Spider-Man: Pre-Brand New Day or Post-Brand New Day?

[kguillou]

There was a good 5-year period where ASM was on fire thanks to JMS. It wasn't quite as good as ultimate Spiderman but it was some damn stellar work on the character. Sins Past ruined that streak of course.

To be honest, its hard for me to judge because i literally grew up on the 90's spiderman stories, and when i was a kid i ate it all up, clone saga and all. Of course now that i'm older and wiser i can see that it wasnt a great era for spidey but it DID in fact get me to fall in love with the character, so that has to say something right?

 

[JewishHobbit]

My question for the folks that voted pre-BND: Be honest did you really like the comics before BND or is it that your judgment is that clouded by your hate for OMD that it's making you vote that way....?

Because as much as I hated OMD, the stories for the past 15 years (other than 70% of JMS's run) were complete dogs**t. Like I said before, the quality of storytelling and artwork since BND has been very good. Some has been tough to stomach for me (like Azaceta's art and some of Kelly's stories) but for the most part it's a lot better than the Clone Saga, Identity Crisis, Byrne/Mackie era's ect that spanned from 94-01.

Honestly I think Spider-Man was best around 91-the end of the Clone Saga. It did dip a bit after that until JMS came in and I honestly loved it all the way up until OMD. I think Sins Past, the Other, and Back in Black were all 100% better than the majority of what I've read of BND. Even the majority of OMD was better than BND until the last issue. The reason for me is that while what happened in those tales were controversial, it was still Peter Parker and fairly close to in-character. OMD's final killed that and it's just not been Peter Parker since then. There might be decent stories, but it's not Peter Parker in act, age, or demeaner. It's what he used to be but has since grown out of. It's Peter Parker's little brother Petey Parker, and that kills the BND stories for me.

 

[runawayboulder]

Sins Past
The Other

Before JMS the last time I though ASM's writing was good was Micheline's run. Pursuit by DeMatteis was good.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I loved Pursuit. I started reading Amazing Spider-Man with 351, the Nova/Tri-Sentinel storyline and it was great from that point on. I started Spectacular Spider-Man with the Child Within arc and the Web of Spider-Man book a few issues prior to Name of the Rose. I loved it all consistently through the end of the Clone Saga. Adjectiveless Spider-Man was hit and miss during that time, but still had it's moments.

 

[venom892]

I actually Im a big fan of early 90's Spidey before the clone saga.I was just a kid back then but my initial fascination with Venom after S:TAS was what turned me on to Micheline.I started to collect all his Venom issues after that I started to collect more stuff from him.It doesn't hurt that the trio of Mcfarlane/Larsen/Bagely made the run great.I have most of Demattis's Spectacular run and recently read Amazing #390-393 the shrieking a sort mini sequel to Maximum Carnage.I loved Shriek and Carrion and how he really delved into their minds.this was the last arc I believe before the Clone Saga really took off.They're hints of it in the story.

 

[kguillou]

I was a kid too in the 90s, i remember getting into the comics after falling in love with the S:TAS and it was smack dab in the middle of the clone saga. Even though i didnt have a clue to what was going on, i was somehow still fascinated with what was going on. It was all so different from the tv show yet i found myself loving it. God i miss beign a kid.

 

[venom892]

I really do blame Fox Kids for comic book obession.I mean a line up with X-men.Spider-man and Batman I got sucked in.Although I didn't collect comics until years later.I actually didn't actually buy my first comics until 2001 when JMS was on the book.But like i said my obsession with owning every Venom appearance lead to early 90's comic which in turn lead to me loving them.To me at least Micheline's comics had a great sense of fun.Demattis's was just at a whole another level.I loved how he explored Peter's guilt and mind.I honestly loved JMS's run until Sins past.I quit after Skin deep which I felt was a weak arc.I hear the New Avengers arc was actually pretty good though so i'm on the look out for those issues.

 

[runawayboulder]

I loved Pursuit. I started reading Amazing Spider-Man with 351, the Nova/Tri-Sentinel storyline and it was great from that point on. I started Spectacular Spider-Man with the Child Within arc and the Web of Spider-Man book a few issues prior to Name of the Rose. I loved it all consistently through the end of the Clone Saga. Adjectiveless Spider-Man was hit and miss during that time, but still had it's moments.

You gotta go back juuuuuust a bit further. Really #300-350 are kinda one big story. There was a lot of consistent plots running thru ASM. Micheline had that book locked down pretty good for a long long time.

Regular SM, I never cared for. McFarlane's writing was so god-awful, I still don't understand to this day how people were/are into Spawn.

 

[random_havoc]

I would bet a LOT that at least half of the people that voted for pre-BND Spider-Man have either read none of the issues or a mere handful... and while reading them with a pre-determined disdain in their thoughts instead of an open mind.

Even Corpy admitted that he voted "pre" without having read any "post" ASM issues...

So the poll is flawed... you would only get accurate results if the votes were by people who have read the majority of both pre & post BND issues... imo.

