Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 56

[OutOfBoose]

You’re a Batfan, aren’t you?

I'm a fan of Shazam.

 

[Boy Scout]

I'm a fan of Shazam.

So just a regular ole hater then.

 

[metaphysician]

Ragnarok would be a Top 5 film in the DCEU, Spider-Man series, or the X-Men series. The fact that it exists in the same franchise as Avengers, TWS, IW, GOTG, Iron Man and CW prevents that.

Most of those series, it'd probably be Top 1 film. . . *ahem*

 

[DACrowe]

Just throwing in here that that the Dark Phoenix International trailer is... pretty good? Not raving that it's great, but it's good. It's been so long since I've had anything positive to say about the Fox X-Men movies (certainly since the delay fiasco last year, at least), I wanted to throw that out there. Movie could still suck, but I'm happy to spread some brief good news.

 

[jmc]

Ragnarok is easily my favorite Marvel film and I also think it is easily the best. Every time I watch it, I like it more.

Captain Marvel reviews remind me so much of their other origins flicks. A lot of the positive reviews read as it being competently made, but not much else.

One of the reviews said it was a phase 1 films in a phase 3 era.

 

[Ninjablade]

That sounds like Doctor Strange. I hope it's at least better than that.

 

[The Batman]

I can certainly understand that someone would enjoy the portrayal in Ragnarok less because it's in some regards pretty different from the comics. I'm a big fan of Thor in the comics but for some reason the Ragnarok version just clicks with me. It's hard to pinpoint exactly why, but I'm sure part of it is because it's up until that point felt like Thor had left more potential on the table than the other two big Avengers.

I certainly think you can make a more regal and stoic (not quite the right word) version work very well (and I think he has been good previously in the MCU, just not as good as now), but I also think that such a character always risks being upstaged by characters with a more colorful personality, as some think Loki has done to Thor.

My favorite change for Thor in Ragnarok wasn't the humor though. It was that despite that he became more humorous he was simultaneously made both more of a badass and also more intelligent. I love how he is a self-proclaimed hero that just shrugs at many dangers as he's Thor, of course things will work out (until they don't), and I also love things like "it's just another space ship, you can fly this" or his casual retort to Drax in IW.

This version of Thor certainly isn't the only way to do the character, and who knows what the best version would be, but I do think this is a great version and I'm happy with where we are.

Honestly, Thor in "Thor: Ragnarok" helped me understand why a number of fans weren't impressed with Batman in "The Dark Knight".

As you said, they made Thor more humorous, badass, and intelligent. All throughout the movie, when Thor is humiliated or knocked down, he's allowed to get back up in an impressive manner.

I like Ragnarok then, and I like it now. Still my favorite CBM from 2017, and its as good as several movies that people would consider a "Top 5" MCU flick.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

In what way is the director not taking his own story seriously with Ragnarok? By having jokes?

Ragnarok is the tale of a man who is down on his luck, who also happens to be the God of Thunder. You have this Norse God who is lacking in confidence, even with all his power. That convey that through both comedy and drama, and in no way does the film not take his journey seriously.

The story of the film is very superficial, it feels obligatory or like an excuse for everything else(the jokes, the action, etc.) to happen. There are superhero movies with lots of humor that still manage to make their main stories compelling and engaging(GOTG2, Spider-Man 2)

There are a couple of scenes between Thor and Loki that feel sincere and those moments really worked for me, the movie needed a lot more of that. That's why I was happy with the way Thor was handled in IW, because it gave Thor as a character(and the events of Ragnarok) some much-needed weight.

This isn't to say it's a poorly made film, it's competently made and I actually really enjoyed it the first time I saw it. Unfortunately it keeps getting worse everytime I see it and now it's just another middle-of-the-road Marvel movie for me.

 

[kguillou]

For me, the humor kept taking me out of potentially cool moments. Right from the beginning we get an awesome set up: Thor is tied up in Surtur’s lair with him being taunted and tortured by this badass lolking demon creature, within the first three minutes Waititi is winning me over....and then I get taken out of the moment by that gag of him interrupting Surtur’s monologue as he twirls around the chain. And then theres Surtur pouting “its not an eyebrow its a crown!”

I dunno, I know a lot of you are reading this thinking “jeez dude lighten up” but I think I prefer a little bit more balance with the humor. I love how Wan tackled the humor in Aquaman for example. I dont think anyone would accuse that movie being anything close to dark or gritty. It was light, colorful, fun and humorous and yet it took its story very seriously. Patrick Wilson’s Ocean Master never broke character the way Waititi had his characters do consistenty in Ragnarok.

