"Subtext"

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Just watched it. It was ok. The flashbacks were a little annoying but I understand the angle they were trying to tell the story from. Nice way to start this arc and just what I expected from Gobby. He has certainly wised up, take out the webslinger nuff said.
 
I loved this episode. very great character development for Liz, MJ, and Mark.

Norman is either a fantastic actor or Gobby and Norman are 2 "seperate" people.

Montana (Shocker) owns the billiard room... nice business endevour for him.

Warren blackmailing Curt using the Lizard. that's trouble waiting to happen.
The Mark incident made Liz and MJ better actresses. He truely feels their pain because they are experiencing it. DUH

All and all a great emotional episode. now time to sleep

Note: The real story is Liz and MJ dealing with Mark's addiction, and the "Subtext" is Mark being Molten Man. at least that's how i perceived it
 
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It was a good episode, not one of the most spectacular ones, but it was entertaining and a good start for the Goblin's arc. Molten Man's design was ok, he looks a lot like Human Torch, but Mark as was introduced as a teenager, so they couldn't go with something more serious I guess. I like the fact that Spidey didn't face the Goblin yet, that he doesn't know who's behind Mark's 'incident'.

Nice story development between Curt and Miles, I already see the Lizard and the Jackal for season three, also Kraven is one of the few who were not arrested until now, and there's Calypso... put in there Morbius as well and we have one 'genetic freak' arc on our horizon for the upcoming season.

I don't see how Molten Man's story will continue because of the remote that's in Gobby's possession. Maybe he will learn how to control it in time, and maybe not. His story was sympathetic and defeat was humiliating somehow and sad.

I liked the direction of this episode, the flashbacks worked here, as they were incorporated in the progressive fight that stretched from the beginning til the end of the episode. It worked better than in 'Catalysts'.
 
I think virtually the only criticism I can think of is that everyone was able to recognize Mark's voice beneath Molten Man's fiery exterior, yet none of these people can recognize Peter's voice behind Spider-Man's mask.
I agree to a point but there is a difference.

Peter, Liz and MJ are all actively looking for Mark so it would be more natural to think of Mark and after seeing Molten Man it's far easier to recognise him under the armour than Peter under the mask.

I enjoyed this episode a lot with it being a reminiscent of season 1 episodes where the super villains were created but it had far more emotional impact due to the characters involved and the background players in the story. I really liked the use of the flashback device in the episode.
 
To be honest, I was half expecting this to be the final straw between Peter and Liz with her just dropping him at the end when he showed up. Instead he just told her he wasn't there as a photographer and it became almost sweetening. The ending was a rather downer bookend though.
 
I was half expecting the Green Goblin to have a little warm-up round to show Spider-Man that 'Gobby's back in town!' or something like that. But no such luck. I guess we won't be seeing Spider-Man vs. Green Goblin until 'Final Curtain'...nuts. But truth is I prefer Venom over Green Goblin. Venom just feels right as an Arch-nemisis.
 
Such an awesome episode, though I'm still not sure if I like how Joker... I mean Green Goblin is being portrayed. I wonder where they're going with the Liz and Green Goblin story arcs. It was a bit of a downer that Spidey still doesn't know that the Green Goblin is back; that fact made this episode feel like filler. Molten Man was terrific and the direction was fantastic. Kevin Altieri did a wonderful job here, even better than in his previous episodes IMO. And Miles Warren is being developed extremely well - I loved it when he blackmailed Curt; he knows the truth about the Lizard and isn't afraid to use it to his advantage. He's a sinister character.

Looks like Gwen isn't going to be wearing glasses anymore... Horray! Also, the interaction between MJ and Liz was great. MJ is becoming more emotionally involved with everything and less determined to stay single, while Liz is well aware that MJ wants Gwen to be with Peter, not her.

Oh, and I loved the change of scenery with the setting of the racecourse. I hope to see more episodes exploit different locations like this one did. But WTF was up with Green Goblin out in public in broad daylight, wearing a trench coat and glasses?!?!?!?! A subtle disguise, indeed... I suppose it reassures viewers that the Goblin is the Goblin, and that in some ways, it doesn't matter one bit who it is behind the mask.
 
yet none of these people can recognize Peter's voice behind Spider-Man's mask.

I believe this version of flash knows, he heard peter voice under the mask in the venom episode, and seem to be in good budies all of suden with peter (yah i know shan shan was involved but he could just as well asked rand)
 
So Gwen's keeping the sexed-up new design, then. I find the change still a bit jarring after so long of looking one way (not something normal in animation), but it's a nice design.

MJ hasn't really done much since being introduced; this was her best episode since Catalysts in season one. I also liked seeing her interact with Liz, since that's not a dynamic we've seen yet (Liz being suspicious of her for being a Peter/Gwen 'shipper was realistic; I hadn't thought of that before).

