Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 56

[hafizbat]

Spider-Man is too big to fail. He's going to be a big draw even on his 37th reboot.

I also think there might be merit to Disney not wanting to spend more capital, specifically Feige's creative power, on a character they don't own. It would certainly explain their offer to Sony.

Feige's comments at D23 were something along the lines of "We've told the story we wanted to tell about Spider-Man in the MCU."

Honestly speaking, he's not wrong. Marvel really exhausted the MCU connections they could make with Spider-Man between his 5 appearances. FFH was stretching really, really hard to continue to tie him to Tony Stark. Sure, it would be nice to see him interact with the F4 and X-Men, but those are a long way away, at which point maybe they can bring Spidey back. The precedent has been set after all.

I'm not seeing a big tragedy here.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't think it's so much they "told the story they wanted to tell" (considering they ended it on a massive cliffhanger), and more that Feige simply got to do what he wanted to do with Spidey, which was to have him play in the sandbox with his MCU characters, namely Tony and Cap, and play his part in the Infinity Saga with the rest. With those two gone and that saga done, I think so went his investment in having Spidey there.

 

[Web-Head]

I think most of us knew this deal wouldn't last forever. I wasn't a fan of what the MCU did with this version of Spider-Man, just so many changes for the sake of change and forced MCU connections.

I don't have the highest of expectations with Sony, especially since they'll probably force him into Venom 2 somehow, but at least Tom still gets to continue in the role.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I don't think they will put Spidey into Venom 2. But a post credits scene showing the character sounds likely.

 

[TheGuy]

For those that find MCU Spider-Man a bad version, like myself, the biggest criticism is not the lack of Uncle Ben but the immaturity and dependency of the character to other heroes. If Feige gave us a different Spider-Man and avoided treading similar ground, their wouldn't be much of a strong backlash against MCU Spider-Man. Disney and Sony are equally bankrupt in their creativity for the character.

 

[Web-Head]

I don't think they will put Spidey into Venom 2. But a post credits scene showing the character sounds likely.

Probably. I think a sort of "soft reboot" with Holland would be for the best

 

[MbJ]

You know, Disney is not doing itself a ton of favors in PR.

Given his many clashes with Marvel back in the day over their treatment of him and other creators, yeah, that feels kind of self-serving.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Spider-Man is too big to fail. He's going to be a big draw even on his 37th reboot.

He was well on his way to failure with the ASM franchise before the Disney deal, so I'm certainly not going to say that. We also heard the same thing about Batman being "too big to fail" only to watch him fail multiple times.

 

[hafizbat]

For those that find MCU Spider-Man a bad version, like myself, the biggest criticism is not the lack of Uncle Ben but the immaturity and dependency of the character to other heroes. If Feige gave us a different Spider-Man and avoided treading similar ground, their wouldn't be much of a strong backlash against MCU Spider-Man. Disney and Sony are equally bankrupt in their creativity for the character.

You really can't excuse MCU Spider-Man's mediocre characterization when there were not one, but TWO much, much stronger iterations of Spider-Man released in the same timeframe.

Spider-Man PS4 was a sublime depiction of classic Spidey in the world today. Into the Spiderverse was a bold and exciting take that pushed the boundaries of the Spider-Man mythos. Superbly executed and creative AF.

MCU Spider-Man was neither here nor there.

 

[hafizbat]

He was well on his way to failure with the ASM franchise before the Disney deal, so I'm certainly not going to say that. We also heard the same thing about Batman being "too big to fail" only to watch him fail multiple times.

Then we are talking about different definitions of failure. I'm not talking about an underwhelming BO for a movie, but the character at large. Batman is an apt example. The character suffered through Batman and Robin, and only a few years later struck gold with Nolan. Then Zack Snyder vandalized the character again. Now things are looking up again with a strong director and clean slate.

Spider-Man is the same way. He would have been just fine without the MCU. Maybe it would take a few years, but eventually Sony would get a hit. I mean ITS and Venom are blatant examples of this.

Cultural icons like Batman, Spider-Man, James Bond, etc are made of teflon. There will always be an appetite for them.