 

[Web-Head]

The story of the film is very superficial, it feels obligatory or like an excuse for everything else(the jokes, the action, etc.) to happen. There are superhero movies with lots of humor that still manage to make their main stories compelling and engaging(GOTG2, Spider-Man 2)

There are a couple of scenes between Thor and Loki that feel sincere and those moments really worked for me, the movie needed a lot more of that. That's why I was happy with the way Thor was handled in IW, because it gave Thor as a character(and the events of Ragnarok) some much-needed weight.

This isn't to say it's a poorly made film, it's competently made and I actually really enjoyed it the first time I saw it. Unfortunately it keeps getting worse everytime I see it and now it's just another middle-of-the-road Marvel movie for me.

Yes - what the Russo's did with Thor in Infinity War was phenomenal, especially coming off of Ragnarok.

I still enjoy it, but it's in that 10-15 range for me in the MCU ranking. I really like the action, Valkyrie, Hela is pretty entertaining for the most part and like you said, there's some good stuff between Thor and Loki.

 

[Ninjablade]

Patrick Wilson’s Ocean Master never broke character the way Waititi had his characters do consistently in Ragnarok.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, I don't think I'd say the characters in Ragnarok broke consistency within the film. When you view the film in a vacuum ignoring the rest of the MCU, each of the characters are consistent throughout. You could argue that Thor and Banner are inconsistent with their previous portrayals though.

I would agree there are jarring tonal shifts at moments, but it would be because of the character consistency. My favorite character is Korg, but I'll be the first to admit he has the two worst placed jokes in the film. The "piss off ghost" and then "now the foundations gone" are consistent with the character, but are ill placed tonally in the film. I don't even think they're bad jokes, I laugh at the Korg trying to kick Loki's illusion, but it is a sharp left turn after Thor and Loki's serious exchange.

 

[kguillou]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, I don't think I'd say the characters in Ragnarok broke consistency within the film. When you view the film in a vacuum ignoring the rest of the MCU, each of the characters are consistent throughout. You could argue that Thor and Banner are inconsistent with their previous portrayals though.

I would agree there are jarring tonal shifts at moments, but it would be because of the character consistency. My favorite character is Korg, but I'll be the first to admit he has to the two worst placed jokes in the film. The "piss off ghost" and then "now the foundations gone" are consistent with the character, but are ill placed tonally in the film. I don't even think they're bad jokes, I laugh at the Korg trying to kick Loki's illusion, but it is a sharp left turn after Thor and Loki's serious exchange.

True, not gonna lie, I thought his little bits with Doug “oh thats Doug. Doug is dead” were genuinely funny. But you see my point. I dont think Ragnarok NEEDED to be a full on comedy, it could’ve had Aquaman’s tone which was a fun, action adventure movie with humorous moments.

 

[flickchick85]

I love Taika's humor, tbh, but the thing I love most about Ragnarok (and was carried over to IW) is that it's the first film that actually made me like and root for Thor. And a big part of that is that it's the first time he felt truly heroic to me - he wasn't an arrogant kid who got a lesson in humility, nor the eldest son who's coming to take his misbehaving little brother home in Avengers, and he wasn't that waffling "I'm not ready to be king, I want to save and be with my girlfriend I've known for 3 days!" guy from TDW. In Ragnarok, he was a guy who'd pretty much lost everything, been stripped of all that had defined him, and yet was gonna stop at nothing to save his people, despite everyone around him telling him what a lost cause it was. He was proactively heroic, and I dug it. Taika managed to take a freakin' god and turn him into a heroic underdog, and I suddenly adored him. I was glad that while the Russo's went more serious with him, they didn't lose that progression.

 

[Ninjablade]

True, not gonna lie, I thought his little bits with Doug “oh thats Doug. Doug is dead” were genuinely funny. But you see my point. I don't think Ragnarok NEEDED to be a full on comedy, it could’ve had Aquaman’s tone which was a fun, action adventure movie with humorous moments.

I have a lot of issues with Aquaman, but I don't remember having any particular issue with it's tone. From what I remember it was fairly consistent throughout.