Mark seemed unbelievably stupid in a couple of places (when agreeing to the initial experiment, mainly), but that seems to be an in-story thing. I liked him remembering that Spider-Man saved Liz back in season one.

Great animation, particular in the fire scenes; the character models seemed to have a bit more detail than usual in a few places (hair, especially).
 
After seeing this episode, I've got to say Hammerhead is the biggest idiot for not realizing he got played. Seriously he did majority of the Green Goblin's dirty work without knowing he's not gonna get anything out of it.

What a tool.
 
Really great episode. I agree about the detail. It was a great ep, i'm really looking forward to who is behind the mask of gobby. Glad Gwen is keeping her look.

Haha, 'What a tool', HAMMERhead. Haha
 
great review guys who have seen it already. I hope to watch it a bit later today myself. And thanks for the poster who posted pic of molten man's looks. It looks ok but i will hold judgement to i see him in action.
 
I was half expecting the Green Goblin to have a little warm-up round to show Spider-Man that 'Gobby's back in town!' or something like that. But no such luck. I guess we won't be seeing Spider-Man vs. Green Goblin until 'Final Curtain'...nuts. But truth is I prefer Venom over Green Goblin. Venom just feels right as an Arch-nemisis.
Nah, I just expected Gobby to be a behind the scenes player. He's not going to confront Spiderman this early being careful not even to be seen by him. Otherwise it's just off to Norman's house again asking questions about Harry. He is not going to bring any heat on him just yet.
 
After seeing this episode, I've got to say Hammerhead is the biggest idiot for not realizing he got played. Seriously he did majority of the Green Goblin's dirty work without knowing he's not gonna get anything out of it.

What a tool.
Yeah, non to smart on his part but that's why he is nothing more but a stooge. Tombstone, Silvermane and Ock all recognize that. And Norman used it to his advantage having dealt with him.
 
a pretty meh ep for me. didn't really feel much sympathy for mark allen or really the reason why he needed to gamble if the allen's are rich enough to own clubs.
 
a pretty meh ep for me. didn't really feel much sympathy for mark allen or really the reason why he needed to gamble if the allen's are rich enough to own clubs.

... this post leaves me speechless. Gambling addiction is a disease just as much as an addiction to drugs or alcohol. Mark's character had plenty of sympathy.

So Mark and Liz's father owns a romantic bistro. Sure, they look like they've got a bit of money. But that's Moot. Gambling is something that the rich do. Probably quite a bit -more- than the poor.
 
i'm not going on about the gambling, it's about him having to undergo stealing a car or undergoing mutant experiments for.

you'd just rob you're old man or ask him for the cash.

it's not like he showed any sense of pride over the matter. they made it seem like he had no other option.

i just don't buy it.
 
Yup. Most poor men won't dare to risk the little they got.

As to the stealing of the car, he may have been too ashamed to ask his father to pay off his debt. And the experiment, I don't think he had much choice anyway.
 
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i'm not going on about the gambling, it's about him having to undergo stealing a car or undergoing mutant experiments for.

you'd just rob you're old man or ask him for the cash.

it's not like he showed any sense of pride over the matter. they made it seem like he had no other option.

i just don't buy it.

He probably doesn't want to admit to his dad that he's gambling again, and asking for large sums of money every few days would get very suspicious. Same for stealing- if his dad finds a large amount of money mysteriously missing, Mark's the obvious suspect. Remember, he has a history of this kind of thing. After blowing through his own cash, Mark probably wasn't thinking clearly (I think this is pretty obvious from the episode) and stealing from other people must have seemed safer than stealing from home.

And, as other people have mentioned, gambling is an addiction. I can't say I sympathise with Mark, as I'm not a gambler, but I do pity him.
 
I agree with rincewind on the stealing,but the experiment participation was a huge STRETCH, just becouse i owe you money i wont be you guinea pig.
 
within the context of what we are shown, nah.

it's normally very good with what it implies and doesn't. there's no father angle involved.
 
the experiment participation was a huge STRETCH, just becouse i owe you money i wont be you guinea pig.
Do you honestly think that the Goblin cared if Mark would have agreed willingly or not? Mark probably thought that it's easier if he just go ahead with it, cause after all, he saw with his own eyes just how dangerous the Goblin is.
 
Wow, a third episode this week? And two episodes left to go? Who would have thought? Anyway, here's a couple of thoughts I have about this episode:

As others have speculated, this version of Molten Man is more of a combination of the original Mark Raxton character and Betty Brant's brother, Bennet, and the result is a more developed a tragic character who is caught up in the downward spiral of being a villain even though he had no intention of ever being one. In some ways, though, this version of Molten Man reminds me a bit too much of the show's version of Electro, as both characters are essentially victims of circumstance who unintentionally become full-fledged super-villains. Likewise, I also liked the design concept they had for him, although I do agree he had a bit of a Human Torch look, although I can overlook this. After all, as Spidey observed, he also resembles an Oscar. :woot: Finally, I appreciated that Mark's transformation into Molten Man via nanaomachines is a nice update from the original origin, and the fact the show also incorporated the later idea that Molten Man's body heat reaches near radioactive levels--or in this case high temperature.