This idea that Spider-Man was failing without the MCU is silly. What do people mean by that, that Sony would have iced the character and stopped making Spider-Man movies? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

 

[Zarex]

You know, Disney is not doing itself a ton of favors in PR.


Disney Legend is an actual award. But I feel it is an award to force people into brands. And it feels particularly disgusting here.

The Mouse did end up cutting a well deserved though tragically late check to the Kirby family - Bleeding Cool estimated it being between $30M to $50M.

The Settlement Received By Jack Kirby's Estate From Marvel And Disney For Not Going To The Supreme Court

 

[kguillou]

You really can't excuse MCU Spider-Man's mediocre characterization when there were not one, but TWO much, much stronger iterations of Spider-Man released in the same timeframe.

Spider-Man PS4 was a sublime depiction of classic Spidey in the world today. Into the Spiderverse was a bold and exciting take that pushed the boundaries of the Spider-Man mythos. Superbly executed and creative AF.

MCU Spider-Man was neither here nor there.

Agreed. Get the writers who wrote that video game to write the next Spiderman film please.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

For those that find MCU Spider-Man a bad version, like myself, the biggest criticism is not the lack of Uncle Ben but the immaturity and dependency of the character to other heroes. If Feige gave us a different Spider-Man and avoided treading similar ground, their wouldn't be much of a strong backlash against MCU Spider-Man. Disney and Sony are equally bankrupt in their creativity for the character.

But... Has there really been much of a backlash against MCU Spidey? I mean... nitpicking fans are always gonna nitpick, but is there really any numbers to back up a claim that there's been a backlash against Holland's Spidey?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

For those that find MCU Spider-Man a bad version, like myself, the biggest criticism is not the lack of Uncle Ben but the immaturity and dependency of the character to other heroes. If Feige gave us a different Spider-Man and avoided treading similar ground, their wouldn't be much of a strong backlash against MCU Spider-Man. Disney and Sony are equally bankrupt in their creativity for the character.

In what reality is there "strong backlash" against the MCU Spider-Man?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But... Has there really been much of a backlash against MCU Spidey? I mean... nitpicking fans are always gonna nitpick, but is there really any numbers to back up a claim that there's been a backlash against Holland's Spidey?

Outside of the usual "I need Spidey exactly how I want him" crowd, no. You get those who are reasonable, who don't fancy this take. But any real "backlash" comes in the same variety as the "backlash" to Nolan's Batman. MCU Spider-Man has been the most successful Spider-Man adaptation to date.

 

[TheGuy]

But... Has there really been much of a backlash against MCU Spidey? I mean... nitpicking fans are always gonna nitpick, but is there really any numbers to back up a claim that there's been a backlash against Holland's Spidey?

In what reality is there "strong backlash" against the MCU Spider-Man?

Don't be disingenuous. I don't have numbers for you both if that's what you want, but we "nitpicking fans" will keep shouting how awful MCU Spider-Man is. Just read the Spider-Man threads to know if MCU Spider-Man is all praise. Yeah yeah I know we hypesters are a small section of the GA.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Don't be disingenuous. I don't have numbers for you both if that's what you want, but we "nitpicking fans" will keep shouting how awful MCU Spider-Man is. Just read the Spider-Man threads to know if MCU Spider-Man is all praise. Yeah yeah I know we hypesters are a small section of the GA.

Is the suggestion here that if they don't appease this, by your own admission, small demo that they have "failed"?

Look... I'm VERY critical of about half the product the MCU puts out. And in fact I far from liked FAR FROM HOME. I thought from top to bottom it was bland and very MCU by the numbers.

But my dislike doesn't magically make the film suddenly not a success at the BO. It wasn't for me but it apparently was for A LOT OF PEOPLE.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Don't be disingenuous. I don't have numbers for you both if that's what you want, but we "nitpicking fans" will keep shouting how awful MCU Spider-Man is. Just read the Spider-Man threads to know if MCU Spider-Man is all praise. Yeah yeah I know we hypesters are a small section of the GA.

Whose being disingenuous exactly?

Spider-Man: Far from Home (2019) - Box Office Mojo

Spider-Man: Far From Home (2019)

 

[TheGuy]

Is the suggestion here that if they don't appease this, by your own admission, small demo that they have "failed"?