No offence, but that's bull. If people didn't read it then their opinion doesn't matter. If they did and (like me) think the new stuff is still inferior then they're just biased and there opinions don't matter. Yeah that makes perfect sense.

However you try to rationalize it the fact of the matter is that the people who voted are obviously spider-man fans and potential revenue for Marvel, and more than 70% would rather have the old status quo. From my experience in discussing this on other boards and in person, those percentages seem about right.
The longer marvel editorial keeps this up the longer they're going to continue telling their fans that they don't care what the fans want. And, yeah, that's a slap in the face, as well as a bad business decision.

 

[iloveclones]

God i miss beign a kid.

It gets worse. (But on the plus-side: usually the older you get, the more able you are to afford this particular habit...)

 

[JewishHobbit]

You gotta go back juuuuuust a bit further. Really #300-350 are kinda one big story. There was a lot of consistent plots running thru ASM. Micheline had that book locked down pretty good for a long long time.

Regular SM, I never cared for. McFarlane's writing was so god-awful, I still don't understand to this day how people were/are into Spawn.

Oh, I've gone back and read Spider-Man consistently from around 200 through OMD, every issue of Amazing, most Spectaculars, most Webs, and every mini and ongoing title from 1991 through OMD. I was working my way back prior to that (I've read some hit and miss, but not enough to say I've read consistant.)

That was a good run but I liked it better from 351 on. Maybe it was Mark Bagely, as I LOVED his pencils.

And I only liked MCFarlane's pencils when they were all in costume. I hated his Peter Parker, MJ, etc. But in things like Torment, I loved it. I like dark Spider-Man stories and he told them well. I actually really liked the first 7 issues of Spider-Man with Lizard/Calypso and Hobgoblin/Ghost Rider. It got weak after that though. I didn't like anything else after that until issue 16 with Juggernaut/X-Force, and my favorite issue of the whole title was 17 when he died and had to face Thanos. That was a great issue beautifully drawn by Leonardi or whatever his name was (I know him best from Spidey 2099). Then issues 18-28 were decent (Revenge of the Sinister Six, Infinity War tie-in, Captain Britain/Arcade, Hologram issue, Something About a Gun) but it was all downhill from there until the Clone Saga tieins.

And I'm rambling now

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I would bet a LOT that at least half of the people that voted for pre-BND Spider-Man have either read none of the issues or a mere handful... and while reading them with a pre-determined disdain in their thoughts instead of an open mind.

Even Corpy admitted that he voted "pre" without having read any "post" ASM issues...

So the poll is flawed... you would only get accurate results if the votes were by people who have read the majority of both pre & post BND issues... imo.

Hey, 'bats. As much as I have complained about BND, I have still faithfully collected ASM throughout, so I have read all the stories. There were some I liked as I had mentioned, mostly those involving Osborn. But the stories have been hit or miss. The bad characterization of Pete (notably drunken hook-ups and breaking into hotel rooms to have sex-while wearing his mask-with Black Cat) have made it even more distracting. The 2000's Spider-Man has been hit or miss too with a lot of bad stories (Sins Past, The Other). But, remember pre-BND includes the 60's, 70's, & 80's. So right there, pre-BND gets the win. t:

But, even taking that out of the equation, the bad characterizations add up with the "miss" stories to make me vote pre-BND.

I loved Pursuit. I started reading Amazing Spider-Man with 351

I'm sorry. (aside, as a big Lost fan, love your avatar) Pursuit (that's when Spidey was after whoever was behind his robo-parents, right?) for me marks the time period of Spidey "jumping the shark." We had robo-parents, I Am The Spider/Peter no more, right into the Clone Saga. In fact, for me...

You gotta go back juuuuuust a bit further. Really #300-350 are kinda one big story. There was a lot of consistent plots running thru ASM. Micheline had that book locked down pretty good for a long long time.

...marks the last real run of Spidey I enjoyed like I enjoyed during the 70's (post Gwen era) and 80's (Hobgoblin era). I usually look at it from an art point of view. That was the MacFarlane/Larsen era. Originally, to me, Larsen seemed like a watered down MacFarlane. But, he also had a Ditko vibe as well, so I enjoyed his work as well. Bagley seemed like watered down Larsen. I know that is not fair or true, but he didn't really do it for me. I liked his work much better in Ultimate though.

 

[Themanofbat]

Hey, 'bats. As much as I have complained about BND, I have still faithfully collected ASM throughout, so I have read all the stories. There were some I liked as I had mentioned, mostly those involving Osborn. But the stories have been hit or miss. The bad characterization of Pete (notably drunken hook-ups and breaking into hotel rooms to have sex-while wearing his mask-with Black Cat) have made it even more distracting. The 2000's Spider-Man has been hit or miss too with a lot of bad stories (Sins Past, The Other). But, remember pre-BND includes the 60's, 70's, & 80's. So right there, pre-BND gets the win. t:

That's why I said that probably "half" the voters who have said "Pre" haven't read the newer stories... I am well aware that people like yourself, JustaBill, stillanerd, etc... have read most of the books, and if you liked the "pre" stuff better, that's cool... your opinion on the subject is validated by the fact that you have read the majority of the books "pre" & "post"...