 

[kguillou]

I love Taika's humor, tbh, but the thing I love most about Ragnarok (and was carried over to IW) is that it's the first film that actually made me like and root for Thor. And a big part of that is that it's the first time he felt truly heroic to me - he wasn't an arrogant kid who got a lesson in humility, nor the eldest son who's coming to take his misbehaving little brother home in Avengers, and he wasn't that waffling "I'm not ready to be king, I want to save and be with my girlfriend I've known for 3 days!" guy from TDW. In Ragnarok, he was a guy who'd pretty much lost everything, been stripped of all that had defined him, and yet was gonna stop at nothing to save his people, despite everyone around him telling him what a lost cause it was. He was proactively heroic, and I dug it. Taika managed to take a freakin' god and turn him into a heroic underdog, and I suddenly adored him. I was glad that while the Russo's went more serious with him, they didn't lose that progression.

I dunno, I’m a sucker for a good love story (which,oddly is something we just dont get in these MCU movies) and I really bought into his and Jane’s in the first movie to the point where the ending still really gets me where Thor destroys the bifrost knowing that he’s destroying his chances of ever seeing Jane again. But he does it to save the world. Thats pretty selfless and heroic to me. I still kind of resent Whedon for completely disregarding that whole plot point In The Avengers but whatever.

But then, yes I agree, TDW made their relationship insufferable and i wanted Natalie Portman off the screen. But I thought Branaugh did a great job of cultivating a fish out of water love story in the first one.

 

[flickchick85]

Yeah I didn't buy that "love" story at all, lol. Mostly because in the first one, I felt like it was a flirtation, and that was fine. They knew each other for a couple of days and were into each other. Could've become something more, but they never got to find out before he destroyed the Bifrost because it was literally a choice between that, or letting it destroy a whole world. Hmmmm...go be with that girl you met two days ago and really liked, or save an entire planet - tough choice there! And that mutual attraction is all it needed to be. She affected him, that was enough. But then TDW tried to go full-blown epic romance with it, and I was like...was that what it was supposed to be before???

Branagh did a great job with the Thor/Loki/Odin dynamics, but "romance"? Not so much, imo.

 

[The Endless]

Ragnarok set it's stall out in the very first scene... and stuck to that tone throughout. It is the very definition of consistency.

It absolutely nails what it aims to achieve... which is a funky 80s style Flash Gordon esque cosmic adventure... But with Thor.

Now if you don't like It that's cool. But there is a reason it elevated Thor from an "also ran" to a character almost as popular as Stark.

 

[CB Fan]

Count me in as someone who loved Ragnorak. I have found myself rewatching it often and thats probably not gonna let up anytime soon.

 

[hawkflame]

Most of those series, it'd probably be Top 1 film. . . *ahem*

Logan, Spider-Man 2, Wonder Woman, and Deadpool say otherwise

I liked Thor Ragnarok, but I really could have done without the humor undercutting the tension in so many scenes. Particularly from Thor himself, who’s not really portrayed like that in the other movies.

 

[kguillou]

Logan, Spider-Man 2, Wonder Woman, and Deadpool say otherwise

I liked Thor Ragnarok, but I really could have done without the humor undercutting the tension in so many scenes. Particularly from Thor himself, who’s not really portrayed like that in the other movies.

That basically sums it up. Ragnarok’s a well done movie but not entirely for me in terms of the tone and mood I want out of a movie like Thor. I think holding back on the overabundance of humor and maybe taking the story more seriously wouldve made me get into it more. I like movies like Raimis Spiderman and Wonder Woman and Aquaman and most of the phase one MCU movies that had the humor a little more balanced and reigned in.

 

[Kane52630]

I really dug Ragnorak, but I'm one of the few who enjoyed the serious mythological tone in the previous two films.

They were able to get it right with enough emotional impact. And Aquaman was close to being a bad high school Shakespeare play.

 

[Kane52630]

For me, nothing in Aquaman was ever as good as these scenes.

 

[Ninjablade]

A shame Kenneth Branagh didn't direct another Thor film.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

For me, nothing in Aquaman was ever as good as these scenes.

The Thor/Odin/Loki stuff in Thor was fantastic. I really loved the first Thor. As good an adaptation of Thor as you could have imagined at the time. Yeah... I get some finding the Earth material underwhelming but I thought it worked. Gave me defiinite Donner Supes vibes in the best way.

 

[kguillou]

For me, the moment Arthur emerges from the waterfall in his beautiful shiny classic Aquaman armor, theme music swelling, Nicole Kidman proclaiming him to be “the one true king” and him slamming that trident down is a top 10 CBM moment for me. Moments like that are why I watch these things and it felt so earned. And by the way I never gave a s*** about Aquaman.