Look... I'm VERY critical of about half the product the MCU puts out. And in fact I far from liked FAR FROM HOME. I thought from top to bottom it was bland and very MCU by the numbers.

But my dislike doesn't magically make the film suddenly not a success at the BO. It wasn't for me but it apparently was for A LOT OF PEOPLE.

And that I acknowledged. BO wise MCU Spider-Man is a massive success. No one has even argued against that. Lol.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Is the suggestion here that if they don't appease this, by your own admission, small demo that they have "failed"?

Look... I'm VERY critical of about half the product the MCU puts out. And in fact I far from liked FAR FROM HOME. I thought from top to bottom it was bland and very MCU by the numbers.

But my dislike doesn't magically make the film suddenly not a success at the BO. It wasn't for me but it apparently was for A LOT OF PEOPLE.

Exactly. Half of the MCU could disappear, and I'd be fine with it. But that doesn't change the success stories. And MCU Spider-Man is most definitely a success story. Especially with how TASM series left it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And that I acknowledged. BO wise MCU Spider-Man is a massive success. No one has even argued against that. Lol.

So it has reviewed incredibly well, has made a metric ton at the box office and the last week has basically been a wake online for the character leaving the MCU. Would you like to explain where this "strong backlash" exist? And if your answer is an internet forum, you proved exactly how ridiculous your original statement was.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Spider-Man is too big to fail. He's going to be a big draw even on his 37th reboot.

I also think there might be merit to Disney not wanting to spend more capital, specifically Feige's creative power, on a character they don't own. It would certainly explain their offer to Sony.

Feige's comments at D23 were something along the lines of "We've told the story we wanted to tell about Spider-Man in the MCU."

Honestly speaking, he's not wrong. Marvel really exhausted the MCU connections they could make with Spider-Man between his 5 appearances. FFH was stretching really, really hard to continue to tie him to Tony Stark. Sure, it would be nice to see him interact with the F4 and X-Men, but those are a long way away, at which point maybe they can bring Spidey back. The precedent has been set after all.

I'm not seeing a big tragedy here.

Sony literally failed with The Amazing Spider-Man...

 

[TheGuy]

So it has reviewed incredibly well, has made a metric ton at the box office and the last week has basically been a wake online for the character leaving the MCU. Would you like to explain where this "strong backlash" exist? And if your answer is an internet forum, you proved exactly how ridiculous your original statement was.

Once again, I've never claimed that in the GA MCU Spider-Man is anything but a success. Every media or place of discourse is fair play and context is the key. Unfortunately, we are in an internet forum and the backlash is pretty strong here. ****, critics of TDKR (on internet forums) continue to claim that it's not well received by the GA. Of course that's not true (look up IMDB score), regardless of your opinion of its qualities, but that doesn't mean a "strong backlash" against it doesn't exist.

 

[hafizbat]

Its Spider-Man + the MCU. That's the box office equivalent of putting Michael Jordan and Lebron James on the same team.

Box office indicates how many people watch a movie, presumably because they want to. But it's not a direct relationship to quality, so I don't know why some people keep using that as some sort of proof that MCU Spider-Man is good.

The next time anyone brings up FFH's box office take to defend MCU Spider-Man, I'll have just thing to say - Venom made 850m.

If you want to actually talk about the characterization of MCU Spidey, I can do that all day. But anytime someone speaks negatively about it, the only response I see is about FFH making a billion.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Once again, I've never claimed that in the GA MCU Spider-Man is anything but a success. Every media or place of discourse is fair play and context is the key. Unfortunately, we are in an internet forum and the backlash is pretty strong here. ****, critics of TDKR (on internet forums) continue to claim that it's not well received by the GA. Of course that's not true (look up IMDB score), regardless of your opinion of its qualities, but that doesn't mean a "strong backlash" against it doesn't exist.

Explain how what you just wrote is a strong backlash. Strong backlash doesn't come from such a small percentage of the fanbase, that it literally has no effect on the perceived quality of backlash.

A strong backlash results in Justice League. Not Far From Home.