 

[Themanofbat]

No offence, but that's bull. If people didn't read it then their opinion doesn't matter. If they did and (like me) think the new stuff is still inferior then they're just biased and there opinions don't matter. Yeah that makes perfect sense.

See my above post noodnik...

And tell your Mom that you're speaking to the bigger kids again...

 

[Themanofbat]

God i miss beign a kid.

I wish I could remember being a kid...

It gets worse.

 

[kguillou]

I dont care what anyone says i would KILL to have Todd Mcfarlane draw spidey again. Too bad his relationship with marvel is so strained.

 

[runawayboulder]

Then issues 18-28 were decent (Revenge of the Sinister Six, Infinity War tie-in, Captain Britain/Arcade, Hologram issue, Something About a Gun) but it was all downhill from there until the Clone Saga tieins.

And I'm rambling now

Revenge of the Sinister Six was good. Larsen wrote and drew it and it was before Savage Dragon I believe. If you look at those issues and Savage Dragon issues you can see the resemblance in the craziness that goes on there.

 

[storyteller]

It is very difficult to maintain these type of characters without restoring some of them back to their status quo. Harry Osbourne died back when I was really young. Certainly a 10 year old reader today unless they track down these stories is going to be that aware of the characters importance. The writers are catering to everyone and not just the original readers.

Now back to the topic at hand.
BND stories have benefited from the restructuring. I do have a few issues though. I liked the new powers Peter had gotten. Before he was just Captain America with an animal theme.His little multiple identity arc showed that. I enjoyed him back more spider enhanced abilities and gave him a much needed upgrade. I read some of the new stories and think how much Peter would have benefited from his new powers.

Now some issues with Post BND is reconciling it with the rest of the marvel universe. I find it difficult to understand how Peter life is a wreck when he works on the avengers team. He should be rooming with Bucky or Danny Rand. Hell he could live at avengers tower and pay for a secret identity house. His life is a mess when it shouldn't have to be.

Undoing the marriage really did not enhance the stories. In the avengers comics he has Ms Marvel to fall back on. In the Spiderman comics they have shifted it to the blond Carlie Cooper.

Post BND would have been fully capable of happening pre OMD.

 

[kguillou]

Thats the thing, i think marvel went overkill on trying to restore peter to his 70's persona. There's certain things from JMS' run i wish they'd kept. Peter's new powers for one were awesome and the best part was that they weren't even significant changes. All JMS did was enhance his previous abilities, but none of them were really noticeable. The only noticeable one of course was the organic webbing which more less makes sense since his is a "Spider"man right?

I also wish they'd kept pete as a teacher. there were so many angles they could've gone with that. Marvel keeps spewing that "OH JMS DID NOTHING WITH IT!!", well....then DO something with it. It was a fantastic new angle but i guess peter cant look to old right?

 

[CantThinkOfAName]

I wish I could remember being a kid...

You could have if you weren't drunk all the time

 

[runawayboulder]

I dont care what anyone says i would KILL to have Todd Mcfarlane draw spidey again. Too bad his relationship with marvel is so strained.

Me too! Maybe we'll get our wish when ASM hits #1000 or something. Just don't let him write it though.....

 

[hippie_hunter]

No offence, but that's bull. If people didn't read it then their opinion doesn't matter. If they did and (like me) think the new stuff is still inferior then they're just biased and there opinions don't matter. Yeah that makes perfect sense.

However you try to rationalize it the fact of the matter is that the people who voted are obviously spider-man fans and potential revenue for Marvel, and more than 70% would rather have the old status quo. From my experience in discussing this on other boards and in person, those percentages seem about right.
The longer marvel editorial keeps this up the longer they're going to continue telling their fans that they don't care what the fans want. And, yeah, that's a slap in the face, as well as a bad business decision.

I don't get why we can't have a hybrid status-quo that combines the best of pre-OMD and BND Spider-Man. Despite what you may think, some really great stuff has come out of BND and I honestly think that if Marvel took a middle ground with the Spider-Man status quo instead of taking the extreme route, it would be as critically acclaimed as Captain America is.

 

[uchiha_itachi]

I agree Hunter. That middle ground being Mj and Peter back together imo..

 

[JewishHobbit]

The "OTHER" powers really were great additions. Organic weapon feels natural for the character, seeing in the dark, sticking things to his back, feeling vibrations through webbing, etc. Those were all great additions. Yeah, the singers were wierd but those could have been written out. I hated seeing all of those just undone. Have they even bothered to explain how any of that was undone yet since Mephisto didn't just magically undo it all now?

 

[Doc Ock]

Although there is much I have to read both before and after the events of Brand New Day. I definitely like pre-BND so much more.