp" on someone else's work.

 

[Gregatron]

And now to get back on topic.



I would have to partially disagree with you here. DC might have aimed at kids but I've seen a couple of documentaries about comics were Stan Lee himself said he wanted to write deeper stories for a more mature audience. If I remember correctly, he was thinking of quiting Timely Comics at the time because of that and his wife suggested he write the stories he wanted to write. The result was Fantastic Four #1.

That was the main difference between DC and the newly fledged Marvel back then. DC wrote simplistic stories for kids and Marvel wrote stories for teens and young adults.

That however, was spot on .

Stan succeeded "Marvelously" in that goal. But he never forgot the conceits of the genre, or who the primary audience was. He wrote in layers. Simple enough and action-oriented enough for kids to enjoy, but complex enough and philosophical enough for adults who were kids at heart to enjoy.


If Stan had truly written for a mature audience (and the Comics Code Authority wasn't around), then we would have seen MAX-style comics back then. And they wouldn't have been SUPERHERO comics, either.

 

[Spydernorbs]

Marvel really did screw up spidey these 2 past years.

 

[Gregatron]

The first step is admitting there's a problem without resorting to scapegoats.


Be true to the characters, and you won't lose your way.

 

[Gregatron]

Now see, that I can agree with, but that's not how you've been saying it. Yer wording has Spidey in perpetual limbo forever and ever, which'd be even worse than unecessary changes they've done recently. Yer right, th' character has lost his core but it's not from character evolution.

I'm sorry if I've been misconstrued.

I'll try to clear it up---


I think the most potent version/concept of Spider-Man is the original Lee-Ditko high schooler. The lonely, misunderstood high schooler who can't catch a break.

That said, the college-age stuff is nearly as good, because, in large part, only the window dressing changed. Peter got a little older and more confident, but nothing REALLY changed.


The classic example is Roger Stern's run in the 80s. He broke new ground and told interesting stories with the more confident, college-age Peter Parker, but, at the same time he was absolutely in sync with Spider-Man as a character and the tone of his world and his stories. And he did so without imposing permanent (and damaging, in my oh-so-humble opinion) changes onto the character (like the marriage or the resurrection of Norman Osborn or retconned garbage like Sins Past and The Other).

Find a writer who can do that, and maybe we can be happy.

As it stands, the characters have been abused for so long now, things have become so twisted, that we're all used to it (like a victim who falls in love with their abuser), and it might actually feel "wrong" if we're not arguing and feeling badly about Spider-Man's sorry condition every day.

If that's "evolution", then we should have stayed apes.

 

[Norman Osborn]

As it stands, the characters have been abused for so long now, things have become so twisted, that we're all used to it (like a victim who falls in love with their abuser), and it might actually feel "wrong" if we're not arguing and feeling badly about Spider-Man's sorry condition every day.

If that's "evolution", then we should have stayed apes.

When the problem started is certainly debateable. But I dare say you'll find a daunting task, to find more than a half a dozen readers who wouldn't agree....what we see in Spidey today is no more evolution than a duck suddenly becoming a tree....it aint evolution...it's change.....and not change for the better.

 

[Dyeathrose]

I've never had a thick skin. And I think that's why many of us read superhero comics to begin with.

I have to say that I'm definately one of those people. IRL, I'm a very sensitive person, and I did start reading comics to escape it. I think that's probably one reason why I loved Gwen when she became the girl-next-door, as even though she had her fiery moments, she was still quite soft to me, and I could honestly see a piece of myself in her. Not saying I'd ever want her to change from who she really is, but the reflection and seeing how someone else carries themselves was definately a boost of self-reassurance.

Which is why I do wish to keep the Spidey-marriage; a healthy marriage isn't going to lose anything on little kids, or adults. The relationship that MJ and Peter were developing, even when it was rushed, was more than likely going to be romantic, which I don't think is very out of character for someone like Peter, as he doesn't seem like the hip-happening-swinger that JQ seems to want him to be.

With everything that has happened to Spidey in the last couple of years, him not dying from a heart-attack is definately lucky for him. I feel that Peter, even if he was kept ageless (never going past his late-highschool to college age) would still end up seeming old, as a reflection of the events he has gone through. What's hurting him is that the staff now I don't think really know what they're dealing with, but they know what sells. For them, that's the bottom line.

 

[Gregatron]

When the problem started is certainly debateable. But I dare say you'll find a daunting task, to find more than a half a dozen readers who wouldn't agree....what we see in Spidey today is no more evolution than a duck suddenly becoming a tree....it aint evolution...it's change.....and not change for the better.

I think the inherent problem began when the fans took over the industry.

Before then, it didn't matter if the fans agreed on anything.

But then, over time (in the 70s, 80s, and 90s), more and more professionals coming aboard were people who grew up as obsessive fanboys. The creators of the characters, the ones who understood the characters, left or retired, and their replacements were fans.

The way it used to be (particualrly in the Golden Age), the next creative team to come aboard simply continued on doing what the creators had done, in the same style, with no interruption of rythym. Because it was a job to them. They didn't try to reinvent the wheel every month (especially not when such reinvention might cause sales to crash and keep dinner from reaching their plates).

So now the fanboys are in charge. And they can't agree on anything, and they respond to what the actual fans say on the Internet and such. They feed off each other. Chaos rules.

 

[Gregatron]

I have to say that I'm definately one of those people. IRL, I'm a very sensitive person, and I did start reading comics to escape it. I think that's probably one reason why I loved Gwen when she became the girl-next-door, as even though she had her fiery moments, she was still quite soft to me, and I could honestly see a piece of myself in her. Not saying I'd ever want her to change from who she really is, but the reflection and seeing how someone else carries themselves was definately a boost of self-reassurance.

Which is why I do wish to keep the Spidey-marriage; a healthy marriage isn't going to lose anything on little kids, or adults. The relationship that MJ and Peter were developing, even when it was rushed, was more than likely going to be romantic, which I don't think is very out of character for someone like Peter, as he doesn't seem like the hip-happening-swinger that JQ seems to want him to be.

With everything that has happened to Spidey in the last couple of years, him not dying from a heart-attack is definately lucky for him. I feel that Peter, even if he was kept ageless (never going past his late-highschool to college age) would still end up seeming old, as a reflection of the events he has gone through. What's hurting him is that the staff now I don't think really know what they're dealing with, but they know what sells. For them, that's the bottom line.

As I've said, there's nothing wrong with a healthy marriage, and I like Peter and Mary Jane as a couple.

But, setting that aside, the fact is that Spider-Man was created to be the ultimate loner, the ultimate hard-luck case.

Roger Stern once said classic Marvel died with Marvel Team-Up # 1 in 1972, when Spider-Man, the ultimate misunderstood loner, suddenly teamed up with a different hero every month. That's when it started being more about money and gimmicks than about the character. I tend to agree.

 

[Norman Osborn]

IBut then, over time (in the 70s, 80s, and 90s), more and more professionals coming aboard were people who grew up as obsessive fanboys. The creators of the characters, the ones who understood the characters, left or retired, and their replacements were fans.

Do you really believe JMS is a fan of Spidey? Reading Molten Man 2, Sins Past, Other, and the ever annoying Adventures of Spidey the side kick, I'm convinced he's not only "not" a fan...I sincerely doubt he picked up a Spidey book before he came aboard.