Of course, another reason why this version of Molten Man using a combination of Mark Raxton and Bennet Brant into the Mark Allen character works is how his downfall has had an effect on his sister, Liz, and Mary Jane. While it could be argued that while Peter, if had been a more attentive boyfriend to Liz, might have helped Mark sooner, Liz and MJ must also feel some guilt over this. After all, Mark is Liz's brother, and she knew about his gambling problem better than anyone; it was only after he became the Molten Man and tried to kill Spider-Man that she finally confronted him on it. And MJ also knew about his gambling problem as his girlfriend; and yet, even though she realized that she cared about Mark more than she let on, you could say that her philosophy of "non-dating dating" was probably what prevented her from getting close enough to help him. But then again, as Harry told Peter, when it comes to addiction, sometimes those who have a problem ultimately have to decide to help themselves. Whatever the case, it certainly will have an effect on both character's development. In the case of Liz, it's likely that this will be just one more nail in the coffin of her and Peter's relationship, the others, of course, being Peter's double life as Spider-Man, his attraction for Gwen (and by the way, I'm probably not the only one who approves of the new "classic" look the show has finally given her), and Liz's own jealousy. For MJ, its a realization that she doesn't really want to be in non-committal relationship, as clued in by her seeing Peter and Liz embrace and her standing alone after Mark's arrest. My guess is that if a third season happens, and if something else prevents Peter and Gwen getting together, perhaps this will allow an opportunity for Peter and MJ to get closer as friends and find themselves becoming more than that much to their mutual surprise and misgivings.

The best aspect about this episode, however, was the Green Goblin. I've forgotten how Steven Blum's voice acting for the character is just so perfect at conveying the insanity, dark humor, and Machiavellian cleverness of the character. In the comics, it never really came off too well that such a flamboyant, in-your-face character like the Goblin could be a behind the scenes manipulator since both characterizations seem like such conflicting traits, but in this case it works very well, serving as a reminder that, prior to his being revealed as Norman Osborn and discovering Spider-Man's identity in the comics, the Green Goblin did attempt to control the criminal underworld. And of course, the mystery of his identity still deepens. We get a suggestion that Harry, in his conversation with Peter, had a relapse of taking "Globlun Green." However, since Norman Osborn was present during the transformation of Mark into Molten Man, this could also hint he's the Green Goblin as he is in the original comics. However, and this might really be out of left field, given that the Goblin knew how the Mark's powers worked and his newfound love of blackmail, I'm wondering if the show is throwing us another curve ball and that THIS Green Goblin is Miles Warren. After all, the Goblin did mention how Mark was "never in control" and echo of Miles Warren telling Mark that he was in control of his powers, not to mention there seemed like a close up of something that looked like the control button in Miles' hand. And since Miles is blackmailing Curt Connors and this Goblin blackmails Mark, well, there you go. As I said last time in my comments on "Gangland," the Jackal is very much like the Green Goblin in a lot of ways, and so having Miles Warren be the Goblin this time around could be a logical choice, and still maintain the idea that Norman is the real mastermind in that he manipulated both his son and his new top scientist into taking on the role to cover his own tracks.

As for the structure of this episode using each of the prinicple characters to have a series of flashbacks that led to the fight between Spidey and Molten Man, I didn't find it all that obtrusive or distracting, and it didn't break up the momentum of this episode one bit like flashbacks sometimes do. Flashbacks as a storytelling device, are tricky things to employ effectively, and in this case it was done right. We also got another instance of using quotes Shakespeare, in this case a scene Midsummer Night's Dream between Hermina and Helena, to reveal the supporting character's emotional state, in this case Liz and MJ. Unlike "Growing Pains" which made this seem heavy handed and gimmicky at times, here it works effectively, especially when used to compare and contrast the characters from the episode's beginning to the episode's end.

So, all in all, this proved to be a tightly paced, decent enough episode. Looking forward to see how the next two wrap everything up.
 
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i'm not going on about the gambling, it's about him having to undergo stealing a car or undergoing mutant experiments for.

you'd just rob you're old man or ask him for the cash.

it's not like he showed any sense of pride over the matter. they made it seem like he had no other option.

i just don't buy it.
It's not always that easy. He can't even admit he has a problem. He got involved with some dangerous people and usually desperation causes one to take any option available. And besides this is only a confused kid we are dealing with who has an addiction.
 

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